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[Scylla] Skynet - Removing Fighter Assist

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Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2015-02-27 15:56:25 UTC
Agent Unknown wrote:
Traiori wrote:
Make fighter warp a toggleable option (if it isn't already - I haven't flown a DPS carrier in a long time) in drone options. This stops them leaving when you don't want them to, but maintains their individuality.

"Fighter Warp: Y/N"


There's a "Attack and Follow" tickbox. This would eliminate the issue CCP brought up with fighters chasing people who warp away while allowing it to be the choice of the pilot.

They'll still follow you when you warp regardless of the setting.

RIP CCP nerfbatting capitals a month after I invested in one.


Never trust CCP to do the non literal version of what they said. If they said "remove fighter warping", assume until they say otherwise that the blind nerfbat will crush all applications of fighter warping, including returning to the carrier and following carrier in warp.

Best to make absolutely sure they know peoples opinions and to try and pin them down on EXACTLY what their proposal on the topic is.

Again, Remove assist, keep drone warping, even if it's just drones following the carrier in warp.
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#142 - 2015-02-27 15:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Gilbaron wrote:
can't you disallow fighter assist from within 50km of a tower instead ? that's gonna produce some lovely killmails

removing fighter warp is completely unnessecarry



I endorse this product and/or service. Allow assist, to battlecruiser or higher (I don't necessarily agree with Cruisers), but yes, cannot be within 50kms of an anchored structure (pos, station etc).

Assist is a viable mechanic. I don't like frigates being able to control them, but meeting halfway with battlecruisers is a goocdcompromise.

Allow subcapital combat to be assisted by supers, but mitigate the battle space by changing the mechanic.

Stop swinging the goddamn nerf bat so hard.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
Neyko Turama
Nomadic Vanguards
#143 - 2015-02-27 15:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Pomponius Sabinus wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


This change being largely driven by 'skynetting' which is a tactic where carriers and super carriers can sit in near perfect safety at the edge of starbase shields and assign thousands of DPS worth of fighter drones to their fleet mates who can fly whatever ship they want *), while wielding an enormous amount of damage. We feel this is not meeting our standards for risk vs reward and therefor would like to remove the ability to assist fighters. More details are covered in this dev blog.

*) *snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal.



Well it seems like you realised the problem is risk vs reward while asigning fighters from the edge of a POS FF. But instead of making it more interesting by finding some way to make it more dangerous to asign fighters you sadly take the easy way out and just remove it. It would be way more interesting for the game if you found a way to make carriers that asigned fighters more vulnerable.
The best way to adress this Problem would be to not allow asigning fighters within a certain distance to a POS. This will create a lot of interesting encounters / fights over carier/super carriers that are caught while they asigned fighters.

Concerning fighter warp there is no problem with that. People that don't want it can hit the don't follow button and all is fine.


First of all this.
and then maybe what about:

-Fighters can only be assisted if the carrying vessel is minimum +50km (or even 100km) of any station or structure

OR:

-Fighters can only be assisted if the carrying vessel is within a certain Range of a maybe called "Mobile Drone Link Enforcer" Module (Mobile Depot-like).

Pls CCP, be creative and don´t **** this up.
Draco Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2015-02-27 15:57:48 UTC
I like the ideas of only being able to assign fighters if your a certain distance away from a POS and also make it so you can only assign fighters to Cruisers or Battlecruisers and higher.

The idea of taking away fighter assist is absurd at best... if you decide to do this will it come with giving people back the money spent on isk to purchase these Supers? Its starting to feel like CCP is just trying to take away as much ability for people to rat enough to purchase in game isk and forcing users to pay for their accounts.

There is a reason why supers are so expensive... you already nurfed fighters enough already. Setting rules for when fighters can be assigned is fine but anything beyond that is complete garbage!
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#145 - 2015-02-27 15:58:00 UTC
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced


ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right?
you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier.

you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#146 - 2015-02-27 15:59:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship where you assist 5 of them.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


It's 2k dps added to any ships. Crow with 2k dps? Sure why not right.



why not? the crow still dies at the same Speed as before.
or do the fighters provide the crow some sort of strange defense buff?

by the time the crow bites the dust, the fighters are doing nothing.
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#147 - 2015-02-27 15:59:44 UTC
Don't stop at fighters. Remove drone assist also. The assist mechanic is what is causing issues across many platforms. Hint Ishtars not having to be in targeting range just drone range control range.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#148 - 2015-02-27 16:00:24 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:


Fighters assigned to a ship will not achieve 4k dps. Only 5 fighters can be assigned and endless it is being done by a max dps thanny you only getting like 600 DPS. Also carriers get aggro form their drone aggression. Bump em off station. Bump em of shields. Drive by doomsday him. This stuff happens all the time. Just because you haven't thought about doesn't mean their is no solution.

Or better yet stop expecting you 200 man alliance to be a formidable force to a 3k man alliance with sov. Pick on target you can compete with.


A Thanatos with only 5 Fighters assigns 1.1k DPS to a single ship.
With 14 Fighters assuming reasonable skills (i.e. can only run 4 DCUs) a Skynet Thanatos can assign 3000 DPS+ over 3 ships. It is not 600 DPS, 600 DPS would be from a completely unfitted Thanatos. This is from an entirely T2 Fit Thanatos.

A Nyx can assign over 6000 DPS with the same configuration.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#149 - 2015-02-27 16:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
As I said in another thread, what really sucks is that nerfs like this limit creativity (while rewarding the uncreative for being...uncreative).

I've used fighter delgation to combat cloaky campers. I fit out a tanked T1 hauler and assigned fighters to it and kept right on ratting, daring the camper to hot drop me and my 9 mil isk worth of ship. This rather than running to the forums screaming "CCP, someone is cloaked in my upgraded system, DO SOMETHING!". Without fighter delegation, that's over with.

Oh, it's not the end of screwing around with afk cloaky camper's heads (my FoF missile+sentries warp core stabbed ECM busrting MJD Typhoons and Armageddons laugh at your false hot drop threat Mr. Cloaky Camper), but it is yet another nail in the coffin of creativity in this game.
Jack Leo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2015-02-27 16:04:12 UTC
You said you wanted to increase risk...Instead of removing the game play option completely would it make sense to have some type of inability to enter POS when fighters are deployed / assisting -

Another option would be to have limiting siege/triage like timer when deploying fighters - requiring a cool down period after fighters are in drone bay -

This keeps game play intact but adds an element of risk. While abandoning fighters might be a last resort when in danger it' would be an expensive option.

Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#151 - 2015-02-27 16:04:25 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced


ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right?
you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier.

you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...


If you have no idea how skynet works then you probably shouldn't post here. The Carrier is 40m outside a friendly POS, with a heated MWD and agility rigs and can get back into a friendly POS in under 1 second. The Einherjis are assisted to the interceptors from this position. For all intents and purposes it is completely invulnerable. A t2 Fit Thanatos costs around 2b including fighters, but it is an almost invulernable asset. The tangible assets you will lose are the Stilettos in this example on the grid, and probably rarely the fighters if the Stilettos aren't paying attention, and the Vindicator. The assisting Carrier in a proper configuration is at almost no risk what so ever.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#152 - 2015-02-27 16:04:28 UTC
suddenly i feel like seeing the neighbours Boy sitting in the sandbox calling mommy and blaming the 5 year older kid for destroying his plan to world dominance.

just like, if i can't kill it quick enough, iam gonna run to mommccp and make them disappear through another way.

grow balls. seriously.
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#153 - 2015-02-27 16:05:45 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I've yet to see an actual argument to keeping fighters going to warp besides "please don't nerf they cost me money".

I hate being harsh but I haven't read one yet


Don't forget that fighters and fighter bombers are piloted by a crew. They are frigate sized non-drones. If they hope to make Valkyrie a viable part of the Eve Universe, then do not take away the warping ability.

Fighters and Bombers are not dumb drones. They have pilots, and should be able to warp to their mothership if it has to escape the battlespace.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#154 - 2015-02-27 16:06:13 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Removing fighter assign is good. Removing fighter warp is bad.

I can't follow a target warping to a safespot in my combat ship, so fighters being able to follow targets continuously is odd.

But I can always warp to a member of my fleet in the same system, and I can fleet warp, so at a minimum, fighters should always be able to warp TO the carriers location when the carrier, and warp WITH the carrier when the carrier warps.

But feel free to remove the follow aggressed target function, it wouldn't be much of a loss.


Dear Anhenka,
This is what I like about you so much! You always find the right words at the right place to put them in Smile

Agreed.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Warran Simalia
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2015-02-27 16:07:03 UTC
I support the removal of fighter assignment, but I am opposed to fighters not warping with the carrier when it warps off. I believe that this is something unique to the carrier and to fighters and that it should stay put.

Otherwise, fighters are just big and powerful drones. Keep the warp drive on them and make them unique.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#156 - 2015-02-27 16:07:19 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced


ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right?
you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier.

you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...


If you have no idea how skynet works then you probably shouldn't post here. The Carrier is 40m outside a friendly POS, with a heated MWD and agility rigs and can get back into a friendly POS in under 1 second. The Einherjis are assisted to the interceptors from this position. For all intents and purposes it is completely invulnerable. A t2 Fit Thanatos costs around 2b including fighters, but it is an almost invulernable asset. The tangible assets you will lose are the Stilettos in this example on the grid, and probably rarely the fighters if the Stilettos aren't paying attention, and the Vindicator. The assisting Carrier in a proper configuration is at almost no risk what so ever.


Now expalin to us all how well that works when the fighters don't get bonuses from the carrier/mods/carrier pilot?

Which is the entire point. CCP made some not so smart buffs to fighters, that went haywire and the 'fix' is to remove the mechanic that was around before the problem but not the actual things that caused the problem?

That doesn't make any damn sense.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#157 - 2015-02-27 16:07:35 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
xXCha0sDrag0nXx2001xX wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
guys. you can assist 5 fighters.
not the whole bunch a carrier or super can Launch.

thats a 2k dps per ship.
a good fitted vindicator with drones can get that too.
gonna nerf vindicators right?


at risk of stating the obvious

A decent fit Vindicator goes around 1km/s, and costs 700m to lose with rigs/t2 fitting/faction web. It has problems applying damage past 20km. It is vulnerable to tracking disruption/energy warfare, it can be damped, jammed, it can be scrammed/webbed (albiet to the extreme risk of the ship doing that if the Vindicator is not controlled), it can be pointed and killed outside it's web range quite easily by most cruisers in the game if it's unsupported.

2 Stilettos with assisted Einherjis cost 60m to lose (The Einherjis cost 300m but they are incredibly unlikely to die because even scrammed einherjis will instantly disappear if they Stilletto relegates control of them back to the carrier) Einherjis go 6km/s, and the Stilettos do 5km/s, The Einherjis will track frigates perfectly without issue, and can track every single frigate in the game, even linked, unless they have HG snakes.

If you lose the 2 Stilettos which have a much more effective weapon system you lose 60m
If you lose your vindicator after insurance it costs 500m+

Guess which one is balanced


ah. and the assisted Einherjis spawn just in space and wait to get assisted right?
you forgot in your calculation the carrier OR supercarrier.

you just have to scan him down. bump him away from the pos and kill it. mister iamlookingforaneasykillandgothumiliated...


If you have no idea how skynet works then you probably shouldn't post here. The Carrier is 40m outside a friendly POS, with a heated MWD and agility rigs and can get back into a friendly POS in under 1 second. The Einherjis are assisted to the interceptors from this position. For all intents and purposes it is completely invulnerable. A t2 Fit Thanatos costs around 2b including fighters, but it is an almost invulernable asset. The tangible assets you will lose are the Stilettos in this example on the grid, and probably rarely the fighters if the Stilettos aren't paying attention, and the Vindicator. The assisting Carrier in a proper configuration is at almost no risk what so ever.


so youre telling me, that the thanny Pilot is sitting there, watching the sun all the time and is 100% Aware ?
go try telling your Kids that there is santa.

an afk ship sitting afk is sitting afk. you probably look over it every 3-4 minutes, but you wont Monitor it all the time. even when it is sitting next to a pos.

ive done enough drive bys where my machariel bumped a stupid carrier away from the pos and your fleet can kill it then.
Shorty alt1
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2015-02-27 16:07:36 UTC
I would prefer seeing some sort of module created for both carriers and sub capitals that would allow fighter assignment.
This module or even a related skill would extend the range at which the fighters could follow.

This would pull carriers out of the POS bubbles putting them at risk but at the same time still allows them to be off-grid.
It would be less of a hit to the PvE'rs

Also would add some diversity to fleet engagements as probers can find the carriers within X range of the fighters.

I would limit the module for sub-caps to be only on battleships or t3s. This would stop the problem of interceptors running around with 10k dps, but still allows the fighters to go pew pew.

The module might also limit the # of drones assigned.
Also the assigned drones could use the drone skills of the assigned pilot.
gto Okaski
Crown Solutions
TOGETHER WE STAND
#159 - 2015-02-27 16:08:07 UTC
Kreea wrote:
Dear CCP, I'm quite disappointed with your latest nerfs and rebalaces. Why don't you concentrate more on inventing something new in game instead of nerfing or boosting the same things in the game every year. Otherwise, with such a "job" I guess you're trying to justify the money of your investors???Ugh


Right. I mean, how many fleets were lost against assigned fighters ?
A fighter is a 30mil drone which is pretty easy to lose in a battle. 5 fighters means 150 mil isk, almost a par with a HAC but with a lot less features. Isn't that risk enough ?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#160 - 2015-02-27 16:08:36 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
suddenly i feel like seeing the neighbours Boy sitting in the sandbox calling mommy and blaming the 5 year older kid for destroying his plan to world dominance.

just like, if i can't kill it quick enough, iam gonna run to mommccp and make them disappear through another way.

grow balls. seriously.


Seriously, you just described about half of all Features and Ideas posts lol.