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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#101 - 2015-04-21 10:27:29 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready?

As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them.

Why do you think this is?

Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm?
The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#102 - 2015-04-21 10:30:09 UTC
If you fight back in an annoying manner, aggression will stop. No one wants to screw around with a dozen Blackbirds. You don't need to be a bunch of hardmen with Vindicators and Nestors to accomplish this.

If you surrender, negotiate the surrender in such a manner that your aggressors become your allies in the next conflict. Build relationships with them. Pass on intel on other juicy targets you spot in your area, which will both take heat off your organization, while damaging your competitors.

There are just so, so many ways of dealing with this sort of situation. If someone chooses to complain about it instead, that means they refuse to even try.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2015-04-21 10:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Lucas Kell wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready?

As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them.

Why do you think this is?

Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm?
The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts.


Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence?
Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy?

edit: I know you are looking at this from a nullbear point of view; They have everything to win with immune NPC alts for their freighting needs, they are the biggest supporters of a wardec free universe, god forbid they have to defend their entire logistics chain. That sounds like effort Blink

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#104 - 2015-04-21 10:32:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I'm going to give you a really big clue, OP. And I won't post it on an alt, either. Are you ready?

As someone who has ran/currently is running multiple high-sec piracy/mercenary corporations, I haven't had any problem with incoming war declarations, even in the very, very rare instances in which we actually received them.

Why do you think this is?

Perhaps this is a little old case of not being able to defend what you have, and asking for artificial defense in the form of restrictions implemented by the developers, instead of either scaling down your operations to become less of a target, or becoming proactive and aggressive enough so as not to appear as one to others in the first place, hm?
The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts.


I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#105 - 2015-04-21 10:32:57 UTC
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Like 4 years ago decdodging was considered an exploit and if you did it repeatedly you could be temp/permabanned.

There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It was 100% an exploit ccp said.

Then many people cried and complained for years and eventually it got to be removed from the "known exploits" page.

Nothing about it changed, no other mechanics introduced to balance it, just was exploit for years, got many many complaints, then miracle! No longer enforced.

Its still the same mechanic as when it was enforced as an exploit
Citation needed. I've seen this claim multiple times and not one person has been able to show where CCP stated that this was an exploit. I've never known it to be an exploit and I know that it wasn't an exploit in 2007, 2009 or 2011 and it's not an exploit now or in the past couple of years, so I'm not sure when or where this was ever said.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#106 - 2015-04-21 10:39:10 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence?
Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy?
I think it's irrelevant, because the same people currently farm isk 24/7 with little effect on the economy, they simply do it from 1 man alt corps or NPC corps. I think that allowing them to exist under a united banner would be healthier for the social elements of the game which we know improves player retention. Personally I'd like to see wardecs as they currently stand removed and alternate methods of attacking corps and their income streams which are profitable for the aggressors to be added which aren't simply a "turn off concord" mechanic.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#107 - 2015-04-21 10:45:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
If you fight back in an annoying manner, aggression will stop. No one wants to screw around with a dozen Blackbirds. You don't need to be a bunch of hardmen with Vindicators and Nestors to accomplish this.

If you surrender, negotiate the surrender in such a manner that your aggressors become your allies in the next conflict. Build relationships with them. Pass on intel on other juicy targets you spot in your area, which will both take heat off your organization, while damaging your competitors.

There are just so, so many ways of dealing with this sort of situation. If someone chooses to complain about it instead, that means they refuse to even try.
In the vast majority of cases a corporation would lose far more than simply evading the wardec, with the added bonus of wardec evasion being a good indicator to the wardeccing corp that you have no issues evading, making them less likely to dec you again. I certainly don't think any of the main wardec corps are going to care even remotely about a dozen blackbirds. At the end of the day, the problem is that the current mechanics promote mass farming of easy wardec targets rather than challenging content, and so the targets of wardecs invariably have very little to resist with.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2015-04-21 10:49:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Do you think it's OK for large non PVP organisations to exist and be allowed to farm isk 24/7 freely and without consequence?
Also, do you think this situation would be good for the game and it's economy?
I think it's irrelevant, because the same people currently farm isk 24/7 with little effect on the economy, they simply do it from 1 man alt corps or NPC corps. I think that allowing them to exist under a united banner would be healthier for the social elements of the game which we know improves player retention. Personally I'd like to see wardecs as they currently stand removed and alternate methods of attacking corps and their income streams which are profitable for the aggressors to be added which aren't simply a "turn off concord" mechanic.


Ok Lucas, that puts your point in perspective.

As long as their is no alternative, don't you agree we need to keep wardecs as they are and maybe even think about the social corps combined with strict limits on NPC corps?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#109 - 2015-04-21 10:51:24 UTC
The current meta of very large, very powerful dedicated PVP entities declaring war on large numbers of other entities and those other entities having no war-fighting capability of their own is a product of the changes to the war system.

Carebears begged and pleaded with CCP to have wars be like this. And they continue to beg and plead for CCP to make it worse.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#110 - 2015-04-21 10:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lucas Kell wrote:
The problem with this attitude is that it's simply saying "if your corp wants to do anything other than PvP, it can't". No amount of defense in the world allows you to run non-PvP operations while being wardecced by groups who focus purely on PvP who are multiple times your size. You have no problems because all you want is PvP. That doesn't work for corps who want things outside of that. There's a reason there are no large scale highsec corporations with a non-PvP focus that don't operate almost entirely through NPC alts.

Like every Corp and Alliance, we receive wardecs at different times.

In our experience, the large wardec groups aren't a threat at all. They are running up to a hundred wars at a time. They aren't out looking to specifically target anyone, just catching the wartargets that present themselves as a target, usually through carelessness.

It's the small ones that are more likely to be a threat because they are running fewer wars and have more time to devote to dealing with each one, especially so for small merc groups. Even then they are often running a dozen or so wars, so won't target you all the time, just occasionally each week. Good scouts make it much easier for anyone trying to avoid them and it is definitely possible to keep active, almost with no impact, if you are careful.

That's just our experience and I don't know how representative it is of others.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#111 - 2015-04-21 10:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Lucas Kell wrote:
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Like 4 years ago decdodging was considered an exploit and if you did it repeatedly you could be temp/permabanned.

There is no ifs ands or buts about it. It was 100% an exploit ccp said.

Then many people cried and complained for years and eventually it got to be removed from the "known exploits" page.

Nothing about it changed, no other mechanics introduced to balance it, just was exploit for years, got many many complaints, then miracle! No longer enforced.

Its still the same mechanic as when it was enforced as an exploit
Citation needed. I've seen this claim multiple times and not one person has been able to show where CCP stated that this was an exploit. I've never known it to be an exploit and I know that it wasn't an exploit in 2007, 2009 or 2011 and it's not an exploit now or in the past couple of years, so I'm not sure when or where this was ever said.

Here you go buddy:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19881

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=117249#post117249

The rabbit hole goes deeper if you ask Google. Plenty of dev posts on the old EVE forums.

Now you can tell me how "this isn't proof of anything," et cetera. I'm familiar with your runaround.

Lucas Kell wrote:
In the vast majority of cases a corporation would lose far more than simply evading the wardec, with the added bonus of wardec evasion being a good indicator to the wardeccing corp that you have no issues evading, making them less likely to dec you again. I certainly don't think any of the main wardec corps are going to care even remotely about a dozen blackbirds. At the end of the day, the problem is that the current mechanics promote mass farming of easy wardec targets rather than challenging content, and so the targets of wardecs invariably have very little to resist with.

- If they lose too much by defending, then it's obvious that their operations are too bloated. Any amount of wealth has to have a corresponding, proportional amount of protection. If folding up is the most economical option, then that's just fine. But I don't think it's fine for a corporation to strip-mine all the belts and hog all the moons and then claim that it's too easy for it to be attacked.

- The main wardec corps aren't going to care about a dozen Blackbirds because they never leave the main hubs. Other wadec corps will care, because a dozen Blackbirds is a massive nuisance. It's a fact that most hunter-type wardec corporations are smaller than the targets they go after. Jamming every single enemy in such a scenario is entirely plausible.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2015-04-21 10:56:49 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it.


Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game.
Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions.

- What is your alternative to wardecs?
- Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence?

And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#113 - 2015-04-21 11:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it.


Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game.
Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions.

- What is your alternative to wardecs?
- Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence?

And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7.

D.

Bear

I don't even know why you ask these people these things. They'll give you the same "I want what's best for the game" spiel every single time, without actually putting out a concrete viewpoint on the matter.

But I can tell you that I've infiltrated a significant number of carebear corporations, posed these questions to them while passing myself off as one of the chums, and got exactly the kind of answer you'd expect.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
bonkerss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2015-04-21 11:02:04 UTC
as a 0.0 dweller i do not understand your problem. i live in a environment where we are outnumbered probably 1:300 on a daily basis. having constant wardecs from jita 4-4 gank groups. we have no peace, wherever i go i face hostiles. but **** hell its fun!
just let me tell you this: its easy to avoid pvp in higsec where you dont have to fear samrtbombing carriers, hotdrops and bubbles.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#115 - 2015-04-21 11:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it.


Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game.
Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions.

- What is your alternative to wardecs?
- Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence?

And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7.

D.

Bear


Hi Danelee,

Actually the main issue is to have something to fight over, which is what I suggested in my first post in this thread, I think the new structures as proposed will change this so people have something useful to fight over. You guys should be very excited over that, think that through, because its exciting to me. The whole argument about people dropping corps and evading is irrelevent, because those that have skin in the game will have to defend it, perhaps then your scatter gun approach is no longer needed and then you will stop whining about it. The only issue you will have is that the people who don't want to and can't fight will be able to have no skin in the game and will re-create their corp, so what.

I reject your premise, there are always consequences in Eve and rightly so, and in any case if there was no war decs people would still gank and that is something that has a whole sub culture around it, epic fights around a bumped freighter.

Mean, well actually incorrect, first check out my killboard, I do have one you know, SISI is not playing against other people, its wiped out, its meaningless. My fun in this game is to play regardless of people trying to stop me, yesterday in spite of a war dec from you I went and helped save a freighter from the Goons, we won, I was waiting for one of your chaps to come along and I would have gone for him, but no show.

I am still in corp, still moving around in hisec and neither your alliance or Foresaken have killed me, gold star when you do...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#116 - 2015-04-21 11:21:45 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I liked this post so much, and for those whining about people dissolving their corps to evade war dec's, stop whining, there is no issue with it, the fault is yours for war deccing people who can't fight, get over it.


Hi Dracvlad, I understand you are happy to see someone who posted something that might lean on your thoughts about our game.
Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions.

- What is your alternative to wardecs?
- Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence?

And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7.

D.

Bear

I don't even know why you ask these people these things. They'll give you the same "I want what's best for the game" spiel every single time, without actually putting out a concrete viewpoint on the matter.

But I can tell you that I've infiltrated a significant number of carebear corporations, posed these questions to them while passing myself off as one of the chums, and got exactly the kind of answer you'd expect.


Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact...

The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2015-04-21 11:22:46 UTC
Danalee wrote:

Still, I'd love to challenge your premise and maybe invoke some thoughts other than knee-jerk reactions.

- What is your alternative to wardecs?
- Are you OK with everyone being able to just farm isk without consequence?

And maybe a little bit mean but; Why don't you play on sisi? You can PVE there without consequence 24/7.

D.

Bear



I'll play :)

In reverse order

It not possible to farm with no risk (suicide gankers, LP crashes, market crashes, ship loss to name a few things present in high sec) - but risk can be thoroughly mitigated to a point, as is true in all areas of space.

Wardec alternate depends. The reason for this is....

PvP does not start and end at the barrel of a gun.


So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR? For example, is it to inflict ship loss? Ganking is inarguably going to be more effective in that instance.

Wardecs are a solution to certain set of problems - maybe you want to bash a pos, or disrupt indy corps by making them tear down and wait a week to start up, maybe something else.

They are not, however, the solution to all problems.

So what is the problem you're trying to solve, is a wardec the best option or are there other, more effective methods of PvP available to you to solve that problem?


tl;dr: Are people picking the right tool for the job, or does everything look like a nail as you have a hammer?
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2015-04-21 11:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Dracvlad wrote:
Actually the main issue is to have something to fight over, which is what I suggested in my first post in this thread, I think the new structures as proposed will change this so people have something useful to fight over. You guys should be very excited over that, think that through, because its exciting to me. The whole argument about people dropping corps and evading is irrelevent, because those that have skin in the game will have to defend it, perhaps then your scatter gun approach is no longer needed and then you will stop whining about it. The only issue you will have is that the people who don't want to and can't fight will be able to have no skin in the game and will re-create their corp, so what.

Why be in a corp at all if not to have something to fight for?
Taxes, structures, social cohesion, a name for yourself, a reputation, etc..
People dropping corp in a hearthbeat is hardly irrelevant, it's broken beyond belief.
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, I haven't spoken out for or against what you call 'shotgun approach' let alone whined about it.

Dracvlad wrote:
I reject your premise, there are always consequences in Eve and rightly so, and in any case if there was no war decs people would still gank and that is something that has a whole sub culture around it, epic fights around a bumped freighter.

So you propose a buff to ganking instead to compensate the lack of other risks? Please elaborate.

Dracvlad wrote:

Mean, well actually incorrect, first check out my killboard, I do have one you know, SISI is not playing against other people, its wiped out, its meaningless. My fun in this game is to play regardless of people trying to stop me, yesterday in spit of a war dec from you I went and helped save a freighter from the Goons, we won, I was waiting for one of your chaps to come along and I would have gone for him, but no show.
I am still in corp, still moving around in hisec and neither your alliance or Foresaken have killed me, gold star when you do...

What you are saying is you don't play on sisi because it's meaningless? The fact that no other players are there to try and interfere with your group makes it bland and boring, worthless even?
Good on you for mocking the big bad mercs; Now go and spread that message of defiance to the others instead of crying/whining(?) for nerfs!

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#119 - 2015-04-21 11:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Dracvlad wrote:
Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact...

The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself...

Well if you know how legendary I am, then you should also know that I do this for the entertainment (drama), and to see whether or not I can turn a particular corporation around by steering it towards a modicum of efficiency. The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate.

But you know what? I'm not going to go down this path. Instead, I will tell you that you're right; I do find it a lot of fun taking candy from babies. Now you need tell me why I shouldn't be able to do this in the game called EVE Online.

afkalt wrote:
So my question to the floor is - what are you wardeccing FOR?

This is a good question. My answer: to extract a ransom/maintain a protection racket, or as part of a mercenary contract in which someone else hired me to conduct a war for any reason (I don't ask).

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Solecist Project
#120 - 2015-04-21 11:36:02 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Well you are a legend in your own lunchtime, Eve is the easiest game to infiltrate other entities,its so easy I have zero respect for anyone who does it as all you need to do is buy an existing toon on a clean account and your golden, rather like the OP in fact...

The answer is simply that some people find it too much fun taking candy from babies, it makes their self worth greater, I on the other hand have always played this game against enemies who are more numerous and better equipped then me and that I have thrived and survived is all I need to say in return to you, my killboard speaks for itself...

Well if you know how legendary I am, then you should also know that I do this for the entertainment (drama), and to see whether or not I can turn a particular corporation around by steering it towards a modicum of efficiency. The fact that you feel the need to bring your killboard into this shows just how insecure you feel about your place in this entire debate.

But you know what? I'm not going to go down this path. Instead, I will tell you that you're right; I do find it a lot of fun taking candy from babies. Now you need tell me why I shouldn't be able to do this in the game called EVE Online.

Relevant side question: How often does it happen you recruit people this way?
Like pulling them out of the corp, to your own?

I understand that it can be hard to notice yet locked up potential.

"Recruiting by shooting" works, so this might as well.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia