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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Author
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#121 - 2015-02-27 15:41:23 UTC
I don't see the Problem?

in the right Corner you have an attacking force with aprox 2-3 Billion worth in ships

in the left Corner you have a ship with assisted fighters with aprox 30-40 bilion worth in active ships.

why the heck should the right Corner ship get an Advantage over the other one?
the second Pilot is fielding much much more isk and risk.

but go on. make supers and carriers useless cause some idiot frig pilots are mad at getting killed by fighters.

if you are risking more isk, you should have the Advantage. simple as that.

dont nerf assist of fighters
and dont nerf fighter and bomber warps.

if both happens, no one will use supers or carriers again, and you can just delete them of the game instead of nerfing them.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2015-02-27 15:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Krell Kroenen wrote:
So a unique and interesting feature that’s been around for numerous years is being removed because of an undesirable side effect that has reared its head more often of late due to changes that came in Phoebe. So instead of correcting the side affect you are just going to axe the whole feature.

That’s like having a blemish on your hand and chopping off the whole hand to get rid of it.

*Golf clap* I guess we should be happy you guys are in game design and are not doctors, why not put forth some effort and prevent the undesirable behavior directly instead of taking easy sloppy way out?



Patient: "Hey doc, I was walking around outside barefooted and scraped the side of my big toe, it's not that bad, but do you have a bandaid?"

CCP Doctor Rise: "In my opinion we'll have to amputate both legs, your left arm and remove half your ribcage. That should prevent any chance of infection".

Patient: "WTF? Can I get a second opinion?"

CCP Doctor Fozzie "Better take the other arm, just to be sure".
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#123 - 2015-02-27 15:42:06 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
So a unique and interesting feature that’s been around for numerous years is being removed because of an undesirable side effect that has reared its head more often of late due to changes that came in Phoebe. So instead of correcting the side affect you are just going to axe the whole feature.

That’s like having a blemish on your hand and chopping off the whole hand to get rid of it.

*Golf clap* I guess we should be happy you guys are in game design and are not doctors, why not put forth some effort and prevent the undesirable behavior directly instead of taking easy sloppy way out?


What do you suggest then? Fighter Assist was almost a completely unused 'joke' feature before the fighters got the buffed up stats. The feature is laden with terrible bugs which have been in the game for years, it would probably take considerable work and effort to clean up the numerous bugs in the fighter code (which probably hasn't been touched since 2006 when Carriers were introduced, and older features in eve have a history of being poorly documented) to have them at a state where they are balanced (I.e. Fighters don't have any stats from assigning Carriers), it would probably take a programming/QA team considerable to fix, and then at which point, no-one will use them again like before and a team would have spend considerable development time 'balancing' a feature which is then going to go to back to seeing non-existent use. It's much easier for the Design team to simply remove the feature.

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Vena Saris
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2015-02-27 15:44:01 UTC
leave the warpy fighter part in.
Gyges Skyeye
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#125 - 2015-02-27 15:44:30 UTC
Fighter assist should die. That said, lets consider the other mechanic up for change.

Fighter warping; The first time I experienced this mechanic it surprised the heck out of me to see things following me in a warp tunnel. It was an 'oh ****' moment and it was kind of fun. Fighter warping is a very cool gameplay mechanic. However I would contend that fighter warping is not really relevant to the core identity or function of fighters. Fighter bombers and fighters are about hitting large, stationary to slow moving objects that have already been tied down in place on grid. When you reach into your bag of weapons systems for a fighter or a fighter bomber, the assumption is that you are not fighting small nimble things. Fighter warping is a mechanic for hunting down an escaped kill. Hunting down a small fast escapee is not at all core to the fighter's mission of blowing fools up who are stuck in the mud on your grid.

I think that fighter warping should be removed and fighters strengthened in their core identity as a capital to battleship targeted weapon system. I would then love to see a new capital class warping drones drawn up that is targeted at harassing and hunting down fleeing enemies. These hunter drones could be balanced around providing effective dps against cruiser/battlecruiser to frigate sized vessels. You could balance and tune these drones to be scrammable, bubbleable, ect without having to worry about regular fighter drones having excess power against an infinitely broad range of targets.

tl;dr drone warping's a cool mechanic but do it on a new set of drones instead.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2015-02-27 15:44:40 UTC
Charadrass wrote:


if both happens, no one will use supers or carriers again, and you can just delete them of the game instead of nerfing them.


Like people were supposed to stop using capitals with the jump range limitation and the jump fatigue. I'm totally waiting for that to happen...
Atan Auden
Hemus
Brave Collective
#127 - 2015-02-27 15:45:31 UTC
Stop killing the Capitals and breaking the game of the capital pilots.

im AGAINST THOSE CHANGES they will ruin the Carrier gameplay.


!
Lunarstorm95
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2015-02-27 15:45:54 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Opner Dresden wrote:
So fighter assist is a problem of design... don't post any data, because you don't have any data to support it.

But battleship and Battlecruiser usage is only a stats question... nothing is wrong with the fact that absolutely no one is fielding anything larger than a cruiser hull as a primary doctrine for major combat outside of PL... and even then it's only for <5 jump TFIs and destroyer warp speed Machariels.

Can we get some consistency please? If skynetting is a serious problem and not just people annoyed with home systems having some defensive advantage against roaming gangs... show us the numbers.

Better solution, fighters can be scramed and generate killmails... and bubbles while you're at it.



Carriers just received a massive nerf in jump range, severely limiting one of the major perks of owning one (suitcase). Now the uses for ratting and home defense are being crippled (at least in any sort of busy space).


The advantage that home defense has is the option to reship and counter, more pilots on hand, and the ability to reinforce lost numbers during an engagement, as well as strategic assets like Jump Bridges to cut-off enemy escape routes or bring their own reinforcements in faster, and much better options for a safe retreat like safe stations and friendly structures.

Assigning 4,000 DPS from an invulnerable and intangible target that tracks every single ship in the game perfectly to 2 Stilettos and a Hyena (or t1 fit frigates) is not something which should be in the game.



Wrong.

Fighters assigned to a ship will not achieve 4k dps. Only 5 fighters can be assigned and endless it is being done by a max dps thanny you only getting like 600 DPS. Also carriers get aggro form their drone aggression. Bump em off station. Bump em of shields. Drive by doomsday him. This stuff happens all the time. Just because you haven't thought about doesn't mean their is no solution.

Or better yet stop expecting you 200 man alliance to be a formidable force to a 3k man alliance with sov. Pick on target you can compete with.

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.” ― Robert A. Heinlein "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." ― Confucius 

Charadrass
Angry Germans
#129 - 2015-02-27 15:46:39 UTC
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship where you assist 5 of them.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX
Doomheim
#130 - 2015-02-27 15:46:47 UTC
Atan Auden wrote:
Stop killing the Capitals and breaking the game of the capital pilots.

im AGAINST THOSE CHANGES they will ruin the Carrier gameplay.


!


Oh god please don't let them take away my 40m from a POS Forcefield Gameplay!!
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2015-02-27 15:48:05 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
How about keeping their ability to warp but making them pointable?


+1

I want my fighters to keep warp ability.
Traiori
Going Critical
#132 - 2015-02-27 15:49:15 UTC
Make fighter warp a toggleable option (if it isn't already - I haven't flown a DPS carrier in a long time) in drone options. This stops them leaving when you don't want them to, but maintains their individuality.

"Fighter Warp: Y/N"
Agent Unknown
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#133 - 2015-02-27 15:51:13 UTC
Traiori wrote:
Make fighter warp a toggleable option (if it isn't already - I haven't flown a DPS carrier in a long time) in drone options. This stops them leaving when you don't want them to, but maintains their individuality.

"Fighter Warp: Y/N"


There's a "Attack and Follow" tickbox. This would eliminate the issue CCP brought up with fighters chasing people who warp away while allowing it to be the choice of the pilot.

They'll still follow you when you warp regardless of the setting.

RIP CCP nerfbatting capitals a month after I invested in one.
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX
Doomheim
#134 - 2015-02-27 15:53:08 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced
gto Okaski
Crown Solutions
TOGETHER WE STAND
#135 - 2015-02-27 15:53:37 UTC
nerf capitals
nerf T3s
nerf HACs

Every time the gamers enjoy and use a ship more than another, you take action.
Why do you have such diversity of ships if you do not let one have an advantage in certain field over another ?
You might just as well offer the same ship with different names.
Don't Panic
Utopian Research I.E.L.
#136 - 2015-02-27 15:53:47 UTC
well i guess here speaks mostly people who don't have supers, so let me say few words.

about RISK

firstly, a super carrier who is on edge on POS with delegated fighters risks the same as all other ships involved into pvp.
well managed attack and in 3 seconds from super carrier is only a wreck. and various other situations like disconnection with aggression and other sandbox. ( i saw bluemelon was talking in this topic, he can confirm my words as being well experience player in tactical warfare )

about DPS from delegated fighters

with huge risk comes huge dps, good balance. you risk not a stupid rupture who-nobody-cares, you risk 30 bil ship. one mistake and shame on you for entire pilot's carrier. having in mind you can get that shame in 3 seconds, i think dps could be even bigger.

about FIGHTING STRONG

delegating fighters is a nice warfare strategy, which made possible to engage bigger fleet entities having less pilots. td;r you can engage and create pvp situations against much bigger hostile fleets. it's always fun to fight more, right? or should pilots ALWAYS run when incoming 2 x or 3 x more hostiles?

about BALANCE

pretty much super capital pilots faces that ship class downgrading for long time, really not much love from developers. nerfed that, nerfed this, removed that, removed this. now removing fighter assist? taking one thing you need add other, this is how balance works. when you remove something its not balance. IT'S NOT BALANCE. am even not sure what you need to add to super carrier to balance removed assisting? must be some magic right now, some new capital modules or ship specifications...

look if i buy new car and engine not starts ( like now with super carrier, got it for delegating fighters ) i will get fixed for free.
so if ccp rise removes assisting, gonna he buy super carrier from me? nwm.

Please respect all players in this game, small entities and bigger entities, don't shutdown a variety of warfare and ways of the gameplay.



Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2015-02-27 15:54:31 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship where you assist 5 of them.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


It's 2k dps added to any ships. Crow with 2k dps? Sure why not right.
Stu Pendisdick
#138 - 2015-02-27 15:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Stu Pendisdick
Seems simple to me, do not allow assignment of Drones/Fighters/Fighter Bombers unless the assigning vessel is (X) kilometers away from a POS or Station.

Let them continue to add all the damage they want to distant battles within the system, simply remove mommy's apron that they currently hide behind.

(edited for spelling and addition of Drones)
Kreea
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2015-02-27 15:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kreea
Dear CCP, I'm quite disappointed with your latest nerfs and rebalances. Why don't you concentrate more on inventing something new in game instead of nerfing or boosting the same things in the game every year. Otherwise, with such a "job" I guess you're trying to justify the money of your investors???Ugh
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#140 - 2015-02-27 15:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Maxwell
An old, interesting, and cool mechanic is being removed because of people whining about it.

You talk about making it better for the small guys and nerfing the power of the big corps, but this is counter-productive. This effectively removes fighters as a mechanic from lowsec outside of large engagements. Sure, deploy a carrier and start shooting a pos or a poco. See how long it takes you until there's 20+ dreadnaughts, carriers, supercarriers and titans on field killing you.

Risk vs reward? You're making it so it's either join a big alliance to have a chance of using your carrier, or just don't undock it. So much for helping the small guy.

I started training for carriers, but I'm thinking I should just stop now. Might as well train for something I'm gonna use more than once a year, yeah?

Edit: Here's the thing. All those small gang idiots complaining about this, they have a choice to make:

Either keep trying to fight a superrior force in X system
-or-
Leave system and look for another fight


It's just like a fleet fielding T2 logi vs a fleet not using logi. You're not gonna break them, cause the enemy fleet has reps that you just can't break.

What makes carriers and assigned fighters different from deploying things like that, is that a fleet with deployed fighters isn't going to follow you to another system. Fightes can't enter plexes except larges.

This nerf is not thought out and hurts aspects of the game more than it helps.