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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1961 - 2015-03-05 01:03:11 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
No, that's the point. We're not going to provide any content to whatever alliance holds the space. We're going to take their sov with an interceptor fleet because we dictate the battles and they will be unable to catch all of us. Which is essentially almost like Dominion sov where n+1 always wins.

You can't dictate a battle when you're all in ships that do <100 dps. Sure you can cyno some caps in to one or two systems at a time, maybe even try moving them through gates to assist in multiple command point fights but when you're dedicating your numbers into essentially useless combat hulls you won't be able to hold a grid to complete your RFs or captures without bringing in reinforcements in far more killable ships.

This is where you are wrong, with an E-Link, dps is only for ship vs ship. They are saying that they will ignore defending ships for the most part and just roll all of the timers in interceptors. Thus, RFing and creating timers, blowing up iHubs, and taking sov. All the while, denying any real engagement since they can just run away to another spot if a real defense is made.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1962 - 2015-03-05 01:03:18 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
No, that's the point. We're not going to provide any content to whatever alliance holds the space. We're going to take their sov with an interceptor fleet because we dictate the battles and they will be unable to catch all of us. Which is essentially almost like Dominion sov where n+1 always wins.

You can't dictate a battle when you're all in ships that do <100 dps. Sure you can cyno some caps in to one or two systems at a time, maybe even try moving them through gates to assist in multiple command point fights but when you're dedicating your numbers into essentially useless combat hulls you won't be able to hold a grid to complete your RFs or captures without bringing in reinforcements in far more killable ships.


We can torch half of the south in less than an hour with said ships under these changes. We dont even need to fire a shot.
Accki
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1963 - 2015-03-05 01:05:26 UTC
People that are worried about the T2 Entosis link range of 250km been op.

it sounds like its a targeted module, so whatever ship fits it can only burn around in a bubble of its own target range, not the full 250k bubble

The primetime idea definitely needs a different idea behind it
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1964 - 2015-03-05 01:07:53 UTC
Accki wrote:
People that are worried about the T2 Entosis link range of 250km been op.

it sounds like its a targeted module, so whatever ship fits it can only burn around in a bubble of its own target range, not the full 250k bubble

The primetime idea definitely needs a different idea behind it

Sensor boosters... A 100km bubble is plenty big enough to burn around in if you are in an interceptor.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1965 - 2015-03-05 01:08:40 UTC
Accki wrote:
People that are worried about the T2 Entosis link range of 250km been op.

it sounds like its a targeted module, so whatever ship fits it can only burn around in a bubble of its own target range, not the full 250k bubble

The primetime idea definitely needs a different idea behind it


120km range on a cepter.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1966 - 2015-03-05 01:09:22 UTC

I've been thinking about these blitzing inty fleets. My first though was about all the tools at our disposal to counter such lol-fit ships, for which there are plenty. However, further pondering has brought to mine the underlying problem that is driving this ridiculous scenario:

It comes down to the battle of effort. Sov. war, over the years, has basically evolved into break-their-will campaigns, where you first exhaust your opponent's will to fight long before you successfully take their space. The problem with the proposed scenario isn't so much inty's RF'ing structures, but that the effort to reclaim those structures is pretty heavy.

We can prevent inties and dessies from fitting the entosis link, but we'll still have the same situation. It is very easy for an organization to segregate their fleet into many, many small parts that simultaneously attack the sov of many structures. While many of these individuals will be countered, many more will also succeed. This is true anytime you have an empire expanding more than a constellation. Every successfully RF'd structure then results in a not insignificant effort by the defenders to reclaim the system or lose it.

The disparity is in the effort to RF the structure vs the effort to reclaim it. That is really what needs to be balanced.

Truth be told, if no one shows up, I believe the structures should revert back to the original owners control naturally. Also, I feel like there needs to be an additional step (i.e. an investment in effort) before the attackers truly make sov vulnerable.

Focusing on link fit inties is really sidetracking us from the above discussion, which is something we should be having.
Gorgof Intake
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1967 - 2015-03-05 01:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgof Intake
baltec1 wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
No, that's the point. We're not going to provide any content to whatever alliance holds the space. We're going to take their sov with an interceptor fleet because we dictate the battles and they will be unable to catch all of us. Which is essentially almost like Dominion sov where n+1 always wins.

You can't dictate a battle when you're all in ships that do <100 dps. Sure you can cyno some caps in to one or two systems at a time, maybe even try moving them through gates to assist in multiple command point fights but when you're dedicating your numbers into essentially useless combat hulls you won't be able to hold a grid to complete your RFs or captures without bringing in reinforcements in far more killable ships.


We can torch half of the south in less than an hour with said ships under these changes. We dont even need to fire a shot.



Where are you people getting these numbers from? Your arguments are based on a wild assumption someone made on the first page that you could fit this module to a ceptor, of which i can find absolutely none, nada, zip, nothing offical as to what the fitting requirments would be.

After a 100page threadnaught im sure the Devs get it. Fitting these on ceptors will be a bad idea and totally OP. Give Fozzie and Rise and the rest of the Dev team dealing with Sov and ship balancing a little credit.
Mostlyharmlesss
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1968 - 2015-03-05 01:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
No, that's the point. We're not going to provide any content to whatever alliance holds the space. We're going to take their sov with an interceptor fleet because we dictate the battles and they will be unable to catch all of us. Which is essentially almost like Dominion sov where n+1 always wins.

You can't dictate a battle when you're all in ships that do <100 dps. Sure you can cyno some caps in to one or two systems at a time, maybe even try moving them through gates to assist in multiple command point fights but when you're dedicating your numbers into essentially useless combat hulls you won't be able to hold a grid to complete your RFs or captures without bringing in reinforcements in far more killable ships.


What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilà, a bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1969 - 2015-03-05 01:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilá and bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

You realise you then have a 10-40 minute timer depending on indices AFTER the first cycle is finished that you need to keep running your link on that structure for right?

edit: and which can be reversed by a defensive link back to zero if you just run away

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1970 - 2015-03-05 01:13:07 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I've been thinking about these blitzing inty fleets. My first though was about all the tools at our disposal to counter such lol-fit ships, for which there are plenty. However, further pondering has brought to mine the underlying problem that is driving this ridiculous scenario:

It comes down to the battle of effort. Sov. war, over the years, has basically evolved into break-their-will campaigns, where you first exhaust your opponent's will to fight long before you successfully take their space. The problem with the proposed scenario isn't so much inty's RF'ing structures, but that the effort to reclaim those structures is pretty heavy.

We can prevent inties and dessies from fitting the entosis link, but we'll still have the same situation. It is very easy for an organization to segregate their fleet into many, many small parts that simultaneously attack the sov of many structures. While many of these individuals will be countered, many more will also succeed. This is true anytime you have an empire expanding more than a constellation. Every successfully RF'd structure then results in a not insignificant effort by the defenders to reclaim the system or lose it.

The disparity is in the effort to RF the structure vs the effort to reclaim it. That is really what needs to be balanced.

Truth be told, if no one shows up, I believe the structures should revert back to the original owners control naturally. Also, I feel like there needs to be an additional step (i.e. an investment in effort) before the attackers truly make sov vulnerable.

Focusing on link fit inties is really sidetracking us from the above discussion, which is something we should be having.


This is exactly it. The interceptor discussion is just one example of how the underlying issues can be abused. It's too easy for a roaming harassment fleet to inflict serious damage to a system, even one that's lived in.
Saffear Stormrage
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#1971 - 2015-03-05 01:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Saffear Stormrage
I do believe there are some good ideas at work, besides the obvious I have the following questions

Ihub is captured, it explodes - the upgrades I assume explode with it.

New upgrades are only available in hi sec, some quite large requiring freighters and escorts. under the current system if there are no changes to the availability of upgrades does it not favor the large alliances? Or are there changes planned that will make upgrades more accessible by the Capsuleers building them?

Scanning nodes: little unclear - do you need to scan with probes? or does it show up on your dscan like other anomalies?

So there are hints about capitals being rebalanced or having new roles. can we get more info about this before everyone fire sales their Avatar for 300 mil and a can of quafe?

On a final note some things are great just backwards, and the set prime time thing ,,, well that is just lame no other words for it.

Introduce!!! relay nodes!
have 5 spread out in a constellation - same proposed mechanics for the nodes - you must find and hack them with the link -
after first cycle a warning is sent - if you successfully hack the required number the structure become vulnerable in 24hrs. then mechanics as laid out -
this would mean required effort to return, a known time in any timezone, and would greatly reduce the impact of griefing that will happen in the proposed set.

well i'm no expert but that is my idea
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1972 - 2015-03-05 01:13:44 UTC
Gorgof Intake wrote:



Where are you people getting these numbers from? Your arguments are based on a while assumption someone made on the first page that you could fit this module to a ceptor, of which i can find absolutely none, nada, zip, nothing offical as to what the fitting requirments would be.

After a 100page threadnaught im sure the Devs get it. Fitting these on ceptors will be a bad idea and totally OP. Give Fozzie and Rise and the rest of the Dev team dealing with Sov and ship balancing a little credit.


I'm not taking the risk, I will hammer this point relentlessly until they tell us they will not allow frigates to fit these mods.

We need a system that is goon proof because we will abuse any opening.
Jessica Serrato
Serrato Collective
#1973 - 2015-03-05 01:15:04 UTC
I really do not like a lot of the changes. It seems that CCP is constantly adding in new content for the benefit of newer players while at the same time, nerfing and punishing those that have been playing for a long time. Its been going this way for awhile now and I getting tired of seeing it.

You now have-

Mining Barges that just as good as Exhumers, so there is only a marginally benefit to train into Exhumers.

Daily Roaming Inty gangs that are extremely easy to train into, hard to catch, let alone get rid of as they get to choose when to engage.

New Tech 3 Dessies that are insanely OP for there Hull Type.

High Sec space that is geared to push newer players into Null as content in High Sec space is becoming safer, with no real new content.....maybe burner missions but no huge benefit to run them.

Low Sec space that is majority only used for FW, which is good, but rather see more benefit to occupying that space.

Now you want to make Null Sec space a place where you have Frigate/Inty gangs being the majority of the fights for Sov?

Sov is hard, its suppose to be. I don't agree with the current system, but making it into a laughing stock of "okay during this 4 hours we need 100 Frigates to remove Sov" isn't going to make it fun, its going to make it more of a pain. A game of "okay whoever collects the most nodes the fastest wins". Not to mention ignoring a few of the other unpleasant things in the game that people have been screaming about for years.

I think this is an okay start, but the new changes as is are seriously lacking thought and easily abused by loop-holers. I would prefer to see this held off til a more thought out system has been planned, not a rushed patch fix.
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1974 - 2015-03-05 01:15:56 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilá and bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

You realise you then have a 10-40 minute timer depending on indices AFTER the first cycle is finished that you need to keep running your link on that structure for right?

edit: and which can be reversed by a defensive link back to zero if you just run away


If even a few of those timers are successful, it can disrupt a region and require hours of 'grinding' the command nodes back to the original state.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1975 - 2015-03-05 01:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilá and bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

You realise you then have a 10-40 minute timer depending on indices AFTER the first cycle is finished that you need to keep running your link on that structure for right?

edit: and which can be reversed by a defensive link back to zero if you just run away


If even a few of those timers are successful, it can disrupt a region and require hours of 'grinding' the command nodes back to the original state.

Exactly so who's worse off, the alliance with hundreds of systems and timers to worry about (and manage their fleet distribution and defence over) or the one with just two or three?

Goons know this is gonna bend them over backwards logistically - just one bad day and they then need to deal with potentially hundreds or even thousands of timers to grind down in their own space.

edit: And aside from spy intel, they don't know which one's are gonna escalate and which were just one person trolling them for lols on their own.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1976 - 2015-03-05 01:22:07 UTC
Jessica Serrato wrote:

Sov is hard, its suppose to be. I don't agree with the current system, but making it into a laughing stock of "okay during this 4 hours we need 100 Frigates to remove Sov" isn't going to make it fun, its going to make it more of a pain. A game of "okay whoever collects the most nodes the fastest wins". Not to mention ignoring a few of the other unpleasant things in the game that people have been screaming about for years.

I think this is an okay start, but the new changes as is are seriously lacking thought and easily abused by loop-holers. I would prefer to see this held off til a more thought out system has been planned, not a rushed patch fix.


This is exactly it. The new system has too many obvious loop-holes that we as a community have already figured out. Sov should be earned. It requires a certain amount of grinding.

The new system makes it cost nothing to own 'sov' with a TCU but makes the iHub extremely important, more so than almost anything else.
Mostlyharmlesss
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1977 - 2015-03-05 01:23:03 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilá and bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

You realise you then have a 10-40 minute timer depending on indices AFTER the first cycle is finished that you need to keep running your link on that structure for right?

edit: and which can be reversed by a defensive link back to zero if you just run away


If even a few of those timers are successful, it can disrupt a region and require hours of 'grinding' the command nodes back to the original state.

Exactly so who's worse off, the alliance with hundreds of systems and timers to worry about (and manage their fleet distribution and defence over) or the one with just two or three?

Goons know this is gonna bend them over backwards logistically - just one bad day and they then need to deal with potentially hundreds or even thousands of timers to grind down in their own space.



How can you be this jaded with Ggrrgoon? This will hurt everyone in null sec, but GSF the very least as we are one of the only alliances that actually uses our space.

Here you go: http://i.imgur.com/n84nWAH.png

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#1978 - 2015-03-05 01:24:32 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1979 - 2015-03-05 01:25:27 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
What are you talking about? If we reinforce the entire region we just move 7 jumps to another constallation and voilá and bunch of new timers. By the time the 5 minute Entosis cycle is done the hostile fleet might have arrived if they're flying frigates - Which, with 200 people will end quickly. If they're flying anything larger than that they'll never catch up to us before we finish our reinforcement cycles.

They could take a jump bridge, but then next time we move they'll have jump fatigue and won't be able to do it again for +5 minutes.

You realise you then have a 10-40 minute timer depending on indices AFTER the first cycle is finished that you need to keep running your link on that structure for right?

edit: and which can be reversed by a defensive link back to zero if you just run away


If even a few of those timers are successful, it can disrupt a region and require hours of 'grinding' the command nodes back to the original state.

Exactly so who's worse off, the alliance with hundreds of systems and timers to worry about (and manage their fleet distribution and defence over) or the one with just two or three?

Goons know this is gonna bend them over backwards logistically - just one bad day and they then need to deal with potentially hundreds or even thousands of timers to grind down in their own space.

edit: And aside from spy intel, they don't know which one's are gonna escalate.


The small alliances who get swamped by fleets of 200 interceptors and get their iHubs blown up constantly, that's who loses. This does not hurt goons, they don't care if their unused space is burned. It's easy for people to jump in and take sov, but it's also too easy to completely disrupt an active community in a constellation.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1980 - 2015-03-05 01:26:35 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


We can dump several hundred of them on you for fun. Several thousand if someone kicks the hive.