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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Author
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#161 - 2015-02-27 16:09:30 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
suddenly i feel like seeing the neighbours Boy sitting in the sandbox calling mommy and blaming the 5 year older kid for destroying his plan to world dominance.

just like, if i can't kill it quick enough, iam gonna run to mommccp and make them disappear through another way.

grow balls. seriously.


You could just bring your Carrier on-grid and get the same results, but that would require a tangible level of risk. So please take your Ad-Hominems elsewhere.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Nartel Vortok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2015-02-27 16:09:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced


ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right?
you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier.

you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...


If you have no idea how skynet works then you probably shouldn't post here. The Carrier is 40m outside a friendly POS, with a heated MWD and agility rigs and can get back into a friendly POS in under 1 second. The Einherjis are assisted to the interceptors from this position. For all intents and purposes it is completely invulnerable. A t2 Fit Thanatos costs around 2b including fighters, but it is an almost invulernable asset. The tangible assets you will lose are the Stilettos in this example on the grid, and probably rarely the fighters if the Stilettos aren't paying attention, and the Vindicator. The assisting Carrier in a proper configuration is at almost no risk what so ever.


Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?

Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?

That doesn't make any damn sense.


They do get bonuses dumpass.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#163 - 2015-02-27 16:11:00 UTC
Please leave the ability for fighters to warp back to the carrier in the event of the carrier warping out. It would really suck losing 200m ISK fighters every time you get a socket error. Additionally, it gives fighters something unique as opposed to other drones.

This also encourages people to rat in carriers. It has been years since I have actually ratted with a carrier, but less than a week since I have helped kill ratting carriers. If rats kill your fighters every time you get a socket error or you lose fighters every time you try to save your carrier, people will either use heavy drones or not rat with the carrier.

Additionally, make fighters give killmails and make it so they cannot warp out of bubbles or when pointed.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Alexis Nightwish
#164 - 2015-02-27 16:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Simply removing it, while effective, probably isn't the best solution. CCP has developed a disturbing track record of simply removing a feature they see as a problem rather than modifying it to a point of balance. For example, there were several clever ideas for how to change medical clone mechanics to maintain the penalty of death while removing the more punishing aspects of it, but instead the feature was simply removed and called a success.

Instead of just outright removing fighter assist, why not make it so that:

A) Fighters/FBs cannot be assigned if the carrier/SC is within some distance of a forcefield (EDIT: or a stargate). 100km or something.

B) Should a carrier/SC come within that distance, all assigned fighers/FBs return to and orbit their mothership automatically.

C) All assigned drones of any type (lights to FBs) lose all bonuses from their parent ship and parent ship's pilot. So no hull bonuses from the ship, no skill bonuses from the pilot, no item bonuses from modules/rigs/etc. They would never be better than their base stats while assigned.


Lastly, I hear rumors that you're thinking of removing fighter/FB warp. Carriers/SCs are broken strong and need a rebalance, but fighter/FB warp is not one of the things that are broken. Please don't remove one of the defining features of carriers and super carriers. Whenever a hear a newbro hearing about fighter/FB ability to warp they're always like "Woah, that is ******* cool!"

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#165 - 2015-02-27 16:11:50 UTC
Nartel Vortok wrote:


They do get bonuses dumpass.


Classic, you didn't understand what you were reading and somehow I'm the Dumpass.

You sir are brilliant.
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#166 - 2015-02-27 16:12:49 UTC
The whole problem started when DDAs and omnis started working on fighters ...and of course, the supercarrier bonuses to fighters that make them do ~7k DPS.

My solution: Make the fighters inherit the bonuses of the assigned ship instead of the carrier *or* nerf DDAs/Omnis so the bonuses only apply to drones on the same grid.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#167 - 2015-02-27 16:12:49 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Please leave the ability for fighters to warp back to the carrier in the event of the carrier warping out. It would really suck losing 200m ISK fighters every time you get a socket error. Additionally, it gives fighters something unique as opposed to other drones.

This also encourages people to rat in carriers. It has been years since I have actually ratted with a carrier, but less than a week since I have helped kill ratting carriers. If rats kill your fighters every time you get a socket error or you lose fighters every time you try to save your carrier, people will either use heavy drones or not rat with the carrier.

Additionally, make fighters give killmails and make it so they cannot warp out of bubbles or when pointed.


Exactly this, I didn't even consider disconnects.
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#168 - 2015-02-27 16:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Suitonia
Jenn aSide wrote:


Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?

Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?

That doesn't make any damn sense.


CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are part of the game design team and are not programmers. The Fighter Assist code has likely not been touched in over 10 years when it was put out in the Red Moon Rising expansion in 2006. There are several bugs in the fighter assist code and since CCP has a problem with applying/deapplying skills/bonuses from other grids in the past (See OGB) and the Brain-In-A-Box project, it would probably take incredible amount of time from the development team to get these bugs fixed. At which point, fighter assist will go back to being a marginalized and rarely used mechanic, of which CCP would have now spent hundreds of development hours on.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Nartel Vortok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2015-02-27 16:13:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nartel Vortok wrote:


They do get bonuses dumpass.


Classic, you didn't understand what you were reading and somehow I'm the Dumpass.

You sir are brilliant.


Assigned fighters do inherit bonuses from the carrier pilot/their ship and the mods fitted.
ScorpionD III
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#170 - 2015-02-27 16:14:26 UTC
Somethings in eve are just no sense.

Why remove the assist mecanic?

Risk x Reward not good enough?

But who says it have to be? A man in a tank have a huge advantage against a group of soldiers. I think eve have to be a more scientifical aproach. Make thinks possible like the real world. In same aspects this already happens, then why not expand?

I read some stuff about the tatical cruiser being overrated over bs, but anyone has remembered the T3 it's more expensive than a regular bs, then it's just enough to be better, i can fly a BS in a month, and need far more time to train a T3 to use.

Why i can't anchor a stationary sentry's, near a station or gate or even alone in space?
Why i can't stop a warp in the middle way?
Why ships have to change angle to maneauver?
Why a ship can still cloacked without using it's own energy?
Why a ship can't hide yourself from the communication hub?
Why in the vast universe of eve, the ships have only the aproved design?

So many questions.
I know, i know, the answer to all my questions is game balance, but it is confuse, in one hand CCP want to give freedom to EvE universe, in other, whe don't have really freedom.

Finnaly.

Answering the main question.

I Against the assist nerf. If you want guys make it be necessary to use bandwith from the assisted ship, but atention, if i use my drones to defend a ship that it's not the case, but if i delegate drones, its just enought to have used the bandwith.
Remember the fighter in the game lore, have a pilot inside, it's like a frig, than its just enought to have far more freedom.
Ambassador Spock
Doomheim
#171 - 2015-02-27 16:14:36 UTC
Why not add a fighter-warping 'switch', like with the new corp friendly fire? A simple option in the drone menu on whether you want to allow your fighters to warp or not.

 --  - Ambassador Spock

"Vulcans never bluff."

Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-02-27 16:15:16 UTC
Ambassador Spock wrote:
Why not add a fighter-warping 'switch', like with the new corp friendly fire? A simple option in the drone menu on whether you want to allow your fighters to warp or not.


That's the purpose of "Attack and Follow".
Nartel Vortok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2015-02-27 16:15:25 UTC
ScorpionD III wrote:
Somethings in eve are just no sense.

Why remove the assist mecanic?

Risk x Reward not good enough?

But who says it have to be? A man in a tank have a huge advantage against a group of soldiers. I think eve have to be a more scientifical aproach. Make thinks possible like the real world. In same aspects this already happens, then why not expand?

I read some stuff about the tatical cruiser being overrated over bs, but anyone has remembered the T3 it's more expensive than a regular bs, then it's just enough to be better, i can fly a BS in a month, and need far more time to train a T3 to use.

Why i can't anchor a stationary sentry's, near a station or gate or even alone in space?
Why i can't stop a warp in the middle way?
Why ships have to change angle to maneauver?
Why a ship can still cloacked without using it's own energy?
Why a ship can't hide yourself from the communication hub?
Why in the vast universe of eve, the ships have only the aproved design?

So many questions.
I know, i know, the answer to all my questions is game balance, but it is confuse, in one hand CCP want to give freedom to EvE universe, in other, whe don't have really freedom.

Finnaly.

Answering the main question.

I Against the assist nerf. If you want guys make it be necessary to use bandwith from the assisted ship, but atention, if i use my drones to defend a ship that it's not the case, but if i delegate drones, its just enought to have used the bandwith.
Remember the fighter in the game lore, have a pilot inside, it's like a frig, than its just enought to have far more freedom.


Eve isn't real life, risk vs reward is considered in balance, isk is not.
Admiral Whatever
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2015-02-27 16:15:36 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
As I said in another thread, what really sucks is that nerfs like this limit creativity (while rewarding the uncreative for being...uncreative).

I've used fighter delgation to combat cloaky campers. I fit out a tanked T1 hauler and assigned fighters to it and kept right on ratting, daring the camper to hot drop me and my 9 mil isk worth of ship. This rather than running to the forums screaming "CCP, someone is cloaked in my upgraded system, DO SOMETHING!". Without fighter delegation, that's over with.

Oh, it's not the end of screwing around with afk cloaky camper's heads (my FoF missile+sentries warp core stabbed ECM busrting MJD Typhoons and Armageddons laugh at your false hot drop threat Mr. Cloaky Camper), but it is yet another nail in the coffin of creativity in this game.


lol I think that is the perfect example for showing how goddamn broken fighters are...

Not just assigning either, but their EHP, their tracking, their DPS, the fact they warp instantly, and of course, the ZERO goddamn risk which is something CCP has been talking about recently...

In terms of "creativity" you can go ahead and get creative with a non-broken game mechanic. mmmmK?

NERF FIGHTERS YES
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#175 - 2015-02-27 16:15:56 UTC
Ambassador Spock wrote:
Why not add a fighter-warping 'switch', like with the new corp friendly fire? A simple option in the drone menu on whether you want to allow your fighters to warp or not.


You can already do that by just unticking the "fight and follow" (I forgot how it actually appears) button.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#176 - 2015-02-27 16:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Suitonia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?

Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?

That doesn't make any damn sense.


CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are part of the game design team and are not programmers. The Fighter Assist code has likely not been touched in over 10 years when it was put out in the Red Moon Rising expansion in 2006. There are several bugs in the fighter assist code and since CCP has a problem with applying/deapplying skills/bonuses from other grids in the past (See OGB) and the Brain-In-A-Box project, it would probably take incredible amount of time from the development team to get these bugs fixed. At which point, fighter assist will go back to being a marginalized and rarely used mechanic, of which CCP would have now spent hundreds of development hours on.


None of those 'bugs' matter is fighters can't hit anything smaller than a Dread. And that's the whole point.

Removing fighter delegation because of drone mods/bonuses being applied to fighters (that can then be delegated) is overpowered is exactly like saying "you robbed a bank and used a car for the get away, I'm going to let you keep the money and go free and arrest the guy who sold you the car!".-Signed, CCP Police Department.
Tung Yoggi
University of Caille
#177 - 2015-02-27 16:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tung Yoggi
Assigning to BC and up, for instance, doesn't make the current mechanic less horrible. You will still have 4k DPS, perfect tracking drones of doom without a sign of any capital on field.

Now, since we are talking about broken 'assistance' off-grid gamemechs, it's about time to do something about off-grid boosters. Oh, and don't forget to add some content in the meantime ! It might help when people start rage-cancelling their alts' subs.

Much love
sceptiQ
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2015-02-27 16:17:38 UTC
removing the warp ability is killing the last non dead caps ... bad idea


does ccp buy all the useless carriers?
can the carrier pilotes have their skillpoints back?

Jamy Lannister
Doomheim
#179 - 2015-02-27 16:18:17 UTC
Why not allow Supers to assist drones and not allow normal carriers due to a stronger skynet? Also could you not come up with a RP way of saying communication in assisting fighters in lowsec doesnt work. That the systems have a Electro magnetic pulse that doesnt allow them to be assisted off grid?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2015-02-27 16:19:27 UTC
Nartel Vortok wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nartel Vortok wrote:


They do get bonuses dumpass.


Classic, you didn't understand what you were reading and somehow I'm the Dumpass.

You sir are brilliant.


Assigned fighters do inherit bonuses from the carrier pilot/their ship and the mods fitted.


And where did I say they didn't?

Like i said, you don't understand what was posted but decided to jump in and say something stupid anyways. That's a 'you' problem, not a 'me' problem.