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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#161 - 2015-10-17 13:49:36 UTC
Mixu Paatelainen wrote:
Will a 4 small Smartbomb punisher be able to kill a capsule?


small smartbombs have no range
Count Szadek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2015-10-17 14:26:53 UTC
Breacher: Good Change
Tormentor: Good Gange
Rifter: Would really like to see actually more agility on this to accompany the pg boost.
Slasher: Good Change
Tristan: Good Change if the Navy Maulus was not coming. I feel that there should be some disparity between the two hulls other then maulus having more bonuses to tackle etc.
Punisher: Could use some more agility as well. all the other 2 mid slot amarr frigs are hyper agile, and thats why they are good. i would say inreasing its agility and give it a tracking bonus instead of laser cap usage would be awesome. that would give it a real chance of doing things while keeping the 2 slot mid
Firetail: Love It
Hookbill: Like the change
Navy Osprey: would actually like to see this become a navy eagle/moa medium, i feel it would get more use if this happened
Sacrilege: Good Change
Worm: Good Change
Gila: Good Change
Orthrus: Acceptable
Barghest: I Like it

I really feel that 1 more ship needs a rebalance and could def be added to this list: The Stabber
- Please redo it
Serenit Adoulin
Stille Gewalt
#163 - 2015-10-17 14:35:35 UTC
Can we please get some love for the vagabond now as well?

4 midslots for a shiledtanking cruiser is pretty silly. Especially if it is t2 and costs 170m.

If you are to afraid of a t2 dual xl asb cyclone make it with low cpu/powergrid so you can fit a normal booster at least.

thanks.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#164 - 2015-10-17 14:38:13 UTC
Mad Abbat wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:

Tactics
I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig.


you will get caught instatly, as 2.6k on mwd is less than t2 ab fit succubus, lol.

it will apply more or less 0 dps in close range as SFPL can't track in close range, with beam it even worse.

current iteration of changes is just.... bad.


It is faster than a succubus, but the point is that's solid for a t1 frig anyway, and i'd take it 1v1 against any of the other t1 frigs. You can bring drop booster if you're worried about tracking issues but I think it should be fine as long as you make some kind of effort and don't immediately let yourself get caught. I had to calculate everything manually but when it's on EFT you'll see there are lots of interesting fits you can make out of it even for solo, i could probably drop the plates and fit double nano, drop the trimark for another t1 locus and but it will shine in gangs. It got a huge fitting buff an extra low slot and more dps than before.

[Punisher, Punisher fit]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Warp Disruptor I

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II


DPS
Scorch: 146 cold / 169 heated 16.9 +3.13km
Navy Radio: 76 cold / 88 heated 19.3 +3.13km
Conflag: 205 cold / 236 heated 6.02 +3.13km

Tank
2.95k EHP

Mobillity
3473m/s cold 4947m/s heated
3.33 seconds align

Tactics
Kite



[Punisher, Punisher fit]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates

Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I

DPS
Void: 250dps cold 288dps with heat 1.69 +1.56km
Caldari Antimatter: 224dps cold 258dps with heat 1.13 +3.13km
Null: 179dps cold 206dps with heat 3.15 +4.38km



Tank
9.23k EHP


Mobility
887m/s 1129 with heat
5.3 seconds align time

Tactics
sit on warp in and melt stuff
ArmyOfMe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#165 - 2015-10-17 14:38:46 UTC
Serenit Adoulin wrote:
Can we please get some love for the vagabond now as well?

4 midslots for a shiledtanking cruiser is pretty silly. Especially if it is t2 and costs 170m.

If you are to afraid of a t2 dual xl asb cyclone make it with low cpu/powergrid so you can fit a normal booster at least.

thanks.

Not gonna say no to a extra mid to my favourit ship seeing as i use it as a close range tackler =D

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Borroed Thyme
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2015-10-17 15:15:28 UTC
Garrett Osinov wrote:
Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ?

Gila was an exellent PvE ship !

Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!!


How exactly do you consider the Skill Points you invested in the Gila wasted, so that you need a refund?

Gallente Cruiser.... Ability to fly all of the T1 and faction cruisers in the Gallente line, and pre-req for T2s

Caldari Cruiser.... Ditto, the above with the Caldari line of Cruisers.

Missile skills.... Oh no... you wasted points on missiles which can be applied to many ships along the Caldari (Caracal, Cerberus, Drake, Osprey Navy, etc), Amarr (Prophecy, Sacrilege, Dragoon, Vengeance, etc), and Minmatar (Breacher, Scythe Fleet, Bellicose, Talwar, etc.) line of ships.

Drone skills.... like Drones aren't important in the Gallente meta (Vexor, Myrmidon, Tristan, Ishtar, Dominix), or the 90% of other ships in the other racial lines that can field some drones.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#167 - 2015-10-17 15:40:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie says....

"Tormentor:
Another ship that's in a pretty decent place but that tends to be overlooked, so we're adding this nice quality of life improvement that also fits the general Amarrian theme of having plenty of backup drones.
  • +10m3 Dronebay"

    • If you don't know how good tormentor is already I have to as k do you actually play this game or live in a CCP vacuum ?

    "Rifter and Slasher:
    Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs.
  • Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG
  • Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG"

    • Unconvinced, feel arty frigs will still be crap, if anything I think slasher could use a little more base armor to help it last in it's usual mode of attack (speed tanking / TDing)

    "Tristan:
    Slight speed drop to the current top-dog of T1 frigates to help even out the field. The Tristan is a great and flexible ship, and doesn't really need to be quite as fast as it currently is.
  • -10 m/s"

    • This is a joke right... it's not nearly enough, tristan can fit way too much, unless you plan on giving hull rigs a meaningful pvp based drawback ... do you ?

    "Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level"

    • Might as well just rename this "obvious bait brick tank" altho I guess it will be ok in a small gang ?

    "Worm and Gila:
    Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit by bringing their slot numbers in line with most other drone ships. These represent fairly significant nerfs but we feel the ships remain among the strongest in their classes. Currently we have decided to leave the Rattlesnake alone, partially as it's not as dominant in its class as the smaller ships. However we won't rule out future changes.
  • Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU
  • Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU"

    • Funded by cancer research... good.

    "Orthrus:
    Another extremely dominant ship, this nerf is relatively mild compared to the Orthrus' strength but we feel pretty comfortable moving incrementally here. I know that many people will be unhappy that we're not nerfing the Orthrus harder at this time, but we feel that especially combined with the addition of the missile disruptors we are best served by making this change (which is quite significant by most standards) and observing the results before moving further.
  • Reduce damage bonus to +15% per level"

    • Funded by cancer research... good.
    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #168 - 2015-10-17 15:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Excellent changes! I wish the Tristan was nerfed more but eh, that's about it for the complaints.

    Bonus points for the damage profile of missile ships;

    Quote:
    25% Kin, 20% Em/Therm/Exp


    That's the kind of kinetic lock I can get behind! Big smile

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
    Yli Canis
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #169 - 2015-10-17 16:38:05 UTC
    The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s.

    Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630.

    The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave.


    So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by.


    I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask *why*?
    Naomi Anthar
    #170 - 2015-10-17 16:54:09 UTC
    Yeah i agree with some voices there i don't want to see ac punishers or blaster.

    Screw it as was said keep ship as it was and just add another low....
    Enslaved Mistress
    The Destiny Logistics.
    #171 - 2015-10-17 18:18:09 UTC
    SadStill no Caldari/Minmatar ships though huh. . . Wow. . .
    Nafensoriel
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #172 - 2015-10-17 19:30:49 UTC
    Yli Canis wrote:
    The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s.

    Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630.

    The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave.


    So basically what this nerf really amounts to is a huge hit to the income of Wormhole corps who do not run escalations or carrier rat; The already-huge gap in income between the C5/6 krabs and the rest of Jspace will continue to widen. The rich get richer or remain equally rich, the poor just lost their main money-maker and it just got that much more difficult to get by.


    I'm sure there are many means of nerfing it for PvP without crushing its PvE utility, and honestly wonder if you guys have considered the massive impact this nerf will have to your wormhole dwellers. There has got to be a better way to go about this....Unless this is just a straight-on nerf to sub-C4 Jspace income? In which case I would emphatically ask *why*?


    Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else.
    So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU.
    Nafensoriel
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #173 - 2015-10-17 19:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nafensoriel
    Enslaved Mistress wrote:
    SadStill no Caldari/Minmatar ships though huh. . . Wow. . .



    There is a reason for this. On earth this matchup would be akin to high end engineers working with rednecks(nothing wrong with rednecks.. I R One).

    IF such a project was ever completed.. it would overpower everything in existence... trouble is the rednecks get the engineers drunk.. one of them says "hey yall watch this" and the nearby sun explodes erasing the project from existence.

    Seriously "Redneck nuclear physicist".. Nothing more epic exists... and nothing more terrifying exists in nature.


    /edit.. Just for example..
    Picture a pack of engineers adding hybrid railgun upgrades to a 2500mm tactical bus launcher the nag uses. Picture them upgrading the nuclear warheads to antimatter rounds. Now you see why such projects are never completed.
    RealityDaytrip
    Nisroc Angels
    The Obsidian Front - Reborn
    #174 - 2015-10-17 19:38:01 UTC
    I agree with most of the proposed nerfs/buffs, though i do believe the othrus should have gotten the cyclone treatment and had its light missile bonus taken away. The sac buff has me wondering though, is it really the least flown t2 cruiser? I feel like the muninn is in such a worse place right now, and that could easily be solved with 1 more midslot. Currently there is no role that it isn't outclassed in.
    Yli Canis
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #175 - 2015-10-17 20:22:19 UTC
    Nafensoriel wrote:
    [quote=Yli Canis]
    Unfortunately to balance anything in eve against WH space would greatly imbalance things for everywhere else.
    So yes... the pirate cruiser with a battleship grade tank is losing its battleship grade tank in favor of a cruiser grade tank. Sucks for WH. Is balanced for literally everywhere else. Whrs need to just take one for the team and HTFU.


    Just sayin', there are better, less hamhanded ways of going about bringing the gila in line with other (pirate) cruisers.
    Perrdy Lady
    Doomheim
    #176 - 2015-10-17 20:58:05 UTC
    Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU

    That's an insane nerf.
    Grorious Reader
    Mongorian Horde
    #177 - 2015-10-17 21:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grorious Reader
    That gila nerf is terrible.

    I agree that the ship is OP and needs a nerf, but removing a low slot is the wrong way to do it. This isn't just a huge nerf to the ship's damage output. It's a huge nerf to the number of things the ship can be used for as well. For example, removing that low slot basically makes the Gila useless in higher class wormhole PvE, where it was once a very fun and viable ship. You could have just knocked the drone damage bonus down a bit, or reduced the base shield HP. I award you no points CCP, and may god have mercy on your soul.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #178 - 2015-10-17 22:51:15 UTC
    what's with all these gila abusers who have no idea what they're talking about
    Perrdy Lady
    Doomheim
    #179 - 2015-10-17 23:07:16 UTC
    Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore.
    Dato Koppla
    Balls Deep Inc.
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #180 - 2015-10-17 23:25:28 UTC
    The Gila supporters don't care about balance. Their reasons are 'it's fun and great'. They're just butthurt because they are using it for some sort of PvE and now have to switch ships or use a different fit for the Gila.