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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2015-08-12 21:02:20 UTC
Go on, do it. make CCP reverse the Pheobe changes, I dare you

I double ******* dog dare you. Do it you chickens.

Because here's what will happen if you do, based on the following facts:

(i) There's one superpower in EVE: The Imperium. (I'll define superpower as "able to contest any other group while defending its territory against other other single group")

(ii) Nowhere in 0.0 will be safe from any group anywhere willing to deploy.

Result:

(1) The Imperium will own 0.0. Everyone else in sov 0.0 will have to either kiss the ring or get burned out of their space at the whim of the Imperium leadership.

(2) The Imperium will react to any attempt to coalesce a group that could remotely challenge it.

(3) That's it. Goons own null until they get bored. The end.

So go on, do it. Go ahead I don't even care any more. I worked my fat white arse off for you people to try and get a game state that would allow diversity and independence in 0.0, and people such as myself, Marlona Sky, Manfred Sideous and many others made that case to CCP. Well I haven't got the energy to do it again, nor has anyone else who was at the front of that campaign.

So fine, go right the **** ahead: I'm in the Imperium now and I will take vindictive pleasure in actively burning out every last small independent group from 0.0 and, that done, you'd better believe I will be campaigning like hell to see the same happen to empire too.


buk buk

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lord Longus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-08-12 21:04:22 UTC
I'd prefer a system which only accumulates fatigue once you make a regional jump (be it with your jump drive or gate after using your jumpdrive). The rate on how the fatigue/reactivation timer should grow is not something that I could define right on the spot. But the idea is that you can get into the neighbouring regions without much delay while homeregion + 1 + x will take longer up to a certain degree where just gate travel would be faster again.


If we take the example first used by CCP Greyscale then we have little bobby tables sitting in UJY-HE in Deklein and he wants to go to Atioth UJY-HE in Deklein and he wants to go to Atioth

In this case within the same region, e.g. first 6 jumps he will not accumulate a jump reactivation timer based on distance traveled but just a standard jump reactivation timer of let's say 2 minutes.

However once he jumps into Tribute (by jumpdrive or gate) he will get a (regional) jumpreactivation timer of a formula which includes the amount of lightyears traveled and the amount of used regions (2 so far).

possible formula Jumpdistance (JD) * #used regions. In this case you would get 27ly * 2 which would result in a 54min regional jump reactivation timer (travel within the new regions are still possible though)


So little bobby tables has to wait for 54 before being able to jump into the next region (vale of the silent) but in the mean time he got through the next 2 system accumulating additional 9.5 ly JD

Once he jumps into vale of the silent he's at ~36 ly JD which now gets multiplied with 3 (number of used regions) resulting in a regional jump reactivation timer of 108 minutes


Same thing is the case now if he wants to get into geminate. After another 10 ly JD he's at 48 ly JD which will generate him 192 min of regional jump reactivation timer.


so after a total of roughly 3 h travel he will reach his destination.


With the numbers I used this time we still get too much mobility but the formula could be changed so that the number of regions will get multiplied by an exponential function (e.g. fibonacci sequence) in order to put a maximum travel distance that can be covered in a certain amount of time


This is just a quick outline of what was in my mind after today's roundtable and I wanted a rough idea of it posted asap. So I know that the current outline is far from perfect. But in case the general idea of it gets good feedback I could describe in more detail on how the jumpfatigue system would need to be changed in my opinion.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#43 - 2015-08-12 21:19:53 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


1. I think Jump Range could be increased again.
2. na
3. Ship based wouldn't really make any sense. It should stay character.
4. Not quick sure what to make on this. Like a once a day use for travel to ignore jump fatigue? A Hyperdrive across the EVE verse would take forever... at least technically speaking.
5. na
6. I am surprised someone else actually thought of this. It's one thing I pointed out early on that made no sense to me.
7. I could see this being a thing. Fatigue is a real thing, so to have it affecting a capsuleers ability to fly would make sense.
8. No.
9. Implants and drugs, yes. Skill? Possibly... but, probably not.
Alexis Nightwish
#44 - 2015-08-12 21:23:02 UTC
Another pro-PL change brought to you by Larrikin and Manny!

Just as being able to get a fleet on top of capitals (due to their high sig radii making combat probing very fast) "needed" to be nerfed, now they "need" to undo all the good Phoebe did in order to promote their capital/supercap play style.

At least it appears that they won't **** the rest of the EVE playerbase when they remove something good this time.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

MItchell Jensen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-08-12 21:23:23 UTC
The system that I think would work nice is if players do not accumulate increased amounts of jump fatigue when jumping < X LY.

So lets say that you only want to make a jump to the system beside you. You'll accumulate a couple minutes of jump fatigue. If you jump back, your jump fatigue would only increase by x + y.

So capital pilots can slowboat it to avoid soul-crushing Jump Fatigue, only making short jumps which would take longer
OR
Capital pilots can make long jumps, which if done too much would give you soul-crushing jump fatigue. It's quicker, but you won't be able to make really long jumps for a while.

I may have a fundamental misunderstanding about Jump Fatigue however, since I stopped flying capitals before the Jump Fatigue changes.

CCP Dropbear: rofl

edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2015-08-12 21:24:56 UTC
I think the big thing that isn't being looked at, is factoring Jump Fatigue into the balance of individual ship classes.

Certain ships have no problem travelling by gates, obviously interceptors. But bigger subcaps are obviously less agile when it comes to taking gates and warping system by system. Why not give them an advantage in a fatigue reduction?

Of course subcap fleets are rarely all one class of ship, so that would obviously have to be looked at, but certainly something like Attack BC's have been used as single type fleets. I would think a bonus to jump fatigue could also fit into their hit and run role, except in this case mobility would be dependant on something else for bridging.

The key of course is figuring out that 2-3 jump curve that allows you to be tactical without getting into allow long distance travel to go crazy again.

The other thing that has been interesting with the evolution of capitals taking gates is how capitals are becoming integrated into subcap fleets. Triage is a big thing that stands out here. The problem of course that limits balance when talking about triage is the Ship Maintenance Bay. It's a tad clumsy, but would you consider giving triage modules a penalty to the SMB and drone bandwidth and a fatigue reduction while also increasing the module size so it could not be refit from the fleet hangar? The idea being that triage carriers become truly logistics only and in that role could gain the ability to jump more frequently. Part of this would work in concert with the idea about larger subcaps being more jump mobile. Also I think a lot of people would argue that the triage module itself is fairly balanced.
Gabriel Karade
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#47 - 2015-08-12 21:30:06 UTC
Not sure I would change anything tbh.

Things like 'move mode' sound compelling, with all sorts of scenarios/variations (been thinking for a while about having some sort of long 'spool up timers' to jump further than normal, but build up equivalent fatigue, as an example) but....

....the problem is always same; every thing designed to make moving that bit easier, still gives larger groups an easy option to project overwhelming power from a long way off, Roflstomping some poor sap "for the Lolz".

(particularly when there are eminently predictable things such as Sov/POS timers).

I guess people really just need to get used to the idea you don't move far, or if you do, it takes time and planning.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Iori Asano
Bodacious Space Pirates
#48 - 2015-08-12 21:33:12 UTC
I'd like to see a flat rate for jump fatigue, none of this exponential bullshit.

Ranges could be slightly larger but for the most part i think its okay.

I'd like to learn more about this "hyper-drive". Is it like a minimum distance jump drive than has a long cooldown?
Circumstantial Evidence
#49 - 2015-08-12 21:49:24 UTC
CCP Larrikin's list:

  • Altering jump ranges
  • Not now, this is a core element of major alliance planning that should not change often.

  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Unsure. Agree with Quern's "light hand" suggestion.

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • This idea was shot down in the Phoebe planning phase, and should stay shot.

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • If it was immensely expensive; the fatigue or range benefit should be no more than 5 - 10%.

  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Jumping from a capital system only, not back in: a small benefit for that first jump, would be cool.

  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • I see a lot of capital gate traffic; a small amount of fatigue per gate would make sense to me. WH has its own complications of mass limits and pseudo-randomness, I don't think it needs to be touched.

  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement --- No.
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops... --- No.

  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • No skills; it would simply become the thing everyone with a capital has to have, to fly a capital. Any module ("hyperdrive?") should be immensely expensive and give a mild benefit.

    Similarly, expensive drugs or implants giving a small 5-10% benefit could be ok. I think a fatigue-reducing implant should come with drawbacks, like negating other implants that affect warp (esp. Ascendency). Any new methods of increasing range or reducing fatigue should be stacking-penalized.

    I think any "active methods" should provide a better buff to economic activity, as rich players scramble to acquire a small advantage - than they would toward nerfing the Phoebe changes.

  • What does local-content mean to you?
  • I 'liked' the first Querns post... Grrr Goons! There, I feel better. Phoebe changes have worked, more "local content" is staying local. Major alliances have had to split their capital forces, to keep a credible eye on activity outside their core area of interest.

Michael Pawlicki
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#50 - 2015-08-12 22:14:46 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....


I very much like the idea of jump fatigue drugs. I would prefer to give them a slightly higher side effect chance, but that could be a very interesting industry, especially if the sites that have the materials for production are in 0.0 or 0.1 lowsec systems.
Michael Pawlicki
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#51 - 2015-08-12 22:19:46 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Another pro-PL change brought to you by Larrikin and Manny!

Just as being able to get a fleet on top of capitals (due to their high sig radii making combat probing very fast) "needed" to be nerfed, now they "need" to undo all the good Phoebe did in order to promote their capital/supercap play style.

At least it appears that they won't **** the rest of the EVE playerbase when they remove something good this time.


Sorry if I misinterpreted this, but fatigue hits everyone who owns a capital, whether in PL or not. Even guys in wormholes hae issue with fatigue since it makes it harder to resupply lost caps, and jump freighters take longer to move things. It's a good idea but a poorly implemented mechanic that needs iteration on to make it less painful while still keeping content "local". I eagerly await your response.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#52 - 2015-08-12 22:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
  • Altering jump ranges
  • The jump ranges for Combat Caps seems ok. The jump ranges for Jump Freighters seems ok. I think shortening the ranges further for either would be detrimental. I would be inclined to extend the range of combat caps, but that stems from wanting to move it with fewer jumps from point A to point B.

  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • I really do not have an opinion on this apart from it seems to be quite effective at limiting speedy movement.

  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Very bad idea. Why even have jump fatigue if you are going to do this? Retain it as character based.

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Hmmm.... Hyperspace. I like the idea. But it should take some time for the travel to take place (I suppose ship spinning in hyperspace is a bad idea) but does not require stopping in intermediary systems. Such a system of travel could use the sun in a system as a beacon. A new Citadel Structure could include the ability to detect Hyperspace travel and possibly interdict it. Hyperspace engines could be a Low or Mid slot add on, require a detectable "spool" time, and to add flavor the various modules and metas extend the range of the jumps. Small ships have a more limited range by default than larger ships... Could be used to reach Jove Space?

  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • No. While it is attractive, no. But if you did add it... I suppose it would certainly encourage taking Sov in strategic locations to take the benefit of the Fatigue reduction. It might encourage more sov warfare or it might reignite the "blue donut".

  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Projection is ad hoc, controllable by those jumping and limited by range and fatigue (and the life span of the cyno ship). Gate to gate is predictable as you know where the gate leads from and to but without a scout on the other side you won't know what is there until you jump. Wormholes are unpredictable. You can try to force spawn them till you get to or close to the desired target, but in the end, they are not something any party controls apart from collapsing. Each is useful for what it is and each has their benefits and drawbacks.

  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Will only encourage bigger and bigger blobbing to compensate for the loss in effectiveness. Keeping it as it is is better.

  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Give it fatigue like a Jump Freighter but the same range restriction it currently has.

  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • No modules, Drugs might work....

  • What does local-content mean to you?
  • Anything within 3 jumps.

    Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

    Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

    Max Kolonko
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #53 - 2015-08-12 22:24:16 UTC
    NoobMan wrote:

    ...
    TL:DR
    There needs to be an opportunity to travel in a reasonable time inside our Local spheres and return home and repeat as many times as there is content to be had.


    Other thoughts:
    Some sort of Region based fatigue system. Inside the Region you live in, you are given a certain set of rules that allow you to travel quickly. Soon as you cross into another region you are hit with some type of fatigue. You go one more Region your hit again.

    ...


    Maybe fatigue decay bonus / buildup reduction when jumping to / from systems close to Your capital system?
    Querns
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #54 - 2015-08-12 22:43:27 UTC
    Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
    I 'liked' the first Querns post... Grrr Goons! There, I feel better.

    Do not trouble yourself over this -- the truth transcends the limitations of one's in-game affiliation. I understand completely.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    Current Habit
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #55 - 2015-08-12 23:08:52 UTC
    In retrospect, it would've been better to just get a bunch of player questions, answer them in a huge devblog (along with metrics wherever possible).

    In the beginning, the meeting was decent but deteriorated a shitshow (and that's what it's gonna be remembered as).
    Marranar Amatin
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #56 - 2015-08-12 23:14:42 UTC
    How about this:
    The system you start with at 0 fatigue counts as starting point A. Your fatigue cannot increase above the value that you would have gotten with a series of max distance jumps (without breaks), starting at A (maybe plus 20% or something like that). Otherwise everything is calculated normally. Since this is only a maximum value, it is virtually impossible that this change would lead to more fatigue at any point compared to now.

    This will affect long distance projection only very slightly or not at all. If you travel long distances in a short time, you are below that maximum anyway. Since the maximum assumes jumps without break (which are not possible since you have reactivation) this will lead to a higher value than you would get after waiting for each timer. The +20% account for the assumed route optimization due to the assumed max range jumps (im just guessing with the +20%, maybe a different value is better).

    But it would allow a pilot to operate round his starting point, without accumulating much fatigue. Jumping to a fight, jumping back home, and jumping right back into a fight, would not increase the fatigue much above the level of the first jump - the increase will never be more than 20% compared to the frist jump, you could do this all day long.

    This keeps the original purpose of fatigue - force projection over long distances - intact, while mostly removing the side effect of hindering pilots to jump to fights in their home system.
    Jay Amazingness
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #57 - 2015-08-12 23:23:40 UTC
    75% fatigue reduction for black ops battleships (hull only) - bridge remains at 50%
    50% fatigue reduction for jump bridges in systems with strategic index of 3
    75% fatigue reduction for jump bridges in systems with strategic index of 4
    90% fatigue reduction for jump bridges in systems with strategic index of 5

    Carriers/dreadnoughts have their range upped to 7.5 lightyears with 50% of the fatigue they have now
    Supercarriers have their ranged upped to 6 lightyears however have 50 reduction bonus
    Titans remain 5 lightyears with 50% reduction bonus
    Rorquals range upped to 10 lightyears

    15% fatigue reduction for Jump Portal Generators with racial Titan level 1
    30% fatigue reduction for Jump Portal Generators with racial Titan level 2
    45% fatigue reduction for Jump Portal Generators with racial Titan level 3
    60% fatigue reduction for Jump Portal Generators with racial Titan level 4
    75% fatigue reduction for Jump Portal Generators with racial Titan level 5

    why are you punishing people for owning sov? i mean CCP really doesn't listen to their players for this sort of stuff but when people are unsubbing then they will act

    http://jestertrek.com/eve/players/eve-players-since2008.png

    CEO of serious space alliance I too am gay, a member of the Memeperium

    Geanos
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #58 - 2015-08-12 23:34:29 UTC
    Everything is fine.
    The only thing I would change would be to allow caps to move through hi-sec gates to ease the pain of redeployment a little bit. Of course, while in hi-sec, players should be prevented to use any offensive, logistic or support modules and also launching drones, fighters or fighter bombers.
    Garrett Howe
    New Eden Shipbuilding
    #59 - 2015-08-12 23:45:11 UTC
    I think jump fatigue should reflect the great Eve values of risk and reward.
    -No limit on how frequently you can jump, fatigue still tied to player
    -Larger jumps add more fatigue, jumping in supercapitals builds fatigue faster than capitals, which build it faster than subcapitals
    -The more fatigue you have, the increased chance of exiting a jump with hull/module damage or some other detriment, up to complete loss of ship and/or pod

    This way, there are no artificial limits restricting how players play, and each player has to evaluate the choice of whether to jump or not. Plus, would help thin down capital numbers which are excessive, to say the least.
    Moac Tor
    Cyber Core
    Immediate Destruction
    #60 - 2015-08-12 23:56:09 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Hi Space Friends,

    Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

    Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
    • Altering jump ranges
    • Altering jump fatigue curves
    • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
    • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
    • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
    • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
    • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
    • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
    • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
    • What does local-content mean to you?


    We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

    Metrics Pron


    The power projection changes were some of the best changes made in the last couple of years. It has added a lot more strategy to the game as a small entity now has a chance to use its own capitals without being stomped from half way across the universe.

    If you are looking into this again then I'd suggest looking at reducing black ops and jump freighters in line with the other capital ships in terms of their jump range. Perhaps jump freighters should be reduced to around 8 LY, and black ops 5 LY

    As for the jump fatigue, I've always thought it is a bit excessive that you can build unlimited amounts of fatigue, so that should probably be capped to a month worth of fatigue maximum.

    As Malcanis posted above a lot of hard work was put into getting through these changes. I remember the resistance it was met with and I was happy to see Greyscale push them through in the end despite having to roll back the original plans for JFs.

    My advice would actually be to not take too much notice of feedback you get here, but instead keep looking at the metrics and implement what you feel is best for the game as a whole.