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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Vyle Feelings
Cheesemonger Managerial Consortium
#21 - 2015-08-12 20:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyle Feelings
Equto wrote:
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....


Im not quite sure I agree with all your points


  1. The small ranges reduce how far you can move but also reduce the amount of fights you can reasonably have
  2. agree
  3. no opinion
  4. sounds good
  5. It already affects combat effectiveness. The sheer fact that I can't jump reduces the amount of fights I can get into, if the enemy knows I just jumped they know we can't attack them.
  6. Moves are currently a literal pain, some cross region moves can take weeks for smaller corps across time zones because we have no way to fight the larger groups that can drop us if we go region gates and lack of range reduces our ability to just jump between regions. Moves between alliances can remove my entire ability to play for 3 weeks or more, that's neither fun nor good for my willingness to play this game.
  7. I would love to have something to reduce fatigue, maybe not mods
  8. I agree with this, but its nearly impossible to fight near across many regions.



re: 5 -- I think that is the point. It ******SHOULD****** reduce the number of fights you can have otherwise it is ineffective. If you can fight someone in one region and then easily show up elsewhere to fight, the system is once again broken. The point of fatigue is to make people have to choose their fights. You shouldn't be able to participate in every fight, you should *HAVE* to pick and choose.

Knowing that nearby enemies won't drop on my small group of caps because it hampers their defensive abilitiy is the only reason I can utilize capital ships at all. If you want to allow people to take every cap fight that comes along you might as well tell small gang/small alliance players that capital ships aren't available to them.

As someone who has spent tens of hours moving capital ships in the past few weeks I don't even mind how tedious it was because I know that it is the only thing that actually allows me to use those ships in the first place. I can understand that you'd be frustrated that you're now in a position where you feel like you're missing out on things, but either you are or someone else is... at least in this post phoebe world we're all equally restricted instead of just the small groups.

Edit:

If the reactions here are regarding ability to project even within a single region, I think there are two issues here.

  • I think that people are still a bit too far spread out and thinking in terms of regions when they should be consolidating down further. I think this is something that will likely occur over time as people continue to get fozziesov trolled constantly. If you don't want to be trolled, pack yourselves down into a defensible space that nobody can troll.
  • Perhaps reduce fatigue time for bridges/jumps within 5LY of a capital system. This allows defenders to quickly move around their home area to defend while preventing massive power projection outside of their constellation/surrounding area. I'm okay with the idea that the periphery of someone's region is easier to take and more difficult to defend than the core. This makes the capital even more of a strategic choice and may further force people to give up space that they don't really need.
DavidJayder
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#22 - 2015-08-12 20:06:03 UTC
Jump fatigue is not a good solution as it seems to just discourage gameplay. A static jump timer or in fiction a jump capacitor is sufficient to slow down movements in conjuction with the jump ranges. You could even do stuff like have the jump cooldown scale with jump range; just not to the crazy extent of fatigue.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-08-12 20:14:16 UTC
I am in favor of any fatigue mechanic that lets you utilize your home region almost as much as you want. IE, bridges within a few LY of your capital system do not generate fatigue. Even if that was a very low limit like 5LY. This would make those long regional gates a lot more important.

Linking this to your capital system seems the most elegant way to do it. The long timer on moving your capital is already a big blocker to trying to exploit it for movement. I would go so far as to say that alone prevents it from being used in a way that allows any major power projection. Sure, you could relocate your capital to a mid point a week ahead of time but this means you also nerf your home region and lock yourself in to two weeks of a misplaced capital if you do not provide a bonus during a capital move.

When timer is active to move capital there is no bonus. That would make it a very difficult choice that requires a great deal of thought before you do it. Also telegraphs to all of EVE you are about to move for hot surprise sex action.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

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Opner Dresden
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#24 - 2015-08-12 20:14:30 UTC
Tag up fatigue clearance:

You set a home system
Jumping into that system clears jump fatigue.

Home system can be changed:
once a week/month/year (design choice)
At any time to a low sec system assigned to your bloodline
At any time to your alliances Capital system (bonus to owning sov)

This lets forces fight locally in an instant when ever content comes and reset for something offensive later in the same couple hour session when more people are around.

This also helps logistics as the build up can be managed with careful planning and encourages use of smaller trade hubs in empire that may be closer instead of using HS courier services.
Viger
Tortuga Trading Company
#25 - 2015-08-12 20:15:04 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....


I agree with Jaylon and would add:

Altering jump ranges:

Yes with high, fast accrued fatigue, maybe make it a limited use option, where the jf penalty is so high its prevents abuse.

Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based:

JF should stay per character or it will just be gamed and we will end up with the previous force projections that caused the changes in the 1st place, as he said, everyone will just own may ships. As it stands right now you need to level up or purchase another toon (isk sinks) to gain an advantage with numbers and force projection again.

Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue):

Capital system should have a JF reduction bonus for that Alliance (+ possible blues?)

Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)

Make it an active skill, like fleet boosters, see my point about penalties above, should be a limited use option to control abuse

Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs) Implants or Drugs would be nice

What does local-content mean to you?

I can fight, mine, buy and sell without having to spend 2 hours and 334 jumps gating around to get to a market hub

With regard to the deep nullsec, I understand the dev stated desire to do away with market hubs, unfortunately I don't see that as a viable option without giving players an alternative. We are very good at maxing profit and anything less won't do

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Dusenman
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#26 - 2015-08-12 20:17:20 UTC
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)][/quote]
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection

    • Differently a good start.

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based

    • While this could be abused it would take extra investment on the player


  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)


    • The idea of jumping out and into a capital to reduce jump fatigue has its advantage, but I can see the advantage to adding "Jump Fatigue" as part of a controllable strategic index for sov systems as much more manageable with a few less problems. Think about small alliances that want to slow down or prevent nuet/red capital movement though there space.


  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement

    • While I like this idea how would this effect carriers? Unable to launch drones maybe? Or maybe a penalty for the resistance profile? How about "unable to activate remote assistance modules for x amount of time?" While I like the idea I it really needs to be well planned to really work.

  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)

    • I like every part of this idea but the 24 hour process. How about 18 with skills to bring it down to 12. Still makes it hard to jump right in to battle, but allows you to move around in a reasonable time frame.

  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)

    • Great idea! Love the idea of drugs and skills, however making another module that will need to be on every capital is an annoying idea.

  • What does local-content mean to you?

    • Local content is people to shot at within a 10 jump range. If you control space that is close to high sec this really isn't a problem. However controlling a place like branch cut off from high sec and surrounded by blues makes local content limited to wormhole gangs and dedicated roamers. To start off sure resetting all those around us would help, however due to fact that we cannot build / harvest all of the materials we need makes us heavily relent on Jita and other market hubs and this in turn a really stupid idea. So over all I have no real ideas of how to fix this issue.

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    M1k3y Koontz
    Speaker for the Dead
    Stay Feral
    #27 - 2015-08-12 20:17:52 UTC
    DavidJayder wrote:
    Jump fatigue is not a good solution as it seems to just discourage gameplay. A static jump timer or in fiction a jump capacitor is sufficient to slow down movements in conjuction with the jump ranges. You could even do stuff like have the jump cooldown scale with jump range; just not to the crazy extent of fatigue.


    Fatigue was a great boon to the use of capitals. Its now possible to drop dreads on a tower and not have PL cyno into Curse from... Wherever the hell PL is. Thats huge, it means smaller fights can happen without a supercap powerhouse dropping in to spoil the fun.

    TLDR it most certainly does NOT discourage gameplay. Unless you have a Titan alt in which case you are part of the problem.

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    EvilweaselSA
    GoonCorp
    Goonswarm Federation
    #28 - 2015-08-12 20:22:09 UTC
    I'm not really sure what the point of tweaking around the edges of a design based on the principle that you can have fun in eve or you can have sov is. Discussing that principle seems a little more important.
    Fredric Wolf
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #29 - 2015-08-12 20:23:02 UTC
    Moving within your own systems should be at a reduced amount of fatigue or some other limiting movement factor.

    I like the idea of a jump capacitor tbh with JF getting a faster recharge.

    I think also moving inside of a region vs cross region should have a different mechanic or possible a transfer time even if its 10 seconds. This should be applied to any regional gate and the distance between regions should be increased.

    Black-Ops need to have there fatigue reduced substantially as well as covert ops ships.

    I am not sure about range increase but with the current range limits it makes a few systems choke points for catching capitals without much effort involved on the attackers maybe a slight increase to remove these bottlenecks.
    Kopaka Newton
    Kybernauts
    Kybernauts Clade
    #30 - 2015-08-12 20:24:07 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)


    • That would be great for logistics, like Jump Freighters, as they should'nt be nerfed by power projection nerfing. Set a course to move from system A to system B would take time (minutes? hours?). You would land at a safespot (like when your cyno dies when in jump) or something.

    Also great for people moving, let's say from alliance A in low to alliance B in null, without having to sell all their ships. For example someone owning a Rorqual or carrier in low near the hi-sec border or low-sec pocket, right now would have to sell or self-destruct their ships instead of moving them because it is more easy.
    Samillian
    Angry Mustellid
    #31 - 2015-08-12 20:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
    We actually have interesting capital and BS content in Low now and we would like to keep it that way.

    Whatever adjustments are finally made to Jump Fatigue and Jump Range can CCP please ensure that LowSec is not thrown under the bus in the rush to placate a vocal minority.

    NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
    Lu Ziffer
    Balanced Unity
    Goonswarm Federation
    #32 - 2015-08-12 20:28:27 UTC
    Overall problem what are capitals good for by now?
    Quote:
    Altering jump ranges
    Look at that after player build stargates arrive.
    Quote:
    Altering jump fatigue curves
    A fixed version or is more reasonable maybe also a charge up timer for the jumpdrive There was also the idea of having a jumpdrive not requiring a cyno and maybe giving it more drawbacks in return.
    Quote:
    Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement

    Not unreasoanable it is a bit like the last season of BSG where basicly they get structure damage from using there jumpdrive.
    Quote:
    Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)

    Very interesting maybe a faster warp system only used by capitals with 0.5-1ly per minute.
    Quote:
    Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)

    This is something for the Observatory Array .
    Robnik Charante
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #33 - 2015-08-12 20:29:45 UTC
    NoobMan wrote:

    TL:DR
    There needs to be an opportunity to travel in a reasonable time inside our Local spheres and return home and repeat as many times as there is content to be had.

    Other thoughts:
    Some sort of Region based fatigue system. Inside the Region you live you are given a certain set of rules that allow you to travel quickly. Soon as you cross into another region you are hit with some type of fatigue. You go one more Region your hit again.


    This seems like it could be a good idea. Perhaps fatigue could be implemented based on both character and location? Imagine a "heat map" that is initially flat. Each time you activate a jump drive in a "cold" area, you receive normal amounts of fatigue, but the location you jumped away from becomes "hot" (on a per-character, not global basis). Surrounding systems also receive a certain amount of "heat" inversely proportional to LY distance from the locus. This "heat" decays over time. Whenever jumping away from a "hot" area, you get a reduction in the amount of fatigue taken from the jump. The idea is that you would take normal amounts of fatigue when jumping to new locations, but you could rapidly jump back and forth within a small area. It would also reduce fatigue buildup on return trips when using one or more midpoints.

    I think a mechanic similar to this could give defenders a much-needed tactical advantage with jump bridges and Titan bridges.
    Darius Caliente
    The Pinecone Squad
    United Federation of Conifers
    #34 - 2015-08-12 20:29:53 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Altering jump ranges


    • Yes
    -- BLOPS should be 10LY
    -- Capitals at 7.5

    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Altering jump fatigue curves


    • Yes
    -- You shouldn't be able to exceed 48 hours of fatigue, no defensive timers should be longer than that, so it still prevents moving around to protect assets but doesn't limit game play as prohibitively as current numbers.

    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based


    • It doesn't matter, you either have multiple ships or multiple characters. Multiple ships is easier to manage and probably going to make more players happy. Since both have a work around, why not aim for highest player highiness.

    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)


    • It would be nice to be able to move big ships (BC and BS) around faster.

    CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)


    • Sov needs benefits and this sounds like a reasonable one.

    Next Quote
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection


    • -- Remove the recent WH Nerfs, Increase Jump Protection, Gate projection is currently fine.

    Next Quote
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement


    • This could be interesting. Obviously that initial jump can't affect combat effectiveness since it would render capitals useless (triage / siege). This would be most interesting on carriers. Allowing the suitcase carrier to return for nomads. Ideally, this would be handled by introducing modes (like T3Ds).

    Carrier - Travel Mode - Reduction to Triage Capabilities and Drone Bandwidth
    Carrier - Combat Mode - Jump Fatigue

    Dread - Travel Mode - Inability to Seige
    Dread - Combat Mode - Jump Fatigue

    This would make it realistic to buy capitals in other regions and move them home again.


    Next Quote
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)


    • See above -- I don't think it needs to be a 24-hour process but rather a quick change mode and an incurred timer.

    Carrier in Travel Mode Jumps (5LY) -- 50% reduction to Triage and Drone Bandwidth (1 hour)
    Carrier immediately switches to combat mode and jumps into fight (5LY) -- Jump Fatigue (1 hour) + Cooldown (6 minutes)

    At this point the carrier would be in the fight with a 50% reduction in drone bandwidth or triage capabilities and an hour of jump fatigue but it has instantly traveled 10 LY.


    Next Quote
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)


    • The use of drugs would be interesting, a skill like Infomorph Synchronizing could provide a small decrease in jump fatigue. A better skill would be one to reduce the jump cooldown. This would be useful for black ops pilots.

    Next Quote
  • What does local-content mean to you?


    • Local content should be 1-2 regions in every direction from Syndicate (for example) -- Cloud Ring, Outer Ring, Placid, Verge Vendor, Solitude. Given the area I would then also include Black Rise. Local Content means that I should be able to hit 50% of the systems in that area via BLOPS and 25% with a capital.

    Next Quote
    Metrics Pron
  • Black-Ops Battleships
  • Capitals


    • Do these graphics account for the people killing off capitals because it's easier to buy one when you move then to try and move your existing capital?

    ----

    The most needed change is not mentioned here -- buffs to black ops. Currently, they do not fit the ninja like style they should support. You need a quick in and out at a decent range. This let's you attack and evac and also let's you stay off intel channels.



    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #35 - 2015-08-12 20:38:16 UTC
    Long range movement: This would be for getting to high sec, or just moving caps about. The idea is it takes time, but not tedium.

    Currently, we already have warp drive. Use it, just in a new way. All ships can do long range warps. You select your destination system, and off you go. Many hours later, you arrive at your destination, say next to a stargate, station or POS. There would be no need to be logged in during the move.

    If you log out, then log in later, but before your scheduled arrival time, you just see your ship in warp. You can chat, or do any other activity you could normally do while in warp. If you log in after your scheduled arrival time, you see the warp effect for two minutes, then you arrive.

    Speed: a warp speed of 1 AU per second translates to a bit more than 1 LY per day. Too slow. A freighter would be in extended warp for over a month to get from deep null to high sec. A speed of 1 to 2 LY per hour may be about right. Or maybe just make any and all long jumps take 20 hours.

    Other considerations: Maybe not to all systems. Maybe only to places you have been, or systems that are not hostile to you. Maybe a long warp incurs some jump fatigue, so fleets cannot do "long warp, then fast jump" to attack. Maybe jump fatigue prevents long warps, so long warps are not a quick escape methods. Its supposed to be a way to move, not to attack.

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    Sizeof Void
    Ninja Suicide Squadron
    #36 - 2015-08-12 20:40:44 UTC
    Jump fatigue was a good idea, in theory, but a mistake in actual practice.

    Why? Due to the supercap proliferation problem.

    In order to truly "balance" null sec, we need to actively encourage more supercap engagements, not discourage them. The goal should be to get supercap destruction rates to exceed the construction rate.

    So, I would recommend disabling jump fatigue for now, and developing other new game mechanics which encourage more supercap use, perhaps with some major sov benefit related to actually risking getting lots of them destroyed. After the supercap count has been significantly lowered, then jump fatigue can always be reactivated.
    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #37 - 2015-08-12 20:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Jump ranges fine? Pff come on.

    Pre-Phoebe anyone could pile on anyone quickly, every big group kept the others in check, and batphone was possible for the small one. Good? Mayne not. Better now? LOL NOPE.

    Now we've entered the snowball era of local dominance. The local dominant group can hit on anyone and everyone because they know literally no meaningful force can reach them in time.

    Lets not be ridiculous here with "oh fatigue and range are fine they just need tweaking"... NO. You're missing the whole f-ing problem!

    The other big elephant in the room is that you created a gameplay mechanic (fatigue) that makes your GAME less FUN.

    FFS you're game designers, don't tell me there is absolutely no way to balance this game other than by nerfing through boredom and chores. 'cause in six months we're gonna have the same discussion about the warp changes, mark my words!

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    Andy Koraka
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #38 - 2015-08-12 20:45:20 UTC
    The exponential scaling of fatigue needs to go. A scaling reactivation delay to prevent rapid projection is important for balance, but the factor (fatigue) that determines your reactivation timer needs to reset in no more than 24 hours.

    A 24 hour capped fatigue timer could still translate into several hours between reactivation, thus preventing dog-piling and helicopter-dicking, but no one should feel obligated to ignore a fleet because taking the bridge will screw their fatigue timer for the next week.

    Lets face it, stacking fatigue that high doesn't have strategic implications anyway because when PL, or NCdot, or BL move they form a convoy, take some choice regional gates, carefully manage their fatigue, and move halfway across the starmap in an hour or two with fatigue reset in time for tomorrow's move op. The only one getting screwed is the guy unavailable for a few weeks due to work/school/deployment ect who has to make the trek 5ly at a time or risk taking gates unsupported.
    Ele Rebellion
    Vertex Armada
    Man I Love Flying Spaceships
    #39 - 2015-08-12 20:54:20 UTC
    I like the limiting of capital force projection. I do wish that my Stratios woudn't get the same jump fatigue timer as a Carrier when I'm using a Black Ops battleship to bridge it. (Personally I feel that ships bridged by BLOPS should get the BLOPS reduction.)


    Though I do want to ask the question. Is the jump Fatigue effective?
    Based on the charts provided it appears that it has done little to effect capital use.. for many people like me. We just purchased additional capitals and staged them in NPC null/low stations... grab a fast ceptor and just burn to which ever capital is closest to the staging area.
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #40 - 2015-08-12 20:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
    How about null to null or high to null or lowsec to null incurs no fatigue or significantly reduced

    Null to lowsec or high to lowsec or lowsec to lowsec incurs fatigue as currently in game

    This will allow null to run around and helicopter **** each other, and still engage lowsec, but if we go to lowsec we will incur fatigue at the maximum rate