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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

First post First post
Shiva Furnace
#201 - 2015-10-18 11:06:18 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

For wormhole PVE, a Gila losing critical defence, is quite an extreme solution to balancing the Ship for PVP. When you have no capacitor left, and the sleepers self rep almost as fast as you can kill them with one drone damage amplifier fitted, then tanking them long enough to take damage off the field is somewhat of a requirement. With no DDA one chips away almost for ever, even with perfect skills. While the sleepers try to eat your drones too. Keeping that DDA fitted, means one less shield power relay or DC, one gets chewed up before one can remove enough damage from the field. As only a passive tank survives the neut pressure then there is a Bit of an issue there.

This of course is being run in possibly the most PVP hostile area in EVE. Having a tiny bit of shield left is quite useful in terms of survival. But I don't really need to explain that do I?

Taking A low slot off is like beheading the dog. It solves a problem, but creates a bigger one. Surely considering alternative solutions would be the intelligent path to follow? There are alternatives available that will reduce the damage applied In PVP whilst having a lesser effect for PVE. They are discussed in this thread,

Of Course people have no right to live in wormholes, they have no right to an income to earn enough to replace lost ships, they can always live somewhere else, Fly another ship, do something else, no one is entitled to anything.Roll

Of course People undertake PVE all through EVE, in all areas of space, they are all going to have similar issues. So it is worth discussing in the feedback thread, and bringing attention to where the proposal will have unintended consequences.

Personally, I thought the post I answered, had a valid point, and I was supporting it, then someone let their attack dog off the lead.
The dog comment was aimed squarely at "her" and since clarified so as not to feed the troll.

PS the majority of my use of a Gila is for PVP, but I understand the poster lamenting the loss of it for PVE, maybe people should try to empathise with others rather than branding them as entitled, for daring to have a different need for them.

Again, why do you insist that this particular cruiser should be able to passive tank C3 sites- what makes it so special, why not use other ships, why not active tank it? Being able to passive tank a cruiser for C3 PVE content with enough dps is obviously broken, you need to come up with a viable explanation why it should remain overpowered and not go on tangents about beheaded pets.
Iron Krosz
#202 - 2015-10-18 12:13:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Shilalasar wrote:

It looks like FW-farmers favorite ship now, more room for WCSs.

Good lord I only just realised ... they will be everywhere, Fozzie what have you done mate ?

I know NI Maulus + scrams but really, do we have to have a ship specialized in hunting stabbed farmers? Is this the final acknowledgement from CCP that stabbed plex farming is working as intended ? Certainly looks like it.

EDIT, To be fair, the 3 scram breacher I used to catch 4 stab farmers will still catch 5 stab farmers Lol
Maxwell Hisscock
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-10-18 13:03:00 UTC
Why not get right to it. take the Caldari race out of the game and stop the death of 1000 paper cuts. Then take all the ships out of the game and replace them with a tricycle and a plastic spork to fight with. There is your perfect game balance. Why is it every few years CCP has to try and drive off 1/3 of its customer base?
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#204 - 2015-10-18 13:15:12 UTC
Dude... the Gila is going to be fine. No one needs to cut their dogs head off. The ship still does ridiculous amounts of danage and maintain a solid tank. If the passive tank means so much to you then get rid of a dda. Most other cruisers woulfnt even think about doing pve sites besides for maybe the navy ishtar, t3's anf some t2's ehich really speak to how strong the gila really is. Maybe you should consider rolling a navy bc if this bugs you so much.
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#205 - 2015-10-18 13:19:13 UTC
CCP if you want to nerf the Orthrus dont hurt the damage output, nerf the Disruptor/Scrambler range bonus.

With a nerf like that the ship will be way more vulnerable then it is. The true force of the orthrus is the hability to tackle at very long range, specially when linked with OOG. Nerf the point range and they will be obliged to go at closer distances where most of the ships can deal with them.
Perrdy Lady
#206 - 2015-10-18 13:25:36 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Perrdy Lady wrote:
Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore.

Perhaps you should stop relying on ships that are hugely OP and try developing some actual piloting skill instead ?

Edit : I just realised ur a butthurt PVEr, now all this whine makes sense

And I'll bet my left arm that you are just a butthurt pvp'er who got whooped by a gila because you suck.
Iron Krosz
#207 - 2015-10-18 13:35:21 UTC
Perrdy Lady wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Perrdy Lady wrote:
Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore.

Perhaps you should stop relying on ships that are hugely OP and try developing some actual piloting skill instead ?

Edit : I just realised ur a butthurt PVEr, now all this whine makes sense

And I'll bet my left arm that you are just a butthurt pvp'er who got whooped by a gila because you suck.

Honestly can't remember last time I got killed by a Gila, been killed by plenty of other ships because I suck tho Lol
Devara Biotech
#208 - 2015-10-18 13:41:58 UTC
How about the punisher gains 4 unbonused missile hardpoints like the dragoon, prophecy and geddon has? Should allow some flexibility and fun :)


Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#209 - 2015-10-18 14:10:22 UTC
How about we finally get that Black Ops rebalance? Where's that?

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
#210 - 2015-10-18 14:11:47 UTC
Glathull wrote:
I'm loving the punisher these days. This is going to make it just that much better. You can make 2 mids work, if you're creative. Ignore the complainers, Fozzie. Punisher changes are spot on.

The tormentor is the better frigate. More dps, extra mid which can be used for web or injector.

The punisher's extra ehp/tank is meaningless in a gang because of logi, since nobody with brains is going to shoot at anything but logi/ewar first. Tank only matters when you're being shot at, dps/projection matters during the whole fight.

For solo 2 mids means prop mod and point, that's zero flexibility. A web not only helps with range dictation, but is like having 120% extra tracking inside 13km.

It also can't shield tank, which you can do with frigates with 3+ mids. Can't do injected dual rep either. Can't fit ewar.

All that and it's losing it's utility high which is the only bonus it had over the tormentor. All it can do better is bait, and since it has no web a lot of targets could disengage at will.
Blood Animus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2015-10-18 14:37:31 UTC
Probably my first post because I feel very strongly concerning the Gila. Probably wall of text with wandering subject.

First off the loss of a lows combined with less cpu is a horrible nerf, current fits are already CPU limited if you try to fit launchers and a full t2 tank and damage mods. A common fit for fleet PvP will by a DCU and 3 DDA's and then we buffer tank it and fix holes in the mids and choose whether we want an AB or utility mod, neuts/RLML and DLA in highs. In a fleet setting this allows the Gila to punch well above it's weight and is also heavily anti-t3 since our tank isn't cap or speed based and our dps cannot be stopped.

Solo you get a lot of variation, you can drop a DDA and a LSE + invuln for a cpu augment in low and micro/point and some HM/HAMs for blistering dps to cruisers and still being able to stomp frogs who can't outrun mediums. It's a very dominant ship in it's class.

Alright now for PVE it's pretty simple. It gets a hull resist bonus per racial cruiser level with a dps bonus on missiles to prop up it's dps. You can buffer fit it with specific hardeners and it can solo DEDs and combat anoms pretty handily with 500-600 dps and an almost magical resist profile. The other way is to passive tank it and you find it becomes a bastion of death to most PVE in the game at cruiser-BS level. 4 shield relays will have it pushing 800 dps passive tank with resists factored in on a broad resist tank, if you fit it for a specific race it will be even higher.

Ok now some checks and balances. Price is one, it is the 2nd most expensive faction cruiser. Drone based, kill/cripple/outrun it's dps and it's no better than a brick. In the same note I do believe the drone HP is rather high and could use some balancing since they get near cruiser . Fitting is a pain, you cannot fully t2 fit this ship without sacrificing dps since it it cpu limited, a passive tank will see you using meta 4 shield relays in the lows with meta 4 launchers in the highs since to fit 4 DDA's you will run out of cpu. For site running Class 3 wormholes it's balanced for the fact that while it tanks every site, it requires you to actually spend money to make money amd can take a while to make back due to the constant threat of being dropped and because sleepers will focus your drones and cut your dps in half or completely during this due to webs/killing drones. Also for the sites the constant dps isn't a problem, battleship alpha is what drives your passive down as you can lose close to 10-20% shield in a volley while fully passive fit, if you like to be edgy and tank at 30-40% this could see ypu losing your ship if you overestimate your hull (I am guilty of this on a few ships). One of the benefits to running sites in a gila compared to say a drake or a gila is that you are a target that is hard to actually kill, a drake is big and slow with laughable application compared to what will be dropped on you, any tengu you find in a wormhole running C3's will be active tanked and you just have to fit an AB and a neut and you mitigate a majority of it's dps while it caps itself out (short of being blingy with a pod fit for active tank). Both the drake and a tengu are harder to get into than a Gila, drake requires heavy missile skills and if you want to actually clear sites you need to train the supports, the tengu is a t3 and as always will be a minimum of 400m to purchase and require months of trainning. Gila on the other hand, train t2 shields (important train for anyone), medium drones a bit so your dps is worth using, and the hull to 4 for resists and it's ready to roll out and run sites. It's a very newbro friendly train for people just starting their WH career or daytrippers trying their hand at something new. I've owned at minimum 6 of these specific hulls and given them away to newer members of my corp so they can join us as dps for site running as they are very forgiving in terms of being focused by waves and I lile to see them actively participating in fleets. Loss of a low slot makes them unusable for all c3 sites, period, there is no replacement unless you want to train into a drake which is worse in every way

Alright now a better solution to balance the PVP dominance of the Gila compared to other faction cruisers (ignoring t1 cruisers beacuse this hull costs exponentially more than a t2 fit t1cruiser).

1. Separate the drone HP and damage bonuses, then lower it's dps bonus to drones to 450%/400% and give the drones a slight nerf to hp at 400% so they can be killed a little easier.

2. Remove a launcher and then the Gila doesn't have as much issue with the -20 CPU hit but can still be able to fit for HM/HAM and do reasonable dps for the cost of it's hull but still separating us from a slot and giving us 4 highs (3 missile 1 utility), while not killing the passive Gila.

Closing statments

Just because a hull is better at something at its hull level than anything else doesn't make it broken, it makes it unique (please don't mention the orthrus, quit engaging linked and snaked hulls or bring a sebo'd celestis/maulus). Removing a ship's viability in an entire section of PVE because you didn't realize not everyone flys a t3 or rattlesnake for a 30m site is rediculous, you're also lowering newer pilots ability to build their wallets when they are just trying to do something new and exciting. I like finding a Gila in my chain, you can't simply solo it mid site and encourages cooperation to kill.

There's other stuff but it's already a wall of text
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2015-10-18 15:18:40 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
[quote=Yli Canis]~snipsnip~(I hate omnislash)

One could do that, or one could reduce the damage another way without making it ineffective for the PVE he is describing.

He is pointing out that there may be a way of reducing the damage another way than removing a low slot. Possibly by either removing a missile hardpoint/ High slot or If the team feels a low must go, compensate it by increasing the passive regen to replace a shield power relay, Which does not help PVP but helps keep PVE utility.

There is PVE in other places than wormholes, HS , LS, Null basically absolutely everywhere, So are you saying ALL PVE players should Take one for the team because PVP players used it to excess?

Hardly balanced that, is it?

I use the Gila for PVP too, Great ship, Still good for PVP, we will cope. Absolutely buggered for it's primary PVE role now as a passive regen ship though.

CCP Fozzie has asked us to point out issues,and things are not finalised.

Do people think he is superman, plus the wisdom and infallibility of the Pope?

Of course he needs feedback from the people who use the ships, in the areas they use them. He is asking for our input.

And like any reasonable person he will look and see where the unforeseen problems created by the proposal, can be mitigated, whilst still achieving the primary goal.

We shouldn't get to worried at this point from a PVE point of view, regarding PVP, the effective damage reduction is in the right ballpark and honestly expected by most, CCP will just hopefully pick a different way of achieving the same goal, He has said he has an open mind.

Actually to be blunt CCP had two options with the gila. Nerf its tank or nerf its damage. In any practical sense tank is the problem. What you have is a pirate cruiser hull that tanks like a HAC without any drawback whatsoever. WHers abused the battleship grade tank for a while and want to keep it because it makes c3s considerably easier to do logistically. Trouble is that's just bad design.

Do you realize you are making the point for why the gila was in need of a tanking nerf by saying you have no cruiser options to solo a c3 anymore? When only one special snowflake of a hull can do it solo it should have flagged your brain somewhere that it might be an issue.

And no.. this nerf will not hurt it in other PVE areas because it was already PVEing considerably above its weight class.
Additionally anyone who is currently complaining about a few CPU points(which account for the lowslots fitting reqs) or the loss of a lowslot.. Read your own posts. Your arguments center around the ship and the ship itself.. absolutely nothing about balance between other ships. "Unique snowflakes" have a history of ruining games. No sane developer will keep one full well knowing the player base will continue to abuse the heck out of it and destroy thousands of man hours of balance work in the process.

This is eve.. Your toy got nerfed. You enjoyed it while it was retardedly overpowered. Now it will be balanced.
Get. Over. It.

Blood Animus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2015-10-18 15:32:41 UTC
I recommend you go on SiSi and try to run sites with our Gila first then try to run it in a drake, then a tengu, then a rattlesnake. Then look at the site value and time to completion for each. You'll see why it's the hull we choose.
#214 - 2015-10-18 17:11:29 UTC
Yli Canis wrote:
The Gila nerf is absolutely brutal to Jspace denizens soling C3s.

Max passive regen I can eft is 663, with all Vs, faction extenders and A-type amplifiers. That's on a ship that will run you around 600 mil at jita and has 0 insurance (huge risk of losing all your investment). With t2 extenders (~120 mil cheaper) the max tank with all Vs is around 630.

The lowest-dps C3 site has a 669 dps wave.

Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2015-10-18 17:30:47 UTC
I really don't get why people use Gilas for wspace PvE soloing. T3s are just so much better in like every way for doing this, and it's not like they're expensive these days.
Blood Animus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2015-10-18 17:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Blood Animus
ArmyOfMe wrote:

Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit.

3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs?
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2015-10-18 17:40:32 UTC
Blood Animus wrote:
3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs?

Hint: Exp/Kin resists are irrelevant when soloing C3s in a cruiser.
Umino Iruka
#218 - 2015-10-18 18:50:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Barghest is underperforming a tad in our eyes, so this change provides a slight DPS buff at high skill levels (9 effective launchers vs the previous 8.75) while providing a second utility high.
  • -1 Launcher (second utility high)
  • Change damage bonus to 10% per level

  • As we keep working and incorporate feedback, it's very possible that some of these changes may be adjusted or removed, or that more could be added. This is also not the complete list of balance changes coming this Winter, keep an eye on this forum section for the latest updates.

    We really want to hear your feedback on these proposals. Let us know what you think!

    How about you give us an extra mid slot instead of that 2nd utility high? A Rattlesnake for example, has a tanking bonus as well as 7 mid slots, and the Barghest is kinda expected to be able to fit both long and short point which leaves only 4 slots for prop mod(s) and tank....god forbid if anyone got an idea to fit a missile tracking comp or two....
    John WarpingSlow
    #219 - 2015-10-18 19:00:41 UTC
    Perrdy Lady wrote:
    Finally find a ship thats fun and great, in comes ccp with the nerf hammer. Every. Single. Time. I'm starting to ask myself, why even bother anymore.

    After a while you become jaded by this. "New Ships!" announcements inspire the memory of Lucy pulling that football away from Charlie Brown.
    Dato Koppla
    We Aim To MisBehave
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #220 - 2015-10-18 20:10:49 UTC
    Blood Animus wrote:
    ArmyOfMe wrote:

    Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit.

    3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs?

    Maybe 2-3 month olds shouldn't be able to farm C3s so effectively because a certain ship is unbalanced? You want to retain your PvE farming ability at the cost of balancing the game?