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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Xan Luca
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#421 - 2014-12-18 20:10:55 UTC
These are some nice changes. About time combat recons got some good bonus's.

Pretty please can we get more low slots so we can armor tank our Lachesis's?
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#422 - 2014-12-18 20:11:36 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Your spotters see that 50 of them are Ishtars/Tengus/Whatever FOTM + Logi, the other 50 are unaccounted for. Therefore, they could be any of four shiptypes with HAC tanks, dangerous EWAR and the damage potential of at least an AF.


Or it could be a fleet of 50 cloaky Proteus/Stratios each with over 500dps and a massive tank that have bridged in..... Oh wait that can happen now.
Zenmaster Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
#423 - 2014-12-18 20:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenmaster Aihaken
If I'm not able to use my skills to track down a ship in my system, and then just - out of the blue - start losing ships, I will stop playing EvE and start playing something else that makes more sense, like say Elite or whatever.

I could of course just get a Combat Recon myself and profit, but... Wth is the challenge in that?
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#424 - 2014-12-18 20:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Zenmaster Aihaken wrote:
If I'm not able to use my skills to track down a ship in my system, and then just - out of the blue - start losing ships, I will stop playing EvE and start playing something else that makes more sense, like say Elite or whatever.


Erm, this patch doesn't change anything then, cloakies already have this ability. Combat recons can be scanned with probes.*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Benito Arias
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#425 - 2014-12-18 20:17:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

  • Please don't.
    What it does is actually blending their role with that of Force Recons, because in the landscape of grids, deadspace and bubbles ambushing ability skyrockets. Tank and mobility is what Combat Recons need. You want to fix this, great. After that, the Role bonus might compliment the established, uh, role some more, with MWD bloom reduction, or warp mobility, or something, just not out of the blue immunity to X.
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #426 - 2014-12-18 20:17:25 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    It's also pretty amusing that people still decry ECM as overpowered, when it's been consistently shat upon over the last four years. To put it into finer perspective — Goonswarm Federation, an organization for whom the use of cheap, T1 disruption cruisers is signature, abandoned ECM entirely in favor of sensor dampening and tracking disruption. This ought to tell you how unreliable jamming is in the current meta.

    That's because ECM in a small gang/solo environment is extremely over powered, but is insignificant in large scale combat. Damps are the reverse. Do you understand now?
    MicroNova
    Adhocracy Incorporated
    Adhocracy
    #427 - 2014-12-18 20:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MicroNova
    A point of clarification for some:
    Combat Recons are the Curse, Lachesis, Huginn, and Rook. They cannot cloak. The d-scan immunity would only apply to these ships.
    Force Recons are the Pilgrim, Arazu, Rapier, and Falcon. They can cloak. The d-scan immunity would NOT apply to these ships.

    The d-scan immunity for the Combat Recons gives them just the little bump that they need to make them really useful.
    As noted by others, you cannot d-scan cloaked ships anyway, so the advantage this change brings is that it lets you get on grid with a COMBAT Recon before they know to run. You'll still have the lock delays due to signature resolution, grid loading, warp ending, fat fingers, etc... It's not the apocalyptic change that people fear.

    Really appreciate the defensive boosts to all the Recons. Would like to see the Force Recons get a scanning bonus.

    The Pilgrim changing to a cloaky Curse jr is kind of meh, preferred the old bonusii, it's always been a solo ship that wins or loses based on target selection and committing to the objective.

    Looking forward to Proteus.
    Levina Windstar
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #428 - 2014-12-18 20:17:55 UTC
    Zenmaster Aihaken wrote:
    If I'm not able to use my skills to track down a ship in my system, and then just - out of the blue - start losing ships, I will stop playing EvE and start playing something else that makes more sense, like say Elite or whatever.


    Pretty much this

    "I can make billions using my mouth ...

    ... and sometimes when I talk, too" --- Solecist Project

    Pike Chargrim
    Carebear Empire
    #429 - 2014-12-18 20:19:32 UTC
    I don't like the d-scan immunity idea. Recons were already in a good place in terms of the meta (give or take a few ship tweaks here and there). What's the point of adding it here?

    I think this bonus would be great on a new T2 destroyer hull. Something with the hunting aspects of a SB, but a little bit more punch and tank. It gets permanent d-scan immunity, can use covert portals, but cannot fit a cloak. Or alternatively, this seems like a good fit for blops...

    This just doesn't seem right for a recon.

    Nova' Darkstar
    Doomheim
    #430 - 2014-12-18 20:20:14 UTC
    Edward Olmops wrote:

    Why is this OP?
    Where is this better than a regular cloak? (aside of the invisible Gas Harvester)


    I assume by "regular cloak" you mean cov ops cloak? Here are some examples of when this d-scan immunity would be better:

    When you are in a cov-ops ship, someone checking d-scan can still see you and the type of ship you are in:
    -In any medium FW plex
    -when you undock,
    -when you drop gate cloak to activate regular cloak
    -when you uncloak to launch probes
    -when you uncloak to enter/exit wormholes
    -when you are uncloaked inside of a POS in WH space
    -when you uncloak to fight something not on grid of person checking d-scan (if this change goes into the game all they will see is your victims ship, then your victims wreck+pod on dscan)

    Those are just some I can think of off the top of my head.
    Turanga L
    Interstellar H00kers
    #431 - 2014-12-18 20:21:17 UTC
    > Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

    Didn't read whole topic. But what about to change DScan more like combat probes: it shows names and only 'ship' / 'drone' / ... whatever for objects that not in grid and exact type only for ships in grid with your ship.

    Hardcore enought but not so overkill like complete immune to DScan. It's too much i would say...
    Discomanco
    We pooped on your lawn
    #432 - 2014-12-18 20:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
    Levina Windstar wrote:
    Discomanco wrote:
    Levina Windstar wrote:
    Discomanco wrote:
    MukkBarovian wrote:
    This is ridiculous.

    - "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
    Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.

    -"Wormholes are unlivable."
    What? Wormholes have all kinds of cloaky things in them all the time. Between the cloaky T3s, the Covops, the Recons and the Stratios its pretty dumb to just wander around without being cloaky. A bomber can target and point you instantly after decloak. A Huginn will have to land on grid decloaked and burn over to you uncloaked. (You're an idiot if you sit within point range of the warp in.) Sure the Huginn is tankier than a single bomber, but its not outright superior as a tackler.

    *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
    There are so many things that already don't show up in WH directional scan that I just don't get why combat recons are some kind of serious problem. Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak? How about the upside that you can at least find out about them with probes?

    -"Dscan tools are broken!"
    No they aren't. The cloaky falcon also didn't show up on the Dscan of the enemy fleet.

    -"10 arty Huginn..."
    Sure the hidden arty Huginn got a slight buff. But 9 arty Rapiers and an instalock bomber can currently create the same effect. You don't see them on scan. They can point you instantly. They blap anemically for the number of ships involved. Somehow I don't regularly worry about cloaky arty Rapier fleets right now.

    Pretty much well said.
    I have never seen any concern about wormhole due to the huge amount of cloaked danger there's already out there, so people just whine to whine right now.

    I can understand the concern for FW though, but I guess you just have to prepare for the worst.



    It's nice to see so many comments regarding WH coming from ppl who actually doesn't live there and have no clue of what they are talking about Shocked.

    Anyway, it's your opinion so it's fine, and mine is I think a ship that is immune to D-Scane is too OP in WH. Hell, I'll be the first one to use it but I still think this is too OP and need at least some balance and/or huge drawback.

    I have lived in WHs, granted it was not for long but I lived there.
    Everything I saw coming in to kill me was cloaky. Everything. What would the Combat Recons change? Those I can actually see landing on grid and have a chance to get out before I get tackled.


    They are cruiser type ship with insanely fast warp speed. Believe me when I'm telling you that when you see it comig on grid, you wont' have time to warp away unless your in a frig.

    Then I suppose we shouldn't sit within 30km from the warp in spot?
    While Cynabals (and a few others) are fast as hell, sure they can seen on DScan. Combat Recons are not fast, and you should have proper tile to warp out, unless you're in a battleship (you wouldn't have time to run from a cloaky anyways).
    I still see nothing changed in terms of wormholes
    Zomgnomnom
    Contra Ratio
    GameTheory
    #433 - 2014-12-18 20:23:22 UTC
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    That enormous, world-shattering THUMP you just heard was the ball being dropped big-time on the Pilgrim rebalance. Why take away the one thing it was actually good at to give it something that it desperately doesn't need? Ashs and neut Legions already vastly, wildly overshadow Pilgrims in small-gang armor fleets. This range change isn't going to do a thing about that... while taking away its one solid weapon when used in ultra-small gang and solo ratter ganking. What good is a range bonus gonna do for a cloaky ship?

    I'm incredibly sad the Rook didn't get a RLML bonus to go with its HML/HAM bonus. This sounds OP but it really isn't: a RLML Rook isn't even close to a good option right now, giving only 130 DPS (and long reload time) versus 190 (and much better alpha) for the HML version. So add this bonus, please. That would make it a viable take-along on small-gang RLML Caracal/Cerb fleets.

    I'm also incredibly sad and confused that the Huginn/Rapier weapon bonuses have been flip-flopped. TP-bonused missiles were the only thing that made the Huginn interesting. This profile should have been improved, not eliminated. What was the justification for doing this, if you don't mind my asking?

    I'm torn on the invisible-to-dscan thing. It feels OP, particularly in w-space. It also makes me nervous because you guys don't have a good strategy around "What intelligence tools should there be in EVE?" So you probably shouldn't be screwing around with the intel tools we do have until you know what the strategy is going to be.


    So much all of these points, especially on the Pilgrim..... Complete swing and miss.
    Oddsodz
    Stay Frosty.
    A Band Apart.
    #434 - 2014-12-18 20:24:22 UTC
    Just where the hell are my drones on my Gallente ships? 4 lites drones is silly. Always has been. It's a Gallente ship. Give it a full flight for the love of cake.
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #435 - 2014-12-18 20:24:43 UTC
    D-scan immunity is an awesome idea! Please give it to my Stratios too.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

    Lugia3
    Lazerhawks
    L A Z E R H A W K S
    #436 - 2014-12-18 20:29:42 UTC
    Boltorano wrote:
    You've basically made scout alts mandatory for "solo" complex runners.

    Thanks so much. Ugh


    By "solo", do you mean warp stabbed farmers?

    "CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

    Tarek Raimo
    Eleutherian Guard
    #437 - 2014-12-18 20:29:44 UTC
    Mr Floydy wrote:
    Tarek Raimo wrote:
    Your spotters see that 50 of them are Ishtars/Tengus/Whatever FOTM + Logi, the other 50 are unaccounted for. Therefore, they could be any of four shiptypes with HAC tanks, dangerous EWAR and the damage potential of at least an AF.


    Or it could be a fleet of 50 cloaky Proteus/Stratios each with over 500dps and a massive tank that have bridged in..... Oh wait that can happen now.


    You could still spot those at the moment they bridge in and before they can activate their cloak.
    Also, who seriously bridges 50 cloaky T3s to a covert cyno anyway, let alone that I would like to see a cloaky Proteus fit that does 500+dps.
    Arrendis
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #438 - 2014-12-18 20:30:42 UTC
    RTSAvalanche wrote:
    Faction Warefare has been completely broken since Incarna, now you are telling me that recons with web, neut, damp & ECM bonuses will be able to hide in plain site in FW plexes and there is no conventional way to find them.

    Even if combats work to find them, we would have to do that for every plex...


    Scanner probes != Your Directional Scanner. Combat Scanner Probes are very much a 'conventional' way to find bad guys - especially ones that can't warp cloaked, and get hit with the full cloak delay if they're trying to ambush you cloaked. Meaning they won't be cloaked.

    Gotta say, I really like the idea.
    Kyle Yanowski
    Malevelon Roe Industries
    Convocation of Empyreans
    #439 - 2014-12-18 20:32:06 UTC
    Tarek Raimo wrote:
    Many people have (correctly) pointed out the problematic implications of D-Scan immunity for WH Space and Lowsec solo/small gang pvp, but that is not all of it.

    Imagine the following scenario in 0.0:

    Local spikes with 100 enemies. Your spotters see that 50 of them are Ishtars/Tengus/Whatever FOTM + Logi, the other 50 are unaccounted for. Therefore, they could be any of four shiptypes with HAC tanks, dangerous EWAR and the damage potential of at least an AF. Even if you have a specialized combat prober in your fleet, you wont be able to determine what they are if they keep warping around in system.

    Now take an educated guess what your FC will do.

    My money would be on either fleeing or docking up since they can't estimate the risk of the upcoming engagement.

    The net effect on nullsec fleet-fights will be negative, of that I am sure.


    Very feasible.

    Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.

    Shaleb Heworo
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #440 - 2014-12-18 20:33:29 UTC
    Great changes except for the d-scan invisibility of combat recon.

    D-scan is th one life saving compass of solo pvpers which are fundamentally arsed by OGB already. If you put D-scan invisible, instalocking 40km neuting, pointing, double webbing recons ON TOP of that you will just make pvp even harder for the great many players who don't like to run around in herds all the time. C'mon CCP, leave us at least d-Scan!