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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Author
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#141 - 2015-10-17 06:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mad Abbat
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Punisher changes look excellent.

I think CCP is correct in not giving it a third mid slot.

There's no point in so many ships being in the game if they are all made to be the same.

The 5th low makes it unique amongst T1 frigs, it doesn't have to be another solo frigate.


Yes 5th slot is great, but you can't fit inything in it, because it have on extra CPU.

One resist plating won't make it shine. Damage output is still pathetic, it needs t2 lasers to work, so can't be "derpfit to same extend as atron or tristan.

It needs to have that damage bonus on top of that 4th turret and needs that extra cpu to fit heatsink/energised membrane/rcu2 to make beam plated mwd fit
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#142 - 2015-10-17 07:09:57 UTC
Drone boats are supposed to have one slot less than non drone boats. You forgot to do this change to the stratios as well.

I suggest:

Remove one hi slot from the stratios and add 25mbit bandwith for drones.



The nestor could also need some help. That ship is slower than most capital ships and cant really make use of propulsion mods due to its low mass. I suggest double mass, half intertia and add about 50m/s to its speed

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183

Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#143 - 2015-10-17 07:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
+ 1 across the board for all the frigatz fozzie . Good changes ... love the fact the u made punisher into a dps support frigate.

Interesting changes to gila/worm. but i think -20 on the worm is a bit harsh considering its a frigate . Same nerf as a cruiser ??

Orthrus: i had many concerns to this . but instead of reducing the overall damage . I would say just remove the bonuses towards RLML . Reasons are: with bonuses only towards HML and HAMs, they will be able to hit larger targets harder and smaller targets bad. It should allow ppl to get enough counter play with interceptors and t3'ds .

On a last note . No changes to garmur doing 8km/s with links ????
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#144 - 2015-10-17 08:30:45 UTC
Next batch of ships needing these sort of small tweaks to make them useful:

Ishkur
Eris
Hecate

Ships that still need nerfing:

Garmur
Cerberus

As general balance tweak:

Remove all rapid missile launchers.
Dato Koppla
Kiwis In Space
Shadow Cartel
#145 - 2015-10-17 08:49:36 UTC
Everything looks good but.....

THE PUNISHER BUFFS ARE ABSOLUTE TRASH

Your current iteration of the Punisher makes me think someone said 'How can I make the current weaknesses of the Punisher worse?'

Let's not give it the third mid it so badly needs, retain it's crap tracking with lasers so you can't hit anything, remove it's only form of range control (neut in the utility high), give it an extra low it can't fill because of the horrendous CPU and give it an extra turret and high so the fittings become even worse.

What in the actual hell was trying to be achieved? Whoever came up with these changes are so far removed from the lowsec small gang/solo frigate meta. They are nothing short of absolutely clueless.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#146 - 2015-10-17 09:23:52 UTC
Just looking at the new Navy ECM ships and the Hookbill is outclassed by the vigil now even after this change... please give it more cpu and a tiny bit more pg so it can be tanked instead of being forced into to dual web fits. I mean the fleet vigil gets 190 CPU and has 4mids, the hookbill only has 165 with 5 mids What? Add to that the vigil is faster, more agile, massive web range bonus, and application bonus it's just hard to imagine why anyone would use a hookbill at all.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#147 - 2015-10-17 09:30:28 UTC
So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?
Alek Row
Silent Step
#148 - 2015-10-17 10:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Rifter and Slasher:
Rifter and Slasher are getting a moderate fittings buff to help artillery fits and to make it easier to use the utility highs.
  • Rifter: +5 CPU, +3 PWG
  • Slasher: +5 CPU, +2 PWG

  • Even with +3 pg, it is not possible to have a 280mm rifter with ABII, web, disr, dc, gyro saar without 2 pg rigs, could you please make it +5 pg? No other race needs pg rigs to have a fit like that, rifter still needs 2, no changes here.

    Good luck with a good arty fit in that slasher.

    Punisher buff doesn't make sense, +1 slot? really? Despite I hate drones, you could make it a pure drone or rocket boat, no need to mess up the number of slots.

    Overall, very very very lazy, you may have identified the problems but the solutions look like random numbers and random enhancements. You need to fix ac/arty pg requirements.
    BroodAlpha
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #149 - 2015-10-17 10:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BroodAlpha
    While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships.

    Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus?

    Even when Orthrus pilots mess up (which is almost impossible), with a cheeky Kitsune in the comp, you just jam them off.

    Currently the ONLY way to kill an Orthrus is through gross pilot error or by warping 30 dudes on top of them after probing. Keep the scram and point bonuses but bring Light Missiles on cruisers more in line with the way that the Omen Navy Issue works.

    I like the Omen Navy overall because it's incredibly fast, strong if used correctly. It's not EASY to tackle but it is POSSIBLE.

    Once you have it tackled, it still has options to try to neut you off, while applying damage with a flight of light drones or remove your scram with ECM drones.

    Currently the Orthrus just scrams you at 35km and you can never tackle it with smaller ships that are designed for tackling things.

    I've tackled a few ONIs in my time, but I've never successfully tackled an Orthrus without losing my ship.

    Pilot error should be punished harder in those ships.

    Orthrus with Keres, Hyena and Kitsune in the comp is pretty much unkillable.

    Jams also need deleting from the game. There's no fun in being able to target nothing for 20 seconds at a time...
    Lidia Caderu
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #150 - 2015-10-17 11:01:13 UTC
    Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
    So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?

    Right.
    Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship.
    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #151 - 2015-10-17 11:04:56 UTC
    BroodAlpha wrote:
    While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships.

    Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus?

    Even when Orthrus pilots mess up (which is almost impossible), with a cheeky Kitsune in the comp, you just jam them off.

    Currently the ONLY way to kill an Orthrus is through gross pilot error or by warping 30 dudes on top of them after probing. Keep the scram and point bonuses but bring Light Missiles on cruisers more in line with the way that the Omen Navy Issue works.

    I like the Omen Navy overall because it's incredibly fast, strong if used correctly. It's not EASY to tackle but it is POSSIBLE.

    Once you have it tackled, it still has options to try to neut you off, while applying damage with a flight of light drones or remove your scram with ECM drones.

    Currently the Orthrus just scrams you at 35km and you can never tackle it with smaller ships that are designed for tackling things.

    I've tackled a few ONIs in my time, but I've never successfully tackled an Orthrus without losing my ship.

    Pilot error should be punished harder in those ships.

    Orthrus with Keres, Hyena and Kitsune in the comp is pretty much unkillable.

    Jams also need deleting from the game. There's no fun in being able to target nothing for 20 seconds at a time...


    Nerf all light missile ships because you can't tackle an Orthurus in a frig?

    No
    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #152 - 2015-10-17 11:07:21 UTC
    Lidia Caderu wrote:
    Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
    So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?

    Right.
    Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship.


    really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable
    Cardano Firesnake
    Fire Bullet Inc
    #153 - 2015-10-17 11:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
    Ok if for this nerf; but The Gila need a bit more agility.

    Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

    Mad Abbat
    Talon Swarm
    #154 - 2015-10-17 11:52:16 UTC
    Fourteen Maken wrote:
    Lidia Caderu wrote:
    Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
    So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?

    Right.
    Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship.


    really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable


    You are cleless. Punisher is brick that is almost immobile by frigate standards. It cannot kite, cannot hit anything with aurora, because of tracking, and have no optimal bunus to apply on range where aurora can hit.

    I already have no CPU to fit its 4 lows, and you throwing in 5th, that will go to nano/anp2 that takes no cpu to fit.

    If punisher get cap bonuses, it will be decent GLASTER / autogun fleet platform, where it will be rulled out, because true amarr don't have place for basters in treir training quenue.
    Norn Thilnir
    Naragnir
    #155 - 2015-10-17 12:41:43 UTC
    From a newer player perspective trying to min-max my skillpoints (a joy soon I will no longer experience, since EVE will be "pay to SP"), I have the following comments:

    EVE ship balancing is a huge mess for three reasons. Only the first point really applies to this thread, the other two are ranting.

    (1) The races do not focus properly on 'their' weapon systems. This ties in to the NPE: without providing decent upgrade paths for new pilots it takes them much longer to be competitive. It also severely reduces the advantage of proper specialization. The biggest example of this at the moment is of how much minmatar dps is tied up in drones, but all races struggle with this.

    Case in point: the punisher changes. You want a more powerful punisher? Well, scrap a high slot, move it to a low and give a massive laser damage bonus. Keep a utility high. Done.

    (2) Link bonuses are too big. The problem is that EVE for a while now has been balanced with a quick fix left and right "around" over-bonused links.

    (3) There is a chronic lack of dev resources with regards to balancing. All power-multipliers need to be properly examined and CCP needs to make up their minds about what elements interesting/fun pvp should contain. To create a better and somewhat less risk-averse pvp dynamic is not going to be achieved without a major effort both in terms of PR (getting your view across) and realization.

    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #156 - 2015-10-17 12:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
    Mad Abbat wrote:
    Fourteen Maken wrote:
    Lidia Caderu wrote:
    Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
    So the punisher is getting it's old projectile turret bonus back, eh?

    Right.
    Let em just remove cap bonus to lasers and give something else instead. I'd make 3 Turrets/3 Launchers with 4 hi-slots owerall, would be an interesting ship.


    really it should be good with beams for solo, and it will be awesome in gangs. i think it looks solid now, the cap use bonus is a bit rubbish but it will keep kite fits cap stable


    You are cleless. Punisher is brick that is almost immobile by frigate standards. It cannot kite, cannot hit anything with aurora, because of tracking, and have no optimal bunus to apply on range where aurora can hit.

    I already have no CPU to fit its 4 lows, and you throwing in 5th, that will go to nano/anp2 that takes no cpu to fit.

    If punisher get cap bonuses, it will be decent GLASTER / autogun fleet platform, where it will be rulled out, because true amarr don't have place for basters in treir training quenue.


    But you can easily fit double nano's in the lows now so it can be fast and agile depending on how it's fit.

    okay how about something like this instead

    [[Punisher, Punisher fit]

    200mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates
    200mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates
    Heat Sink II
    Damage Control II
    Adaptive Nano Plating II

    5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
    Fleeting Warp Disruptor I

    Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
    Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
    Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
    Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
    Small Energy Locus Coordinator II


    DPS
    Scorch: 123dps cold 132dps with heat. 15.5 +3.13km range
    Imp Navy Multi: 154dps cold 176dps with heat 5.55 +3.13km range
    Conflag: 171dps cold 196dps with heat 5.55 +3.13km range



    Tank
    7.91k EHP 72.5/64.3/58.8/56 resists



    Mobility
    2691 m/s cold 3814 with heat
    5.07seconds align time



    Tactics
    I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig.
    Lin Fatale
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #157 - 2015-10-17 12:49:57 UTC
    yaya orthrus/gila nerf,
    just nerf evrything which is naturaly an okish allrounder for roaming and does not need a special fit to survive
    the gazillions of frigs and t3/destroyers
    to introduce more frigs into frig online, definiatly also the game needs more logis

    really unclear for me, how you can invest the last years on rebalance the frigs over and over again
    while evrything above cruiser is just dead
    Mad Abbat
    Talon Swarm
    #158 - 2015-10-17 13:14:00 UTC
    Fourteen Maken wrote:
    [quote=Mad Abbat][quote=Fourteen Maken][quote=Lidia Caderu][quote=Sitting Bull Lakota]So the
    Tactics
    I know it's extremely slow for a "kite" fit but it's got enough dps and tank that it could live with most brawlers in scram range anyway. The idea would be to kite ab fit brawlers as much as possible but it's got enough tank and dps that even if you get caught in o/h web range you should still beat nearly any t1 frig.


    you will get caught instatly, as 2.6k on mwd is less than t2 ab fit succubus, lol.

    it will apply more or less 0 dps in close range as SFPL can't track in close range, with beam it even worse.

    current iteration of changes is just.... bad.
    May Arethusa
    Junction Systems
    #159 - 2015-10-17 13:36:53 UTC
    Quote:
    While we're chatting about ship balance, Light Missiles as a platform overall apply damage far too well to small ships.

    Have you ever tried to tackle an Orthrus or a Cerberus?


    I hear this all the time, and it simply isn't true. Yet people cry about it loud enough and we end up where we are now. Missile damage is easily mitigated through speed and sig, and there is nothing the missile user can do about it. Once you reach certain speeds, you outrun missiles entirely.

    Yesterday, I engaged two RLML Cerbs running FW missions in a Malediction. Of their potential 1238 Volley damage, each managed to apply only 180. Tackling one is incredibly easy, it wasn't until the second arrived to save his friend from a slow and humiliating death that things got dicey. Even then, I stuck around long enough for the first to reload which bought me an extra 35 seconds on field. With a Missile Disruptor, I doubt they'd have hit me at all.

    This patch brings about double nerfs to some missile boats (and gives other hulls a huge boost via automatic qualification for Missile Disruptor bonuses), and while some may have needed refining (which is questionable to begin with) this isn't the way to do it.

    Since when did one man and his blog dictate game balance? Developers are often accused of listening too much to the vocal minority, this is taking it to the nth degree.
    Mixu Paatelainen
    Eve Refinery
    #160 - 2015-10-17 13:47:08 UTC
    Will a 4 small Smartbomb punisher be able to kill a capsule?