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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#341 - 2014-12-18 18:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
Quote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners


I'd like to know more about the reason you chose this, of all things. You realize this is going to make them pretty overpowered in wormholes, right? You'll literally never see Combat Recons coming until they appear on grid.



I think that's kind of the point to them. You should be changing your underpants in a wh when a Curse or Falcon appears on grid...now that the Rook is actually usable, it actually has a purpose now, look out.

But then again, they still won't be as powerful as a cloaky t3. just short of.

BRAVO CCP. Now please please fix ECM.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#342 - 2014-12-18 18:29:34 UTC
The overall boosts to Recons I like - capacitor and tank were lacking. But the individual attention each ship got (or didn't get) is universally meh IMO.

I like the increased velocity, but the careless wording and typos in the post tends to indicate the care with which the whole balance appears to have been approached.

"The average maximum velocity across the class is going up by around 20m/s " - CCP Rise

PILGRIM
198(+34)

CURSE
205(+30)

FALCON
192(+23)

ROOK
194(+24)

ARAZU
207(+27)

LACHESIS
220(+29)

RAPIER
230(+38)

HUGINN
240(+31)

Real average: +29.5 - only off by 50% or so.

Just my 2 +/- 1 cents

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#343 - 2014-12-18 18:31:36 UTC
i would suggest reducing their targeting range down a bit .. its also odd that combat recons have about 30km more than their force recon variant... its getting hard too see where the differences in HAC resilience and recon resilience is.. seems better on recons by a fair way here...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#344 - 2014-12-18 18:31:47 UTC
then again,


Dscan is a tool just like overview fitting window etc.

what comes next overview invisibility?

I wont say you cant, but you shouldnt mess with ingame tools like that at least not in a way that gives you a disadvantage if you DONT fly a cartain ship thats what makes that thing broken you should get REASONABLE advantage for flying the ship not a HUGE disadvantage to everyone else because you flying it. next thing is a counter to that theres absolutly none.

The machanic is interesting but is already covered with cloaking and the deployable (who no one uses and it may perhaps hurt you guys so your giving it to propably worst choice of ships same was with bubble immunity for inties where giving it do interdictors would make far more sense)
Liuni Kalthis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2014-12-18 18:32:17 UTC
Well that'll be interesting, now have to worry about a Curse or Arazu in every single medium FW complex.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#346 - 2014-12-18 18:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Komodo Askold
I have to mark out that this doesn't mean Combat Recons can't be located with combat probes. Seems we'll have to get the habit of using them more often, especially on W-Space, but that doesn't mean "there will be no way to know a Combat Recon is coming".
CheesusCrust
Moira.
Villore Accords
#347 - 2014-12-18 18:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: CheesusCrust
So, let me try and keep this constructive.

CCP Rise wrote:

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners


  • This has some serious implications, not just for me as an fw pilot.

    With disallowing any type of cloaking in fac war plexes, we got a change that mainly reduced farming. A big +1. But with this change I could sit and run medium plexes all day without anyone ever knowing I was there. You'd only have local and (out of game) killboard information so you'd either have to manually check every open medium plex or constantly use combat probes.

    This requires a permanent scout infront of every medium plex you run solo or in small groups. It would be more powerful than the no longer viable cov ops in plexes, because you can't even detect them going through the gate and they don't have the cloak targeting delay.

    Of course this also means that a scout would be mandatory for every mission and site that has a gate (and doesn't need to be probed). You can usually protect yourself against cov ops by using the dscan frequently. Now you'll need a second account (either yours or a space friend) checking the front door. If alone, you'd have to expend a high slot and be constantly combat probing while running a site to have any kind of protection. Seems a bit overkill for me.

    Same goes for wormholes: An active dscaner can detect a cov ops pilot coming through a hole in scanrange.
    But wh space in generall is tricky, as it (rightfully so) is a dangerous place. Remember: without a gate that they have to pass through or local to rely on, cov ops can grab and kill you in any open space as it is right now.
    Using a combat recon to engage in open space would be less favourable to cov ops, as it lands visible on grid and cannot sneak up to a desired range. Increased point-range and no cloaking delay somewhat mitigate this though.

    Ewar bonuses and a good tank seem appropriate enough for the role of combat recon.
    And if you'd want to spice it up more, a dps range buff seems more logical in my opinion. (drone boats where appropriate, falloff/optimal, missile speed/flight time)

    EDIT: All that said, dscan immunity is far from being op. Under the right circumstances a cov ops pilot can ruin your day just as easily. I just really don't want you to be able to farm fw timers with them undetected.

    I also like the idea of increased dscan range. That would be a great role filler.

    o7
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #348 - 2014-12-18 18:34:46 UTC
    War Kitten wrote:
    The overall boosts to Recons I like - capacitor and tank were lacking. But the individual attention each ship got (or didn't get) is universally meh IMO.

    I like the increased velocity, but the careless wording and typos in the post tends to indicate the care with which the whole balance appears to have been approached.

    "The average maximum velocity across the class is going up by around 20m/s " - CCP Rise

    PILGRIM
    198(+34)

    CURSE
    205(+30)

    FALCON
    192(+23)

    ROOK
    194(+24)

    ARAZU
    207(+27)

    LACHESIS
    220(+29)

    RAPIER
    230(+38)

    HUGINN
    240(+31)

    Real average: +29.5 - only off by 50% or so.

    Just my 2 +/- 1 cents




    much more thoroughness is required .. something he has shown in all his threads sadly .. overbuffs and just neglect seems the theme of most threads..

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #349 - 2014-12-18 18:36:08 UTC
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    That enormous, world-shattering THUMP you just heard was the ball being dropped big-time on the Pilgrim rebalance. Why take away the one thing it was actually good at to give it something that it desperately doesn't need? Ashs and neut Legions already vastly, wildly overshadow Pilgrims in small-gang armor fleets. This range change isn't going to do a thing about that... while taking away its one solid weapon when used in ultra-small gang and solo ratter ganking. What good is a range bonus gonna do for a cloaky ship?

    I'm incredibly sad the Rook didn't get a RLML bonus to go with its HML/HAM bonus. This sounds OP but it really isn't: a RLML Rook isn't even close to a good option right now, giving only 130 DPS (and long reload time) versus 190 (and much better alpha) for the HML version. So add this bonus, please. That would make it a viable take-along on small-gang RLML Caracal/Cerb fleets.

    I'm also incredibly sad and confused that the Huginn/Rapier weapon bonuses have been flip-flopped. TP-bonused missiles were the only thing that made the Huginn interesting. This profile should have been improved, not eliminated. What was the justification for doing this, if you don't mind my asking?

    I'm torn on the invisible-to-dscan thing. It feels OP, particularly in w-space. It also makes me nervous because you guys don't have a good strategy around "What intelligence tools should there be in EVE?" So you probably shouldn't be screwing around with the intel tools we do have until you know what the strategy is going to be.

    -I agree with you on the pilgrim; it should either drop a mid for a high or lose the TP bonus for neut amount; it's being half-assed and nothing good will come of that. That being said, if we're forced to accept this, i can see it being useful for blops and disruptor-range kiting in pvp.

    -The rook not only needs a RLM bonus, but it also needs a helluva lot more PG; a base of 750 would be perfect, but more to the point, something needs to be done with the falcon. A RoF bonus for hybrids and a bigger drone bay would be excellent; it's just worrisome that the force recons got so little attention in this patch apart from the rapier.

    -I need to point this out since it keeps popping up in this thread like a demented gopher and needs to be put down:
    The Huginn should not get missiles. Core Complexion ships in this game have missiles as part of their identity with the new balance meta, so Boundless Creation ships shouldn't be getting it at all in any instance. You want a TP bonus on a t2 missile cruiser? Tough sh*t! Caldari are the ones who need the bloody TP bonuses to compliment their missiles; minmatar just needs something else like web strength or extra combat usability. Web range is a bonus as effective if not more so in pvp since it is the literal definition of range control. They should have fixed this a LONG time ago but it's never once been addressed.
    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #350 - 2014-12-18 18:36:22 UTC
    I think CCP meant

    "Recons no longer show up in local"

    and just typed

    "immune to D-scan"

    by mistake.
    Nikel Ivanovich
    #351 - 2014-12-18 18:37:10 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Cannot be detected by directional scanners


    lol next step Rifter full immune to missiles and drones? LolLolLolLol
    Naava Edios
    Phoenix Naval Operations
    Phoenix Naval Systems
    #352 - 2014-12-18 18:38:55 UTC
    No offense, If I didn't want to be detected I'd just fly the cloakie but still interesting.

    Rise, Still think you need to re-look the rook, Cause you don't make the worst recon useable by adding DScan immunity
    And can we trade a high slot on the falcon and give it a 25 Drone/Bandwidth? Someone who flies the hated Falcon I'd much rather have 5 drones than... 2 useless CAP EATING Guns with my already Cap eating ecm.


    Most of the others look good too, Nice the see the Huginn get a 4th lowslot, I think even the Lachesis was pleading "Rise Give me a forth low too!"


    I actually had hoped you were going to restrict the Falcon to having two High slots period :/
    Ned Thomas
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #353 - 2014-12-18 18:39:49 UTC
    Well.....D3's being able to use combat probes makes a smidge more sense now.

    *Goes to update skill queue*
    Marcel Devereux
    Aideron Robotics
    #354 - 2014-12-18 18:39:55 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    War Kitten wrote:
    The overall boosts to Recons I like - capacitor and tank were lacking. But the individual attention each ship got (or didn't get) is universally meh IMO.

    I like the increased velocity, but the careless wording and typos in the post tends to indicate the care with which the whole balance appears to have been approached.

    "The average maximum velocity across the class is going up by around 20m/s " - CCP Rise

    PILGRIM
    198(+34)

    CURSE
    205(+30)

    FALCON
    192(+23)

    ROOK
    194(+24)

    ARAZU
    207(+27)

    LACHESIS
    220(+29)

    RAPIER
    230(+38)

    HUGINN
    240(+31)

    Real average: +29.5 - only off by 50% or so.

    Just my 2 +/- 1 cents




    much more thoroughness is required .. something he has shown in all his threads sadly .. overbuffs and just neglect seems the theme of most threads..


    OH SNAP!
    Aloe Cloveris
    The Greater Goon
    Clockwork Pineapple
    #355 - 2014-12-18 18:44:08 UTC
    Rook is still garbage just fyi
    MukkBarovian
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #356 - 2014-12-18 18:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
    This is ridiculous.

    - "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
    Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.

    -"Wormholes are unlivable."
    What? Wormholes have all kinds of cloaky things in them all the time. Between the cloaky T3s, the Covops, the Recons and the Stratios its pretty dumb to just wander around without being cloaky. A bomber can target and point you instantly after decloak. A Huginn will have to land on grid decloaked and burn over to you uncloaked. (You're an idiot if you sit within point range of the warp in.) Sure the Huginn is tankier than a single bomber, but its not outright superior as a tackler.

    *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
    There are so many things that already don't show up in WH directional scan that I just don't get why combat recons are some kind of serious problem. Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak? How about the upside that you can at least find out about them with probes?

    -"Dscan tools are broken!"
    No they aren't. The cloaky falcon also didn't show up on the Dscan of the enemy fleet.

    -"10 arty Huginn..."
    Sure the hidden arty Huginn got a slight buff. But 9 arty Rapiers and an instalock bomber can currently create the same effect. You don't see them on scan. They can point you instantly. They blap anemically for the number of ships involved. Somehow I don't regularly worry about cloaky arty Rapier fleets right now.
    Landis Delco
    Interstellar Nuclear Penguins
    Penguin Mafia.
    #357 - 2014-12-18 18:44:38 UTC
    When running a blops fleet, you can throw in combat recons and there forced to use crappy prototype cloaking devices and cant warp and cloak. Now, they just don't show up on D scan will make them just like the rest of the roaming Blops fleet undetectable until they land on grid next to you! This is an amazing change! It's a waste of a high slot having to put a Cloak on a combat Recon.
    Bevici Roden
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #358 - 2014-12-18 18:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bevici Roden
    I feel like this is quite a big power creep. But on the other hand, risky moves by ccp are good. Overall I enjoy the change.

    I wish there was some sort of detection counter that is not a dedicated combat probe scanner equipped ship. Or have the immunity to d scan be tied to a ship class specific module.
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #359 - 2014-12-18 18:47:39 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners
  • Given they can't covert cloak, that's utterly brilliant Big smile

    My Rook, "Jam and Toast", thanks you!
    Dracones
    Tarsis Inc
    #360 - 2014-12-18 18:47:47 UTC
    I think the d-scan mechanic itself could use an overhaul. Make it work off sig radius vs distance so larger ships can be d-scanned from anywhere but smaller ships need to be more up close. Add modules to improve/dampen d-scan or maybe use scan strength. I don't know.

    Recon would have a bonus to dampen d-scan results so it looks/acts more like a frig while other ships might have a bonus towards using their d-scan.

    But as it is now being an "all or nothing" mechanic is pretty uninteresting.