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Crime & Punishment

 
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Estavan Andrard and the World Traders Guild

First post
Author
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-10-27 12:23:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
No mate, you arent. But HE is. Did you read his blog and/or the other threads?
I read his blog and agreed with a couple of points. You seem to have taken that to mean I agree with everything he says, which I don't. Most of the time though when these people show up, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other though.


Dare I ask what you agree with? This guy is nuts. Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of it.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#42 - 2015-10-27 13:42:14 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Dare I ask what you agree with? This guy is nuts. Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of it.
Sure, it's posted back here. Effectively that wardecs limit new corp growth. The moment someone gets big enough (and 'big enough' is still pretty small) they become a target for veteran players who rip through them with ease. That leaves the options of playing solo or joining only established corps, which is bad for content diversity and player retention.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#43 - 2015-10-27 16:32:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Dare I ask what you agree with? This guy is nuts. Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of it.
Sure, it's posted back here. Effectively that wardecs limit new corp growth. The moment someone gets big enough (and 'big enough' is still pretty small) they become a target for veteran players who rip through them with ease. That leaves the options of playing solo or joining only established corps, which is bad for content diversity and player retention.


I maintain that setting a starting cost of 50m for decing a huge mistake. All this really accomplished was raising the barrier to entry for small entities, particularly those with young players, to get involved in hs PVP, especially against other small entities. Instead, these players are forced to group up in order to lower the cost-burden for hs PVP, which results in (generally) worse wars for everyone. Rather than having players learn to cope with wars and get introduced to PVP by a small group they have a chance of handling (not to mention are encouraged to settle slights on their own), they end up growing in size until the larger PVP groups notice them. Then their first experience is against someone that probably has higher sp, experience, and in some cases numbers, that they rarely have a real chance against, which is generally detrimental to their attitude towards PVP. Beyond that, it's honestly pretty boring from a PVP perspective, which is why BAW pretty much only goes after mercs and other PVP entities these days (generally unless contracted).
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-10-27 17:06:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Dare I ask what you agree with? This guy is nuts. Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of it.
Sure, it's posted back here. Effectively that wardecs limit new corp growth. The moment someone gets big enough (and 'big enough' is still pretty small) they become a target for veteran players who rip through them with ease. That leaves the options of playing solo or joining only established corps, which is bad for content diversity and player retention.


I disagree. From personal experience, being wardecced and having my alliance fall apart HELPED me get out of high sec and learn EVE. Therefore it was pretty good for player retention for me and the ten or so friends I went with.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-10-27 17:30:48 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
And I have forum-fu'ed with CODE. members who won't agree that SWATting another player (dropping a heavily armed tactical team on them on the pretext of a hostage situation or related violence via crank/spoofed call) is a form of attempted murder.

So don't lecture me about players being "toxic" or try to red herring me with chesters.

I've never even heard that term before, let alone seen it used on the forum before now. Any links or an explanation?

Markee Dragon got swatted a while back while live streaming eve, it's been a common (ish) thing in the US for a couple of years now though you rarely see or hear about it in relation to eve because here when you want to **** with someone, you can just run a locator and go **** with them.

Herzog had a thread with a link to the news article about the particular incident




This. Having dealt with this kind of training and the "combat science" around it, sending a SWAT team against somebody is serious business and IMO attempted murder. If the online community does not condemn and put a stop to this, politicians will, and not in ways we'll find beneficial to gaming.


Yeah man, we likely all agree. But thats not what this dude is on about. The point is he thinks space pirates are bad people for conducting in-game actions like wardecs and ganks. SWAT teams are not involved here.


Leto I don't think anyone who reads these forums would pigeonhole you as someone purely interested in farming rage out of mentally unbalanced people in highsec. The Thunderdome event is a glorious example opportunity for players to engage in honorable PvP of a sort rare in the game. You wear alot of hats in relation to this game I believe.

However, there has always been an undercurrent of behavior among certain elements of the highsec PvP/black hat population that I found unsettling. It's not limited to CODE, or even to EVE. It's this sort of childish, trollish glee that some people on the internet seem to take in seriously screwing with the guy on the other side of the keyboard, beyond an acceptable level, from behind the shield of virtual anonymity. They want to make people lose their **** and then whistle innocently while their target goes off like a bomb. The bonus room fiasco, and the fact that much of the rest of the minerbumping community seems to think those bans were unjustified and refused to call folks out for stepping over the line, speaks to what I think Lucas and Herzog are talking about. And I can't help but draw a distinction between a player like ParanoidLoyd who runs an extremely successful and extremely quiet ganking for profit operation, and those who view nonconsensual highsec PvP as first and foremost an avenue to elicit the most extreme possible reaction from the victim. Loyd may know that the idiot who just got his plex tanked iteron blapped by a thrasher is livid, but he doesn't seem to feel the need to go fishing for rage content. But there seem to be alot of players who tap into this larger digital trend of straddling the line of acceptable behavior in an effort to really **** with the guy on the other end. For them, winning EVE is finding the mentally/emotionally unstable players and winding them up and watching them go boom. I admit, as a frequent minerbumping reader, it can be highly amusing. But I also believe that sometimes lines are being crossed.

Obviously there's a huge difference between ingame griefing and out of game harassment tactics like doxxing and swatting at the most extreme end of the spectrum. Swatting is not a joke at all; here in the US it is very possible that such an act could result in death or serious injury. There's a number of stories about officers executing people's dogs and tossing stun grenades rather haphazardly in situations where such things are completely unwarranted. Swatting is something the law enforcement community is now sadly very aware of, and prosecutors will come down very hard on anyone caught engaging in this sort of "prank." You will see serious prison sentences as idiots convicted of this are made examples of. It is really a sociopathic use of emergency services as a deadly weapon. But as I said it represents the extreme edge of a popular internet subculture centered around pushing people's buttons from behind the shield of digital anonymity. There's far, far too much effort put into figuring out precisely where the line is beyond which such remote button-mashing will begin to result in tangible consequences, and carrying out shenanigans just barely on the safe side of said line. And from what I've seen, it looks like this game may attract a number of individuals who enjoy such pursuits and are offered ample opportunity for virtual fuckery via the potential for real loss in time and effort which is a hallmark of this game.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#46 - 2015-10-27 17:41:32 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
I maintain that setting a starting cost of 50m for decing a huge mistake. All this really accomplished was raising the barrier to entry for small entities, particularly those with young players, to get involved in hs PVP, especially against other small entities. Instead, these players are forced to group up in order to lower the cost-burden for hs PVP, which results in (generally) worse wars for everyone. Rather than having players learn to cope with wars and get introduced to PVP by a small group they have a chance of handling (not to mention are encouraged to settle slights on their own), they end up growing in size until the larger PVP groups notice them. Then their first experience is against someone that probably has higher sp, experience, and in some cases numbers, that they rarely have a real chance against, which is generally detrimental to their attitude towards PVP. Beyond that, it's honestly pretty boring from a PVP perspective, which is why BAW pretty much only goes after mercs and other PVP entities these days (generally unless contracted).
But then again 50m is negligible even for small groups. Personally, I think the problem was removing limitations on wardecs. Back when you couldn't have several hundred wardecs, wardec groups had to choose between targets and split up to cover more targets. Now there's no reason not to wardec every random PvE corp, since it doesn't affect your other wars. Individual line members can pick a couple of corps and chuck in the fees to wardec them, resulting in the mindless mass wardecs that now exist. If you could only wardec say 5 groups at a time, you've have to be very picky over who you want to target. Removing the need to choose was not a good idea.

Leto Thule wrote:
I disagree. From personal experience, being wardecced and having my alliance fall apart HELPED me get out of high sec and learn EVE. Therefore it was pretty good for player retention for me and the ten or so friends I went with.
I'm sure that's true for you, but it's not for everyone. I'd wager that far more people are put off by being obliterated in their early days by bored veterans than those that see it as a learning experience.

It's like RUST, when you join with a rock and a stick, spend 2 hours gathering wood and other rocks with your rock, then a guy with full armour and a weapons runs over and caves your head in. It's just no fun to be roflstomped by equipped experienced players, especially when you know that they gained no in-game value by doing it. They literally just did it so that your progress was stepped back.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-10-27 17:41:48 UTC
And the issue with wardecs is that they're utterly pointless. There's literally no upside to being part of a large PvE oriented corp in highsec, and anyone competent will use the tools at their disposal (neutral alts, corp rolling, avoidance of highsec) to render a wardec irrelevant. So you end up just culling the dumb and lazy.

My corp was just decc'ed by PoH and we never saw them. One of our guys lost his mission boat to a hub camper, aside from that there was no interaction whatsoever because most of us make income on alts or in lowsec and we have members with neutral frieghters.

I ******* wish they'd brought a fleet to Sujarento but I know better. If we didn't dunk them Snuff or SC would; hell the whole warzone would turn out to shoot highsec mercs in shiny T3's and you can be damn sure Mr. Santo would be waiting to collect some HG Slaves on the way home.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-10-27 17:50:10 UTC
Well said. Not gonna try to quote edit on the cell....

I don't disagree on the SWAT stuff. I was a military policeman and know full well the orders a tactical team gets before a dynamic entry. (Never actually done it, but trained for it nonetheless) and I saw the new story about the team who threw a flashbang into a baby crib. It's a terrible thing to even consider a prank, and if someone did that to MY house, it would end up in several casualties. (I mean I'm going to be unaware its police and a high likelihood that once the door gets kicked in that I'll run downstairs with the shotgun.. That story doesn't end well for anyone.)

I had agreements with both sides of the bonus room bans. On one hand nobody forced the idiots (yes, idiots) to do those rediculous things, but on the other it takes a fd up mind to come up with it. Who knows. The bans were also handed out rather randomly aside from the key players, and I didn't like that either but in the end it's up to CCP.

What I will stick by is my point that while I enjoy conflict and destroying other peoples space pixels, I don't expect to be called everything from sociopath to baby killer for actions in a game. Some people poke others until they pop, yes. But some people just flip out first, like the topic of this thread.

People need to get accustomed to losing ships. Maybe the next thunderdome will use t1 only so newer players (and some vets) can see that getting blown up isn't the end of the world.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-10-27 20:34:06 UTC
So having gone back and read that blog entry...the guy is a bit verbose and over the top at times but I don't necessarily disagree with him on wardecs. All the roleplay'ish nonsense about bribing being CONCORD aside - he's saying the same thing I've said repeatedly, albeit in many more words. The same thing I said in my last post here. Wardecs only affect people who want to fight, or who don't understand how the game works. There is no reason to run a highsec industrial corp other than vanity and to provide others with targets.

Well, not completely pointless. They provide a mechanism for dealing with structures in highsec. I know **** all about industry so I'm not sure what industry/structure related activities require one to be in a player corp but you could easily run a one man shell corp for structure purposes and not attract much attention - it's the big, dumb corps full of news and casuals which aspire to be communities for highsec PvE and some vague pretensions of learning PvP which catch the permanent wardecs. Because nobody actually enjoys bashing structures. Mercs will do that for ISK but it's boring as hell. It's the decs vs masses of mechanic/meta-game ignorant miners and mission runners and perpetual highsec dwellers which provide the content and the hilarious kills.

Wardecs provide an avenue for consensual PvP free from crimewatch/sec status consequences, a means for structure removal in highsec, and a means to engage in near-unlimited nonconsensual PvP with the dumbest and worst players in the game. They have zero effect on people that understand corp mechanics and have alts.

Is that statement incorrect?

The oft-maligned blue donut simply denotes the fact that much of the player base specifically the veteran player base rich in SP and assets have elected to form ever larger cooperative groups in order to reap the advantages conferred by that ever more concentrated power and wealth to provide themselves with an optimal gaming experience with respect to content and risk levels. These groups are hesitant to engage in all out wars against one another because doing so basically becomes a time and effort endurance test and runs the risk of incurring huge losses once again representative of great quantities of time and effort. So the majority of their content consists of engaging smaller entities which can't challenge them on a strategic level, can't compete at the cap/supercap level and thus can never pose an existential threat. The big groups don't want to fight each other and the smaller groups don't want to engage in fights where the outcome is guaranteed by the damocles' sword of supercapital escalation. This leads to stagnation.

What about that one?


Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-10-28 02:19:48 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Wardecs provide an avenue for consensual PvP free from crimewatch/sec status consequences, a means for structure removal in highsec, and a means to engage in near-unlimited nonconsensual PvP with the dumbest and worst players in the game. They have zero effect on people that understand corp mechanics and have alts.

Is that statement incorrect?


While I see your point, the answer is going to have to be "no", or at the very least " it depends". Looking at the killboards alone from the various multitude of merc corps in highsec, it becomes hard to say that highsec wardecs have "zero" effect. Do the people know the game? It would not really be possible to speculate. Some do, im sure, while others are certainly clueless. The point boils down to as long as there is profit in wardecs, there will BE wardecs.


Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The oft-maligned blue donut simply denotes the fact that much of the player base specifically the veteran player base rich in SP and assets have elected to form ever larger cooperative groups in order to reap the advantages conferred by that ever more concentrated power and wealth to provide themselves with an optimal gaming experience with respect to content and risk levels. These groups are hesitant to engage in all out wars against one another because doing so basically becomes a time and effort endurance test and runs the risk of incurring huge losses once again representative of great quantities of time and effort. So the majority of their content consists of engaging smaller entities which can't challenge them on a strategic level, can't compete at the cap/supercap level and thus can never pose an existential threat. The big groups don't want to fight each other and the smaller groups don't want to engage in fights where the outcome is guaranteed by the damocles' sword of supercapital escalation. This leads to stagnation.

What about that one?



Absolutely true. But it deals more with nullsec sov and less with wardecs. The blue donut sucks, but there is nothing that will change this until the Goons (and the likes of) DECIDE to change it. Sucks, but thats the truth.

But I will need to point out as well... the guy's logic isnt the problem. It is his attitude and assumption that EVE pirates are real life criminals.

I dont, personally, understand why highsec corps dodge decs. Will they lose stuff? Oh yea. But there will come a time after that, that they will start to win. SP only matters to the point of assets on grid, and that gap literally closes with each passing day in a newer players life. Active participants often garner respect with the aggressor, and those who do get advice, instruction, and most importantly in EVE, networking. And because I know its coming, no, its not really fun to get roflstomped by a larger group, but that is true literally anywhere in EVE. If I roam on out to shadow cartel land by myself, I probly shouldnt get upset I get blobbed and blapped by the locals.

This is also partly why I dont get the point where you shouldnt establish a highsec corp worth wardecing. If its large enough to dec, more than likely that means you have enough pilots to form a competent fleet (with some help). Maybe its just me, and my nature of welcoming conflict, but I view it as an opportunity to expose yourself to content.

If you get decced, dont log off. Dont drop corp. Avoid fights if you must, but fight back if you can. The mercs are your bad guys, and they are making your game HARD. Thank them for it.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-10-28 02:25:47 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Then their first experience is against someone that probably has higher sp, experience, and in some cases numbers, that they rarely have a real chance against, which is generally detrimental to their attitude towards PVP. .


https://zkillboard.com/kill/31227577/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/31438803/

Roll

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#52 - 2015-10-28 08:52:28 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
I dont, personally, understand why highsec corps dodge decs. Will they lose stuff? Oh yea. But there will come a time after that, that they will start to win. SP only matters to the point of assets on grid, and that gap literally closes with each passing day in a newer players life.

This is also partly why I dont get the point where you shouldnt establish a highsec corp worth wardecing. If its large enough to dec, more than likely that means you have enough pilots to form a competent fleet (with some help). Maybe its just me, and my nature of welcoming conflict, but I view it as an opportunity to expose yourself to content.
But they won't. A corp that does anything except specialise in PvP won't be likely to win against a corp that specialises in PvP. You shouldn't make a corp worth wardeccing, because it simply won't be able to function. You can't create a non-PvP focussed corp and win without swapping out and going "right, now all we do is PvP" in which case you've destroyed the whole identity of your corp anyway.

Leto Thule wrote:
If you get decced, dont log off. Dont drop corp. Avoid fights if you must, but fight back if you can. The mercs are your bad guys, and they are making your game HARD. Thank them for it.
I'd say go the other way. If you get decced, drop corp and either recreate if you need to or stay in NPC corps. If wardeccers aren't willing to push for balance because they want to hold on to the ridiculous advantage they have, then don't feed them content. Don't engage with them, don't converse with them, just wait for them to inevitably get bored and **** off.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-10-28 12:14:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
I dont, personally, understand why highsec corps dodge decs. Will they lose stuff? Oh yea. But there will come a time after that, that they will start to win. SP only matters to the point of assets on grid, and that gap literally closes with each passing day in a newer players life.

This is also partly why I dont get the point where you shouldnt establish a highsec corp worth wardecing. If its large enough to dec, more than likely that means you have enough pilots to form a competent fleet (with some help). Maybe its just me, and my nature of welcoming conflict, but I view it as an opportunity to expose yourself to content.
But they won't. A corp that does anything except specialise in PvP won't be likely to win against a corp that specialises in PvP. You shouldn't make a corp worth wardeccing, because it simply won't be able to function. You can't create a non-PvP focussed corp and win without swapping out and going "right, now all we do is PvP" in which case you've destroyed the whole identity of your corp anyway.

Leto Thule wrote:
If you get decced, dont log off. Dont drop corp. Avoid fights if you must, but fight back if you can. The mercs are your bad guys, and they are making your game HARD. Thank them for it.
I'd say go the other way. If you get decced, drop corp and either recreate if you need to or stay in NPC corps. If wardeccers aren't willing to push for balance because they want to hold on to the ridiculous advantage they have, then don't feed them content. Don't engage with them, don't converse with them, just wait for them to inevitably get bored and **** off.


Because we want the game to be easy right? Just herpdederp mission running and mining. Fun times.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#54 - 2015-10-28 13:55:13 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Because we want the game to be easy right? Just herpdederp mission running and mining. Fun times.
No, we don't, but wardecs aren't the only source of a challenge for other players. Not to mention that for the wardeccers it's already stupidly easy. So effectively what you're saying is that wardecs should remain easy for the attackers and continue to make it virtually impossible for a sizable non-PvP focussed corp to exist, because without it you can't see any other method of adding challenge and risk to the existing mechanics.

I'd like to see challenge all round. I'd like to see wardeccers have to make choices rather than just "dec all the things" and attack capable people for more rewards rather than farming nubs. At the same time I'd like to see PvE mechanics shaken up so that they are inherently challenging in themselves. Most importantly, I'd like to see different types of players running corporations that play in various ways and not being immediately put down because they don't focus entirely on PvP, because the way I see it, that's the biggest barrier to player retention. The best option for a highsec non-PvPer (or even someone who only PvPs some of the time) is to be in a solo corp or an NPC one. That's a bad thing.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Cyclo Hexanol
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#55 - 2015-10-28 20:21:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Because we want the game to be easy right? Just herpdederp mission running and mining. Fun times.
No, we don't, but wardecs aren't the only source of a challenge for other players. Not to mention that for the wardeccers it's already stupidly easy.


This argument is fallacious because it is appealing to yourself as an authority but you are an unqualified authority. This isn't meant to be an attack but rather I'm trying to get you to see that you have spoken in a few situations on this forum where you made a generalization about your argumentative opponent that was not based off of personal experience.

I have been on both sides of wardeccing.

A while after joining the game my first alliance got wardecced by Brick Squad (Or however they liked to spell it) and camped us into station in hisec with a bunch of ships including Kronoses, T3s, HACs and Falcons. After being camped in for an extended period we more or less said to hell with it and undocked in a small fleet of mostly tech 1 ships and mopped the floor with them. Killed a proteus andsome other things(been a while) and even got a high grade pod. Keep in mind this was an alliance that was composed of mostly characters less than 6 months old. After that they stopped bothering us.

First thing I did after leaving nullsec was fall into the trap of thinking "oh hey hisec wardeccing should be easy" and came to hisec to for The Dickwad Squad and go fly around for pew. The first thing I noticed was that dec assists were free.... And when you send out wardecs you generally get some mercs piling on your decs (See: Marmite(<3)). This is also just one of the difficulties. As a deccer I have also had my enemies set up some pretty brilliant traps that resulted in me getting scrammed by an Orca (Never a good day).

Naturally the counter example to this would be to join a large hub camping group and do easy hub camping but you will find that there are a lot of very competent groups that will hunt you down and kill you. (See: Break-A-Wish). I was actually flying with Adriel Malakai and his scoundrel band of **** swaggling swashbucklers when we teamed up to kill Marmite. We tracked a target in Amarr before he saw one of us and JUMPCLONED to Hek to try and escape us. To which we then flew to and promptly killed his Hictor.

The ever present aspect about this game is that it is difficult. It doesn't matter where you are trying to look for trouble. Trouble will always come find you instead.

I would like to challenge you to make your own wardeccing corp and try to fly around a bit and get into some trouble. Or maybe even join another group of 5 or less pilots that already do wardeccing. You will find that hisec isn't always the theme park people proclaim it to be.

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King of Stating the Obvious 2015

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Elected by: Random forum alt

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Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-10-28 21:12:28 UTC
Lucas I think you argue for arguments sake. I'm not gonna bother restating the points or asking you questions you'll trapse around.

Wars provide content where none previously exsisted. Enough said.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#57 - 2015-10-29 08:52:54 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas I think you argue for arguments sake. I'm not gonna bother restating the points or asking you questions you'll trapse around.

Wars provide content where none previously exsisted. Enough said.
No, I argue where I have an opposing opinion, and you're not gonna bother because you have no interest in a reasonable discussion, you've made that clear. So with that in mind:

Wars block content where content previously existed. Enough said.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#58 - 2015-10-29 09:01:54 UTC
Cyclo Hexanol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Because we want the game to be easy right? Just herpdederp mission running and mining. Fun times.
No, we don't, but wardecs aren't the only source of a challenge for other players. Not to mention that for the wardeccers it's already stupidly easy.
This argument is fallacious because it is appealing to yourself as an authority but you are an unqualified authority. This isn't meant to be an attack but rather I'm trying to get you to see that you have spoken in a few situations on this forum where you made a generalization about your argumentative opponent that was not based off of personal experience.

I have been on both sides of wardeccing.
So have I *shrug*. It's not my fault that you make assumptions about my experience.

All you've done here is cite a single experience from a single point of view and then said "because we were terrible, wardecs are obviously challenging", yet the existence of several groups with hundreds of wardecs active every week and the non-existence of sizable non-PvP corps in highsec shows a fundamental balance issue. Amusingly you even point to it yourself if your anecdote. You couldn't grow as a group because existing wardec groups have an easy time keeping you down, and you were in a PvP focussed group. Imagine now that you are in a group with 80% of you are trying to do PvE, industry or trading, and perhaps you'll understand why the system is borked.

Simply put, creating a sizable corp in highsec shouldn't only be an option if you are focussed purely on PvP. There should be variety.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-10-29 12:04:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas I think you argue for arguments sake. I'm not gonna bother restating the points or asking you questions you'll trapse around.

Wars provide content where none previously exsisted. Enough said.
No, I argue where I have an opposing opinion, and you're not gonna bother because you have no interest in a reasonable discussion, you've made that clear. So with that in mind:

Wars block content where content previously existed. Enough said.


Please tell me what content wars block. Mining OP's?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#60 - 2015-10-29 12:19:27 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Please tell me what content wars block. Mining OP's?
Any sizable non-PvP focussed highsec corp. If you want to join a highsec corp you either have to select a full on PvP corp or a tiny corp that will at some point get big enough to be stomped all over by wardeccers. It's why groups like red-frog operate entirely from NPC alts, because anything else would be suicide.

If joining player corps improves retention, and players join for a variety of different playstyles, then corps in the starting area of space should be able to support the full array of playstyles. But they can't, because wardecs ensure that only other wardec and PvP groups exist beyond a minuscule scale in highsec.

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