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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#381 - 2014-12-18 19:11:33 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
-I need to point this out since it keeps popping up in this thread like a demented gopher and needs to be put down:
The Huginn should not get missiles. Core Complexion ships in this game have missiles as part of their identity with the new balance meta, so Boundless Creation ships shouldn't be getting it at all in any instance. You want a TP bonus on a t2 missile cruiser? Tough sh*t! Caldari are the ones who need the bloody TP bonuses to compliment their missiles; minmatar just needs something else like web strength or extra combat usability. Web range is a bonus as effective if not more so in pvp since it is the literal definition of range control. They should have fixed this a LONG time ago but it's never once been addressed.

Hm. You raise a good point about the corporate tendencies. I p.much never think about that (frankly, because I think it adds very little to the game).

This does pretty efficiently neuter the Huginn, though. Rapier or Lach will be better for anything that I can think of off the top of my head. Am I missing a use case, perhaps in FW?

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.
Motorbit
Moira.
#382 - 2014-12-18 19:12:00 UTC
still to weak. need doomsdays, imo
Xqu
Inner Visions
#383 - 2014-12-18 19:13:50 UTC
Why are all the DED runners complaining about this change? Sure you will lose a few early warnings without being able to see them while they use the gates, but it's not like he will magically appear next to you.

You already know a neutral / hostile is in the system AND you know he can see wrecks just as well as you so hes likely looking for you.
Even if he warps into your site and suddenly appears on your overview are you a) a smart person and always aligned out, or b) far away from the warp in point. If you aren't either of these two things would you have warped to a safe spot the moment you saw the guy appear in local.

Also to the guys who thinks that they can magically disappear if they just find a way to make a ratting recon work then think again. People still know you're in local, they can see the wrecks on d-scan and they can see that more wrecks are spawning. It's not difficult to put 2 and 2 together once people get used to this new mechanic.

There is no stupid questions, just stupid answers
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#384 - 2014-12-18 19:14:06 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online.


Still better than Ishtars Online.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#385 - 2014-12-18 19:18:44 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
'hilarious and great fun' just means it's OP but you're flying it.

You're right, that was exactly where I was coming from. However having just read Dys Novus's post further up this page I don't really see this as too game breaking, maybe just in need of some tweaking.

As a few others have said, it doesn't really do much a cloaky Recon doesn't do already? Cloaky recons are getting a *HUGE* buff by getting HAC resists instead of their current ones and no-one seems overly bothered by that. Think that this new rebalanced Pilgrim is likely to be able to put of a 50k EHP tank without much issue, whilst being able to move into position and potentially bump tackle you so your aligned away from your warp out....

Yes a Curse will be able to sit decloaked waiting in a sig for you to warp to it unlike a Pilgrim, but it'll also be on dscan, it'll potentially be taking rat aggro.... I think it can work.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#386 - 2014-12-18 19:24:15 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online.


Still better than Ishtars Online.

Flavour Of This Month Online being better than Flavour Of Last Month Online still means we're living in Flavour Of the Month Online, which is not neccessarily healthy.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Gorski Car
#387 - 2014-12-18 19:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
MukkBarovian wrote:
This is ridiculous.

- "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.

-"Wormholes are unlivable."
What? Wormholes have all kinds of cloaky things in them all the time. Between the cloaky T3s, the Covops, the Recons and the Stratios its pretty dumb to just wander around without being cloaky. A bomber can target and point you instantly after decloak. A Huginn will have to land on grid decloaked and burn over to you uncloaked. (You're an idiot if you sit within point range of the warp in.) Sure the Huginn is tankier than a single bomber, but its not outright superior as a tackler.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
There are so many things that already don't show up in WH directional scan that I just don't get why combat recons are some kind of serious problem. Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak? How about the upside that you can at least find out about them with probes?

-"Dscan tools are broken!"
No they aren't. The cloaky falcon also didn't show up on the Dscan of the enemy fleet.

-"10 arty Huginn..."
Sure the hidden arty Huginn got a slight buff. But 9 arty Rapiers and an instalock bomber can currently create the same effect. You don't see them on scan. They can point you instantly. They blap anemically for the number of ships involved. Somehow I don't regularly worry about cloaky arty Rapier fleets right now.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Recons were weak compared to t3s, eafs and sometimes even t1 ewar ships.

Collect this post
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2014-12-18 19:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Looking at the Rook...... it's still really a bit of a turd. It doesn't have any real "Combat" feel to it.


It needs a substantial powergrid buff and just moar something..... maybe some pppssshhhhhhh
Clahim
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2014-12-18 19:28:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners.


    • wth Rise, you are clearly not Bringing Solo Back here...

    Very, very disapointed by that.

    Stupid Solo PvPer
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #390 - 2014-12-18 19:28:15 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    Looking at the Rook...... it's still really a bit of a turd. It doesn't have any real "Combat" feel to it.


    It needs a substantial powergrid buff and just moar something..... maybe some pppssshhhhhhh


    plus the camera is centered like a mile below the model since they changed it. totally disgusting.
    atanV
    Repo.
    #391 - 2014-12-18 19:28:51 UTC
    D-scan immunity seems hilariously OP. If you want to develop the Combat Recon role, how about increasing their d-scan range, and/or enabling them to detect the presence of cloaked ships (through the d-scan) instead?
    Clahim
    Tribal Liberation Force
    Minmatar Republic
    #392 - 2014-12-18 19:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Clahim
    Clahim wrote:

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners.


    • wth Rise, you are clearly not Bringing Solo Back here...

    Very, very disapointed by that, Fw and low sec soloers will suffer from that a lot.

    Stupid Solo PvPer
    Kyalla Ahashion
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #393 - 2014-12-18 19:31:17 UTC
    Vadeim Rizen wrote:
    this is so hilariously OP. inb4 recon nerf.

    ratters now can't even just keep an eye on d-scan and warp out before someone comes in to tackle.... nobody will be able to detect a covert ops cyno at all unless randomly using combat probes... tbh all they needed was a hitpoint and cap buff.

    can't wait to sit in a medium plex with an insta-lock arty rapier and blap unsuspecting frigs.


    It's the combat recons that are getting immunity to d-scan, the ones without covert cloaks and covertops cynos. Force recons could just stay cloaked to avoid dscan already.

    The dscan immunity that combat recons are getting will have some interesting uses (initial tackle? wormhole harassment?) but I don't see that it will change too much.

    I'd trade all the buffs for the ability to web and scram out to actual fleet battle engagement ranges of 140-150km with T2 web/scram though.
    Aiyshimin
    Shiva Furnace
    #394 - 2014-12-18 19:31:57 UTC
    MukkBarovian wrote:
    Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak?


    The difference is that you can see the Falcon on dscan when it enters the system, but you can't see the Rook. Previously no ship could enter a wormhole unnoticed.
    MukkBarovian
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #395 - 2014-12-18 19:33:24 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online.

    Nope. The Ishtars will eat the recons alive any time the two of them fight unless we're talking solo.

    Ishtar master race.
    TuCZnak
    Cyber Dong Industries
    #396 - 2014-12-18 19:33:27 UTC
    Is there still that monument in Jita? Because if the dscan thing goes live, we'll need something to shoot at.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #397 - 2014-12-18 19:35:33 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    Looking at the Rook...... it's still really a bit of a turd. It doesn't have any real "Combat" feel to it.


    It needs a substantial powergrid buff and just moar something..... maybe some pppssshhhhhhh


    more like this please

    ROOK

    Role Bonus:
    Cannot be detected by directional scanners

    Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
    5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
    5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher damage

    Recon Ships Bonuses:
    30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
    10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity

    Slot layout: 5H, 7M, 3L; 0(-2) turrets, 5 launchers
    Fittings: 600 PWG, 600 CPU reduce cpu plenty spare
    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2050(+262) / 965(+9) / 960(+359) maybe buff armour and structure a bit more
    Capacitor (amount / capacitor per second) : 1250(+187) / 3.93/s(+.83) buff cap more too compensate for ecm cap bonus loss
    Mobility (max velocity / agility / align time): 194(+24) / .61 / 10.76s(-.04s) buff agility please
    Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 100km( -50km) / 259 / 10
    Sensor strength: 32 Gravimetric
    Signature radius: 155(-18)

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    MukkBarovian
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #398 - 2014-12-18 19:40:08 UTC
    Actually I was wrong. Recons will be overpowered monsters capable of beating all comers. Sell your Ishtars and get arty Huginns. I promise you that will win all the fleet fights if you do this.
    Mr Ignitious
    Lifeline Industries
    #399 - 2014-12-18 19:40:27 UTC
    Grm Makentor wrote:
    >dscan immune ships with covops cloaks in w-space
    jesus christ what were they thinking, so mandatory scouting alts on every hole now?



    ... Only combat recons are getting dscan immunity, they can't use cov ops cloaks.

    Curse has too many slots, Huginn appears to have too few, and the lachesis... needs more suitable weapon bonuses but I don't have suggestions for it other than for it to go full missiles.

    Dscan immunity is a good thing. Right now people rat with impunity. There is no "risk vs reward" except for log in traps. Interceptors go god speed now and still can't even catch CARRIERS because of local and dscan. Anyone ratting just has to be aligned (and they will be) and warp out. Maybe, finally, carebears in null will incur losses. Or, better yet, people will escalate ganks and defend the farmers. Then everyone will have more fun.
    Aralieus
    Shadowbane Syndicate
    #400 - 2014-12-18 19:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralieus
    Love the changes

    Curse is going to be w-space beast now!

    Edit: On further reflection the Pilgrim is still a little lack-luster Straight

    Oderint Dum Metuant