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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#1981 - 2015-03-05 01:29:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


We can dump several hundred of them on you for fun. Several thousand if someone kicks the hive.


On a single sov sure, but you cant be everywhere.

Numbers are numbers, if you want to take a specific sov with your armada, i hope you still be able to do it Lol
Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1982 - 2015-03-05 01:32:08 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


We can dump several hundred of them on you for fun. Several thousand if someone kicks the hive.


On a single sov sure, but you cant be everywhere.

Numbers are numbers, if you want to take a specific sov with your armada, i hope you still be able to do it Lol


I think you're underestimating just how fast insta-warp interceptors can go from one system to another. Then imagine 200 of them that can't be tackled except when they use the Entosis Link.

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Robertson Nolen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1983 - 2015-03-05 01:33:46 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


Except, the intis go after that one ship or bring backup. Then the other side brings backup. Then the one side decides that carrier support can help them destroy the enemy entosis links faster, then the other side brings their carriers then ect. and we are back to square one.

It will become a game of numbers and highsec carebear corps like mine can exploit it as well. We may have no interest in taking sov but if we can entosis your stuff and bait a fight you bet we are going to do it (especially the Ihubs because no one will want to let those be destroyed).

SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1984 - 2015-03-05 01:34:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

won't take us four hours to RF the entire region, just 30 minutes


Stop with the mittani trollceptor.

A single ship with a link is enough to counter your ridiculous wing of trollceptor.


We can dump several hundred of them on you for fun. Several thousand if someone kicks the hive.

I'm going to enjoy murder zoning every last one of your beloved interceptors.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1985 - 2015-03-05 01:35:22 UTC
Devi Loches wrote:
The small alliances who get swamped by fleets of 200 interceptors and get their iHubs blown up constantly, that's who loses. This does not hurt goons, they don't care if their unused space is burned. It's easy for people to jump in and take sov, but it's also too easy to completely disrupt an active community in a constellation.

Why are they going to bother with small alliances when they could be doing it to their main competitors instead? If they don't need the space and it's not a strategic objective?

Sure they'll probably go on a great big rampage across the whole of nullsec at the start and try to flip everything just to throw their weight around and show that the mechanic is broken but ultimately it achieves nothing for them if they're so easily flipped back again once their attention is elsewhere.

Now if their big neighbours who aren't so 4chan memeworthy griefers actually start using it as a strategic way to harrass and subdue the hive then that's where they'll start pouring their own efforts in return.

So yes, you'll occasionally get sand thrown in your face by the playground bully but a week later it'll all be back to normal.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1986 - 2015-03-05 01:35:51 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
If the changes goes through like they are now, I'm unironically going to take a 200 man interceptor fleet to Provi and reinforce the entire region in 4 hours.


Wouldn't that mean you'd need to fly a subcap, Mostly?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1987 - 2015-03-05 01:38:41 UTC
Papa Django wrote:

On a single sov sure, but you cant be everywhere.


Are you kidding? Hell's bells, if frigates can fit these things, they will require even less resources and commitment than an afk cloaker, for vastly greater effect.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Bel Tika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1988 - 2015-03-05 01:42:44 UTC
Ok first forgive my ignorance but i need to ask some things to understand them.

Doesnt a ship need to link this module an stay "in touch" for it to work? if so, if the defender of the system is there why cant they defend said structure/system? the ship cant be repped, cant warp etc etc so if you are defending your system and actually occupying your system what is the problem? if you have the system but do not do anything with it, again what is the problem?

If a corp has say 30 systems and i (for lack of better knowledge) probe them 30 systems with solo frigs all with Entosis Links and find that said corp cannot hold them 30 systems, what is the problem? if i find the corp can easily defend all systems, what is the problem?

Im missing alot an not understanding much tbh, but if the corporation that holds 30 systems cant in actual fact hold them why should they? if that corp or alliance is better suited at defending 5 systems then should it not? shouldn't the other 25 systems not be freed up for other corps/alliances?

Think i need to go back to my smoke an re-read that blog lol, just trying to understand
Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1989 - 2015-03-05 01:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
Eli Apol wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
The small alliances who get swamped by fleets of 200 interceptors and get their iHubs blown up constantly, that's who loses. This does not hurt goons, they don't care if their unused space is burned. It's easy for people to jump in and take sov, but it's also too easy to completely disrupt an active community in a constellation.

Why are they going to bother with small alliances when they could be doing it to their main competitors instead? If they don't need the space and it's not a strategic objective?

Sure they'll probably go on a great big rampage across the whole of nullsec at the start and try to flip everything just to throw their weight around and show that the mechanic is broken but ultimately it achieves nothing for them if they're so easily flipped back again once their attention is elsewhere.

Now if their big neighbours who aren't so 4chan memeworthy griefers actually start using it as a strategic way to harrass and subdue the hive then that's where they'll start pouring their own efforts in return.

So yes, you'll occasionally get sand thrown in your face by the playground bully but a week later it'll all be back to normal.


Why would 200 inteceptors bother with small alliances? Because why not! Let's make that 20 man alliance lose their systems because we can. You don't realize the extend of this. If an ihub blows up it requires a FREIGHTER to get a new one. Now, imagine these systems are 15 jumps into null sec. Not every alliance has the ISK for a Titan to shortcut those freighters.

And that's just barely scratching the surface. Imagine the alliance storage being trapped in the station making the alliance unable to use their assets for, easily, a week thanks to the set 48 hour timer per reinforcement.

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1990 - 2015-03-05 01:46:12 UTC
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
Why would 200 inteceptors bother with small alliances? Because why not! Let's make that 20 man alliance lose their systems because we can. You don't realize the extend of this. If an ihub blows up it requires a FREIGHTER to get a new one. Now, imagine these systems are 15 jumps into null sec. Not every alliance has the ISK for a Titan to shortcut those freighters.

Exactly, why not, just for lols...then you realise that it's not very much lols orbitting something with a laser for 40 minutes and running away as soon as a defensive fleet shows up and stop doing it. Thanks for confirming.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Mostlyharmlesss
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1991 - 2015-03-05 01:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
Eli Apol wrote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
Why would 200 inteceptors bother with small alliances? Because why not! Let's make that 20 man alliance lose their systems because we can. You don't realize the extend of this. If an ihub blows up it requires a FREIGHTER to get a new one. Now, imagine these systems are 15 jumps into null sec. Not every alliance has the ISK for a Titan to shortcut those freighters.

Exactly, why not, just for lols...then you realise that it's not very much lols orbitting something with a laser for 40 minutes and running away as soon as a defensive fleet shows up and stop doing it. Thanks for confirming.


For someone as Ggrrgoon as you, you sure do not understand our mentality.

Also you still haven't told me why we are going to be hurt the most from this change, as per my post above.

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1992 - 2015-03-05 01:47:42 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

Exactly, why not, just for lols...then you realise that it's not very much lols orbitting something with a laser for 40 minutes and running away as soon as a defensive fleet shows up and stop doing it. Thanks for confirming.


We rapecaged an entire system for a week to deadzone it. 40 min is nothing to us.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1993 - 2015-03-05 01:48:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Exactly, why not, just for lols...then you realise that it's not very much lols orbitting something with a laser for 40 minutes and running away as soon as a defensive fleet shows up and stop doing it. Thanks for confirming.


We rapecaged an entire system for a week to deadzone it. 40 min is nothing to us.

What about the other 51 of the year?

And you were talking about doing this across the whole of the south, that's 40 minutes for every structure in the south of the map...

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1994 - 2015-03-05 01:50:08 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
The sovereignty system Fozzie described in the dev blog he wrote is extremely poorly thought and half baked. CCP should just take it back to the drawing board and rethink. Meanwhile, perhaps they would also do well to review their assumptions about EVE players and how they behave and plan their actions in game. I'm going to write more about what I think are the peripheral causes as to why Fozzie and others are constantly failing later. For now, I'd like to elaborate on what I think is the central cause behind the dev team's shortsightedness.

It might be just that the faulty line of thought on the dev team's part is assuming that these poorly designed changes will result in people fighting more. I think they are expecting that they can really change bloc (and individual player) behavior solely through changing rules and mechanics and avoiding touching risk-reward balance.

They are wrong.

For instance, as Arrendis mentioned before, Encounter Surveillance Systems weren't adopted en masse by null residents. They were supposed to create fights. Because they did not see any serious adoption, not many fights were created through them.

Has any developer ever thought about why they weren't adopted by null residents?

More importantly, why is Fozzie's dev blog containing statistics makes him sound like an apologist, or worse, a distressed middle-level executive trying to defend his design through cooking up his numbers, when his plan obviously failed to achieve the intended objectives? If you look at the number carefully, Fozzie is only able to say 'hurray, my plan is doing okay and null sec pvp-related player deaths increased', because Pandemic Legion got bored and decided to farm HERO coalition. I especially laughed out loud and ended up spilling the Turkish coffee I've been sipping when I saw that Deklein region, the place I live in and the revered Goon homeland, has seen PvP related losses decrease by 20% since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue hit. Fozzie isn't just doing a terrible job at re-imagining sovereignty, he is also doing a terrible job at covering his own back so that he and his plan can look good to his immediate superiors who no doubt track his so called progress.

I have said this before when Greyscale announced plans for Phoebe before and I'll say it again;

No amount of change and skewing of sandbox mechanics towards a theme park setting will result in players fighting and causing destruction just for the sake of doing so. People also will not fight and create destruction just so that Fozzie and CCP are appeased and are able to recite statistics without good analysis.

Holding space in null is currently is not worth much for all the effort and resources it takes. Even with these changes, it will still not be worth it.

EVE players will always collaborate, cooperate to minimize risks, and the instances of fights that they do not want to take.

The structures that make up the large entities cannot and will not be dismantled through the change of game play mechanics. You cannot change human behavior and tendency to socialize, cooperate and collude to further mutual goals through introducing ~bright ideas~ like this.

We need developers that are ruthlessly pragmatic and in possesion of first-hand knowledge and experience of life in nullsec to fix nullsec, not developers moonlighting as bright idea fairies that don't know the game and the mechanics they are working on. It's the second type of developers who always end up with introducing Hail Mary plans that are destined to fail like this one.


The eloquennce of this brought a bitter tear of joy to my jaded eyes. Bravo sir, you are a hero of the motherlamd.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1995 - 2015-03-05 01:50:49 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:


And you were talking about doing this across the whole of the south, that's 40 minutes for every structure in the south of the map...


That we can hit all at once. Under the current plans we could attack all of nullsec in a single weekend.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1996 - 2015-03-05 01:51:18 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Exactly, why not, just for lols...then you realise that it's not very much lols orbitting something with a laser for 40 minutes and running away as soon as a defensive fleet shows up and stop doing it. Thanks for confirming.


We rapecaged an entire system for a week to deadzone it. 40 min is nothing to us.

What about the other 51 of the year?

And you were talking about doing this across the whole of the south, that's 40 minutes for every structure in the south of the map...


You really have no feel for just how masochistic we are, have you? :)
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1997 - 2015-03-05 01:55:10 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

the inteceptor then shrugs, burns off grid, and hits another node or sov structure, and cannot be stopped if the pilot uses a shred of intellect while burning around a region

you can't bridge around them due to fatigue, you can't warp faster than them, and outside of serious pilot error, they cannot be caught while traveling

stop focusing on the individual fight (especially since you are bad at theorycrafting them)


Again, an empire of APPROPRIATE SIZE will give zero craps about this.

Funny that.

the problem is that the appropriate size to counter interceptor shenanigans increases by ten for every pilot in the opfor

did it occur to you that with our numbers, we can make any defense untenable


Like you did with siphons? The same melodrama was used there. And sure, for a while indeed ....then people got bored

that is because siphons do practically nothing

being able to pop an ihub by using a halitosis module means that you set back the sov index 100 days, wipe out the industrial/military index, and require between one and nine freighters to visit the system, per ihub you pop

this is considerably more significant than making 8m isk/hr with a mandatory twice a day login by siphoning a moon



The fact you can't build iHUB upgrades or Outpost upgrades is stupid. Make the BPO's already
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1998 - 2015-03-05 01:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Arrendis wrote:
You really have no feel for just how masochistic we are, have you? :)
Well since you'd rather blue the whole of nullsec than put up with grinding under the current system I don't really think you've got it in you to grind out the whole of the South in smaller 40 minute chunks - at least not over and over again for every week of the year because it keeps getting flipped straight back as soon as you head home.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1999 - 2015-03-05 01:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
I must admit to being moderately amused by the folks who think that activating a defensive entosis link somehow prevents the interceptor from causing further harm.

Sure, the interceptor at that particular node gets blocked, but he is free to turn around, burn off grid, then travel to a system 10 jumps away in the time it takes you to disengage your link.

It's not about the individual sov structure or command node; it's about the ability for the interceptor to, when flown by a moderately competent pilot, to choose to disengage at will should the situation become untenable, and to begin poking another sov structure outside of the reach of any ship but another interceptor.

They feel no pity, no remorse, and no fear, and cannot be stopped. Even the Terminator wasn't so lucky.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Shodan Of Citadel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2000 - 2015-03-05 01:56:42 UTC
How are alliances to establish empires??



CULTURE towers set in up to 5 key constellations that radiate the alliance's influence like the Sansha do.

In surrounding constellations there are smaller bonuses and penalties. TCU's and SBU's become relays and disruptors, respectively. Most of the 'culture' penalties aren't going to affect ships -just the ability to attempt to conquer. The various system indices could be affected by culture signal. TCU's spread your influence, SBU's counter your influence until so low that capitals can some in and smack down TCU's.

harassing alliances vs conquering territory should be very different things. Having 200 ceptors affect the established alliance's hold -idiotic, but they should be able to reduce some of your indices for 2-3 days.



An Interceptor class "WCS" in the lows should be required for ceptors to avoid bubbles or they get caught in them. Not a bad idea for both types of T2 haulers either.