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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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sytaqe violacea
Choir of morning
#121 - 2015-10-17 01:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: sytaqe violacea
At first, I am excited too. Especially punisher DPS buff is a thing.

I want to argue some about Breacher.
This ship is 1 of 2 active tank bonused T1 frigate. However, actually people fly it with MASB. MASB is buffer tank in fact.
I suggest buff to Breacher's capacitor . It makes true active tank fit; Flux coil + web + SB fit more viable.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#122 - 2015-10-17 01:19:43 UTC
I may be beating a dead horse, but... Muninn? Can we have something done with it?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#123 - 2015-10-17 01:43:10 UTC
Um, Fozzie, ever considered dropping Artillery PG a tad versus just adding PG to hulls that don't need it?

I mean...you compare the PG needs of HML, RLML's and HAMs and they are mostly on par. But AC's and Arty are like two completely different weapon systems.

Orthrus DPS nerf of 12.5% is OK. it just means that your kitefag cancer takes a little longer to kill you at 40km, which allows you to table flip a bit less and sulk less often. GG.

The problem is the oversupply of PG and fitting capacity here. That remains unresolved.

The Navy osprey will still remain uncompetitive. The extra drones are handy, but it's still a completely subpar missile boat with nothing going for it. Just a little bit less of nothing, now.

Gila and Worm nerfs are long overdue. They'll still be popular, but now just a bit slower at killdozering the bejeezus out of everything. kinda the same orthrus argument, viz, the tanks are just a wee bit OP. The CPU nerf on the Worm might be interesting, as it has some really tight fitting already. Will reserve judgment on that.

Barghest buff is...welcome, i guess. It still needs a little something. Also a smaller model. it's bigger than most capitals.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2015-10-17 02:04:10 UTC
The route you went with the punisher... eh take it or leave it. I dont think it will work the way you want it to.

The Gila nerf is expected. The loss of the lowslot actually works to bring this ship in line with its cruiser brethren. It never really made sense that you had a battleship grade tank on a pirate cruiser hull.

All other changes good. I like the "new" kinetic lock bonus vs a straight kin bonus. You should really consider rolling this into all Kinlocked ships asap.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#125 - 2015-10-17 02:08:24 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Another failed opportunity to put a drone cruiser in the right place.

Worm: 300% bonus to Light Combat Drone damage and hitpoints

Rattle: 275% bonus to Sentry Drone and Heavy Drone damage and hitpoints

Gila: 500% bonus to Medium Combat Drone damage and hitpoints


The only thing you have to do to the Gila is change the broken as **** 500% bonus to 300%. That's it! So easy!


Medium drones are very mediocre compared to lights, sentries and heavies, it actually does need to have a bigger bonus if it's going to be forced to use these.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#126 - 2015-10-17 02:28:40 UTC
Punisher should not be turned into a drone boat. It's role is cleary defined, it just hasn't been executed quite as well as it could be, although the Punisher as it is right now is not as bad as people think.

The Crucifier is the Amarr drone boat frigate, and it's a pretty good frigate except for the fact that it should be able to field a full flight of drones but is only currently capable of fielding 3. It's a great ewar support ship, but if it got a full drone bay it would actually be usable in solo and small gang frigate pvp, but right now it just doesn't have a reliable way to kill things. It wouldn't be OP because it still has no tank and still wouldn't have much damage, but it would actually be a really good ship that was good in fleets and actually did pose a minor threat because of it's drones. 3 drones isnt enough to do much tho.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#127 - 2015-10-17 03:29:13 UTC
why do you touch the tristaninstead of serioulsy nerfing the orthrus and the worm , you should reduce it's speed.

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#128 - 2015-10-17 03:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mad Abbat
I've used punisher pretty heavily back in the day, and I think that 2 mid setup requires it to be a missle boat, but if you want to make it lazor boat, please leave it with 5% or even 7,5% damage bonus, as it will have a role as cheap t1 "in your face" damage dealer in small gangs.

I'm not very happy to see punusher as newbie pve boat with no role in FW, as it has no damage or utility to compete with tormentor in a dps support role.


tl:dr thats how i see gang lazor Punisher:

4 turrets, 7,5% damage bonus, 4% brick tank bonus.

Hights: 4 SFPL, conflag ammo
Meds: 5mn restrained mwd, j5b scram,
Lows: heatsink x 2, dc2, EANM2, 400m compact plates,
Rigs: Collision accel 2, Trimark , Trimark
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#129 - 2015-10-17 03:37:20 UTC
Quote:
Worm and Gila:
Two of the most dominant ships in their classes, we're going to tone them down a bit...

Worm: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU
Gila: -1 Lowslot, -20 CPU


wow, if that's what you guys call " tone them down a bit" ...
really, what about "small steps" approach? yea they where strong ships, but not really "prenerf ishtar lvl" and even the ishtar didn't got this lvl of nerfbat;
-20CPU AND -1 low slot after the recent DDA nerf, aren't you guys going a bit overboard here?
Kovares Arnolds
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-10-17 03:44:49 UTC
I saw no mention about Federation Navy Comet. How do you feel about that ship? I personally see it as too strong and too flexible. Face melting damage with blasters, can kite with rails, is quite fast (2nd highest base speed of faction frigs) and has 3 drones on top of that. You can find a high number of FN Comets in FW space as a result. I'd say get rid of it's drones, nerf speed or something else.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#131 - 2015-10-17 04:08:55 UTC
Nice to see you waited to find out what impact Missile Disruptors would have before tinkering with several missile boats. I expect that once you've muddied the waters even more you'll finally get around to re-balancing missiles properly.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#132 - 2015-10-17 04:22:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level



    • hell yeah Big smile so many things I could do with this!

    will be a good armor doctrine with logi - it almost works even now.

    fit an uber tank and bait

    best t1 frig for pve

    for solo the range control is a problem for brawling... but could we fit mwd + disruptor and use it for kiting now? I think with the cap efficient mwd and the cap use bonus it might just work. also extra low slot for speed, and always the option to switch to conflag if you get tackled. This is good round of changes but this new punisher will be amazing, just went from being worst in class to one of the best!
    Demerius Xenocratus
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #133 - 2015-10-17 04:24:49 UTC
    Well the Punisher may become ridiculous. But it's been bad for so long, well deserved.

    Orthrus damage was fine tbh...that ship really only becomes stupid with links. Same with the garmur and the gila.
    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #134 - 2015-10-17 04:40:56 UTC
    May Arethusa wrote:
    Nice to see you waited to find out what impact Missile Disruptors would have before tinkering with several missile boats. I expect that once you've muddied the waters even more you'll finally get around to re-balancing missiles properly.


    Be happy, Calmil couldn't wait for the next full missile balance pass, did you never wonder why your lp was trading for less than galmil even though you're a tier behind them and have been for a long time? Yeah missiles need looking at, but the problems with the Osprey and the hookbill were deeper than just the missiles themselves, if missiles got a buff across the board people would still chose the far cheaper t1 caracal over the Nosprey or the Navy Caracal, and people would still chose kestrel or condor over the hookbill because the price difference wasn't worth it.
    Samaz Ralan
    Doomheim
    #135 - 2015-10-17 05:06:33 UTC
    rocket punisher because not every amarrian wants to have matari grandmothers strapped to their hull throwing rocks at the enemy (ac punisher :P)

    yeah, rockets.
    Warde Guildencrantz
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #136 - 2015-10-17 05:32:20 UTC
    Ah yes, a buff to the navy osprey, one of my fave inexpensive combat cruisers.

    TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
    Shalashaska Adam
    Snakes and Lasers
    #137 - 2015-10-17 05:41:08 UTC
    Punisher changes look excellent.

    I think CCP is correct in not giving it a third mid slot.

    There's no point in so many ships being in the game if they are all made to be the same.

    The 5th low makes it unique amongst T1 frigs, it doesn't have to be another solo frigate.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #138 - 2015-10-17 06:22:39 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    Garrett Osinov wrote:
    Can I have my skill points back, which I invested in Gila / Orthurus ?

    Gila was an exellent PvE ship !

    Why the hell are u ruining ppls game ??? I makes sense to me, if you are changing the ships make a refund for those ships, for those skills !!!


    The Gila still is an excellent PVP ship. It just does 35 less DPS if you fit three Drone Damage Amplifier II's instead of four.

    This is hardly ruining the game for anyone.



    Quite right, the Gila will still be an excellent PVP ship with either a little less damage, or a little less tank.

    However PVP is not the only use for this ship, It is widely used with a passive tank in cap hostile environments.
    Removing a low effectively makes this ship sub-effective in this role. Particuarly in hostile PVE environments with a strong chance of involuntary PVP.

    If however a missile launcher was removed, it would affect PVP and PVE equally without destroying the PVE role.

    Would that not be better?


    +1, wormhole Gilas are fun.
    Aiyshimin
    Shiva Furnace
    #139 - 2015-10-17 06:27:11 UTC
    epicurus ataraxia wrote:
    Minus one low slot on the Gila is pretty savage when the ship is passive tanked for PVE. I can certainly see the point For PVP, there it is more balanced as a change.

    Could you please have a look to see if there is an alternative that doesn't make it a poor choice for PVE, particuarly solo C3 running, as that is not going to be practical any more, either insufficient tank, or unable to break the sleepers in a reasonable time, remember we are never more than moments away from 6 cloaky proteus. We already need to refit with a depot, to do them well, with a low slot less, there is nothing to work with.

    Would losing a missile launcher, and giving the new caldari missile damage types, be a better alternative?


    Why should the Gila be the only non-T3 cruiser that can solo C3 sites? If it can passive tank them now, it is a clear sign of being absurdly overpowered and probably needs another nerf. I'd decrease it's top speed and remove missile bonuses.
    Kaldfir Gongukaslan
    V.E.N. Asset Management
    #140 - 2015-10-17 06:29:14 UTC
    The proposed changes to the punisher are going to make an extremely boring ship. Nobody likes gun cap bonuses, and there isn't really any more room for innovation with that extra low. I also don't like the idea of a drone bay, since there's already enough drone-focused frigates. What we don't have is a frig with neut bonuses, and I feel like that might be the way to go here. For that to work there need to be 2 utility highs, and the grid to use them, but I think the ship's drawbacks (no drones, no third mid) warrant having some other powerful advantage.