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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Vel'drinn
Sanguine Vipers
#361 - 2014-12-18 18:48:45 UTC
This is the only song playing in my head after reading this post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFtb3EtjEic

CCP gifts us the ultimate gank tool in wormholes! Dscan invisibility is gonna be so good lol.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#362 - 2014-12-18 18:50:10 UTC
BKuCKy wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:

I fear that this will make this ship far out of line in wspace, where intel is already harder to get than in 0.0.



Lol no-scan recons is a death to WH carebears. Less WH carebears -> more price on T3 ships -> more $ players spend for PLEX -> PROFIT for CCP!

While I agree with the quoted statement, I did actually say it. Please fix your quotes.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#363 - 2014-12-18 18:50:17 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
This is ridiculous.

- "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.


this change is probably ok if you're ok with falcons and stuff, but lots of people aren't. doing this makes more things like that happen.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2014-12-18 18:53:27 UTC
I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#365 - 2014-12-18 18:55:00 UTC
It's also pretty amusing that people still decry ECM as overpowered, when it's been consistently shat upon over the last four years. To put it into finer perspective — Goonswarm Federation, an organization for whom the use of cheap, T1 disruption cruisers is signature, abandoned ECM entirely in favor of sensor dampening and tracking disruption. This ought to tell you how unreliable jamming is in the current meta.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Emma DiLivio
DiLivio Biomedicals
#366 - 2014-12-18 18:55:20 UTC
Levina Windstar wrote:
I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

CCP plz... think about WH too! :/


Everyone has probes in WH. If anything it's the place the least affected.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#367 - 2014-12-18 18:59:10 UTC
Pleased...

But reserved as to what ECM changes will ultimately be?

Other ships look pretty great!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#368 - 2014-12-18 18:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
MukkBarovian wrote:
This is ridiculous.

- "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.

-"Wormholes are unlivable."
What? Wormholes have all kinds of cloaky things in them all the time. Between the cloaky T3s, the Covops, the Recons and the Stratios its pretty dumb to just wander around without being cloaky. A bomber can target and point you instantly after decloak. A Huginn will have to land on grid decloaked and burn over to you uncloaked. (You're an idiot if you sit within point range of the warp in.) Sure the Huginn is tankier than a single bomber, but its not outright superior as a tackler.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
There are so many things that already don't show up in WH directional scan that I just don't get why combat recons are some kind of serious problem. Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak? How about the upside that you can at least find out about them with probes?

-"Dscan tools are broken!"
No they aren't. The cloaky falcon also didn't show up on the Dscan of the enemy fleet.

-"10 arty Huginn..."
Sure the hidden arty Huginn got a slight buff. But 9 arty Rapiers and an instalock bomber can currently create the same effect. You don't see them on scan. They can point you instantly. They blap anemically for the number of ships involved. Somehow I don't regularly worry about cloaky arty Rapier fleets right now.

Pretty much well said.
I have never seen any concern about wormhole due to the huge amount of cloaked danger there's already out there,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

I can understand the concern for FW though, but I guess you just have to prepare for the worst.
Spec 593357629
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2014-12-18 19:00:37 UTC
Why do we have to use guns, all the other Recons can fit anti frig weapons. You just declawed the lach, no one fits guns on recons anyways its a waist of time, you are meant to be shooting support ship not the primary.
I will no longer be flying gallente recons they just suck now.

I don't see why they cannot have missiles like they used to. The only weapon that should be used for recons is Rapid light launchers, that's it. Nothing else is much use.

Please reconsider limiting our fitting options for these great ships.

It would not be much to keep the launcher hard points so pilots have a few more fitting options for recons.

Thank you.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#370 - 2014-12-18 19:01:21 UTC
Interesting. BRB buying Lachesis, even if it doesn't have enough low slots.

Can we get a gas-huffing version of the Prospect with this feature, instead of a cloak? Evil

D-scan is still a terrible mechanic, and ECM is still broken--not because it's OP, but because it's either no fun for the jammer or no fun for the jammed.

I wonder if it would be an interesting variant to give them a HIC-like D-scan Inhibitor bubble centered on the ship. That way, you'd know *something* was there, and that something is probably a recon (it could just be the deployable) but you don't know what else is in the bubble. That's about the only way to get any nuance out of the current D-scan mechanic.

But as it is, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I will cheerfully give credit for taking a bold and unexpected step here.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#371 - 2014-12-18 19:04:08 UTC
DScan immunity is game-breaking.

Like interceptor bubble immunity was.

CCP Rise, do you even play Eve anymore?
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#372 - 2014-12-18 19:04:42 UTC
I'm really torn on the immune to dscan thing.... One one hand I think it sounds hilarious and great fun, but on the other hand it feels a bit OP as in a large amount of circumstances it might as well just be a full cloaky, but without the penalties that tends to come with (delayed locking, weaker tank, slower, less powerful bonuses)
I'd certainly want to see them be dscanable whilst on grid.
Need to think about whether I like it or not.... As an idea to throw out there, how about that they just show on dscan as "Unidentified Ship" - so they still gain some advantage but they're not invisible?

Not sure on the Pilgrim getting the range bonus either. Finally it gets some better cap and tank to tussle up close, then it loses the strength bonus? Think I'll have to fly it to make a call on that.
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
#373 - 2014-12-18 19:05:33 UTC
Love it..

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Dys Novus
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#374 - 2014-12-18 19:05:55 UTC
Tbh, I'm not seeing where it is a death sentence to w-space pve other than people fear mongering in hopes it is taken off the table so they don't have to deal with it.

If you are in a sig, they still have to drop probes. See probes, run away.

If they already have the sig, they warp to the default point uncloaked. See warp-in. Run away.

If they have cloakie eyes on grid and get a perfect warpin, there's still the lock delay while your ship slows down and exits warp, which will be about on par with the cloakie dropping cloak, so the point is moot. Oh look, a combat recon exiting warp slooooooowly, run away.


These suffer from more drawbacks than an actual cloak, while retaining better combat stats. Which is the point.

Either way, a Stratios will ruin your day more efficiently than a combat recon warping into you.



This could be an announcement that cloaks were being added to the game and you'd get the exact same whinging. "This is impossible to counter" "Everyone will fly one, welcome to cloaks online" "This is the death of wormholes, I'm offlining my towers" "They are literally invisible and can't be seen until its too late, this isn't what I signed up for" "What do you mean I have to pay attention?"


Keep shaking things up and introducing new mechanics, CCP. People will either adapt or die, but the game will be more varied and interesting for the effort.
Novah Soul
#375 - 2014-12-18 19:06:36 UTC
I don't really fly Recons so take this with a pinch of salt, but does anyone else find it odd that an Amarr hull gets drone bonuses while a Gallente one does not?

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
Levina Windstar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#376 - 2014-12-18 19:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Discomanco wrote:
MukkBarovian wrote:
This is ridiculous.

- "I warp in 2 fite 2 vexor and they also have 2 rook."
Yes this will happen but with the current rules you could warp in to 2 vexors and have 2 falcons decloak on you. Nothing is stopping anybody from doing that.

-"Wormholes are unlivable."
What? Wormholes have all kinds of cloaky things in them all the time. Between the cloaky T3s, the Covops, the Recons and the Stratios its pretty dumb to just wander around without being cloaky. A bomber can target and point you instantly after decloak. A Huginn will have to land on grid decloaked and burn over to you uncloaked. (You're an idiot if you sit within point range of the warp in.) Sure the Huginn is tankier than a single bomber, but its not outright superior as a tackler.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
There are so many things that already don't show up in WH directional scan that I just don't get why combat recons are some kind of serious problem. Whats the difference between a cloaked Falcon and an uncloaked Rook? Does it really come down to those few seconds of targeting delay after decloak? How about the upside that you can at least find out about them with probes?

-"Dscan tools are broken!"
No they aren't. The cloaky falcon also didn't show up on the Dscan of the enemy fleet.

-"10 arty Huginn..."
Sure the hidden arty Huginn got a slight buff. But 9 arty Rapiers and an instalock bomber can currently create the same effect. You don't see them on scan. They can point you instantly. They blap anemically for the number of ships involved. Somehow I don't regularly worry about cloaky arty Rapier fleets right now.

Pretty much well said.
I have never seen any concern about wormhole due to the huge amount of cloaked danger there's already out there,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

I can understand the concern for FW though, but I guess you just have to prepare for the worst.



It's nice to see so many comments regarding WH coming from ppl who actually doesn't live there and have no clue of what they are talking about Shocked.

Anyway, it's your opinion so it's fine, and mine is I think a ship that is immune to D-Scane is too OP in WH. Hell, I'll be the first one to use it but I still think this is too OP and need at least some balance and/or huge drawback.

"I can make billions using my mouth ...

... and sometimes when I talk, too" --- Solecist Project
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#377 - 2014-12-18 19:07:57 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
I'm really torn on the immune to dscan thing.... One one hand I think it sounds hilarious and great fun, but on the other hand it feels a bit OP as in a large amount of circumstances it might as well just be a full cloaky, but without the penalties that tends to come with (delayed locking, weaker tank, slower, less powerful bonuses)
I'd certainly want to see them be dscanable whilst on grid.
Need to think about whether I like it or not.... As an idea to throw out there, how about that they just show on dscan as "Unidentified Ship" - so they still gain some advantage but they're not invisible?

Not sure on the Pilgrim getting the range bonus either. Finally it gets some better cap and tank to tussle up close, then it loses the strength bonus? Think I'll have to fly it to make a call on that.


'hilarious and great fun' just means it's OP but you're flying it.
Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#378 - 2014-12-18 19:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyle Yanowski
On Forced Recon changes:

Limiting the feature of DSCAN immunity to a single class of ships is somewhat folly. I personally feel that that DSCAN immunity should be reserved for a module or rig. Thus giving capsuleers a choice on reducing DPS, or Tank, or Maneuverability in favor of anonymity.

Force Recon implies that these ships should fill a reconnaissance role in fleets (or solo). My proposal is simple:

Force Recon Role Bonus: 200% increase to DSCAN effective range instead of what is currently proposed. This will give the ships a significant role in fleet through the ability to quickly scan down systems as well as in solo.

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.
Carebear McPublord
Department of Magical Law Enforcement
#379 - 2014-12-18 19:08:28 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
The Dscan thingy completely breaks wormhole risk/reward. C1-C3 will be a wasteland


Combat Probes. Holy **** that was difficult.
Tira Janau
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2014-12-18 19:09:35 UTC
So all the things that actually balanced insane EWAR powered ships is getting thrown out the window, this is gonna suck.