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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

First post First post
Icarus Helia
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
#241 - 2011-12-10 07:31:33 UTC
ZaBob wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:

Proactive is not synonymous with competent or good. Plenty of incompetent boobs are very proactive people.

I haven't put any fuel blocks in any of our towers yet. I've been predicting it wouldn't happen before mid-January, but have been prepared for being wrong.

Should we consider that the difference between "proactive" and "hyperactive"?

I would have preferred an earlier date, but I'd have wanted that to be announced well in advance. It wasn't, so I'll take this instead.

being prepared is good - what the people freaking out and raging did is not.

you did it right :)

personally - i made a week of fuel and waited for an exact date before making more or planning for my tower to have only x number of days left....

Why you no care?

Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2011-12-10 07:32:37 UTC
HoshinoRuri wrote:
If possible maybe temporarily turn back on npc selling pos fuel to help relieve the market inflation caused by this and your previous announcements concerning POS and POCO.

This is so against their overall design idea for this game (More PCs, less NPCs) that the answer is 99.99% going to be "nope."
Caldari State
#243 - 2011-12-10 07:34:10 UTC
Realize that but was just throwing an idea out there, the only other option is by creating buy and sell orders under phantom ccp corporations to help control supply.
Icarus Helia
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
#244 - 2011-12-10 07:36:07 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:
Salpun wrote:

As the person that raised the issue on the first pageTwisted The people that converted blocks are the proactive ones. The players that you want in charge of stuff like that becouse you know that they will keep there eyes on the goal and do what ever work is neccessary to make it work.

I'll do the work neccessary but any changes we can get out of CCP like doubling the fuel hanger is a nice plus and shows the devs are listening.

the kind of people who make all of their vital supplies semi-worthless based on a guesstimate date that hasn't been confirmed in any way are NOT the kind of people you want to be in charge of fuelling any important pos.

Proactive is not synonymous with competent or good. Plenty of incompetent boobs are very proactive people.

TwistedTwistedIn WH's you are proactive or you die. CCP did not communicate well, they will make some changes and all will be well. I just feel bad for the guys in null with lots of posses.

Everyone took the info given and make a choice. As with CCP; they are eaither happy or mad about their choice.

Lets ease the pain a little if possible and carry one. o7

I live in a WH. I am proactive. I didn't speculate. I am not the one freaking out that I might die because I have no fuel left... see my post before this one.

Proactivity is a trait of competent people - not what causes them to be competent.

Why you no care?

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2011-12-10 07:50:11 UTC
Crias Taylor wrote:

I don't even want to think about why you suggest that.

Do you want CCP messing around with PowerShell on your computer?
Anarchist's Anonymous
#246 - 2011-12-10 07:51:18 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Thank you for finally announcing a date and a date that is now known well in advance. Should make the transition smooth.

Assuming of course the actual switchover goes without any hilarious bugs... well, I'll have my fuel blocks and bags of popcorn ready...

Yeah, having it late January means everyone is also back at the office, ready to remedy if needed. The programmers responsible for the change have promised to not make any bugs, so we should be in the clear!

Because EvE is fueled on Promise Blocks.

Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2011-12-10 08:12:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That script involves, in practice, removing all the fuel in towers and then adding new fuel to the towers (you're altering types and quantities, and the final quantities have to be larger because of the number of isotopes and so on in the mix, so it's got to be effectively to be a remove and an add). The worst that happens is that the remove happens but the add doesn't and everything goes offline, and testing this requires an upgrade test which (as we've established) is risky in and of itself and takes a lot of time to prepare.

Um, this is exactly what database transactions are for. Making atomic changes are perhaps the biggest reason for using a database in the first place!

Either the remove happens and the add happens, or *NEITHER* happens. That's the 'A' in the ACID properties of a transaction. And the 'C'. And even the 'I'.

If that's not the case, then you are doing something very very wrong. But I believe I've read somewhere you use SQL Server? Ah, yes:

So this is not a legitimate concern.

But testing? Absolutely. For one thing, if there's an error, then NEITHER the remove nor the add happens, and since you won't be accepting the old, the tower would offline.

My point here is narrow and technical, about that one specific failure mode. There are plenty of other risks to concern yourself about whenever you're working with large quantities of live data. Screwing over masses of data irrevocably, forcing a return to a backup (requiring lots of downtime and losing any data after that point), is any database admin or programmer's worst nightmare.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2011-12-10 08:26:49 UTC
I find myself very bemused by the reactions here.

People rage that "CCP has screwed us over again!", while at the same time, proclaiming loudly the great faith they put in vague statements of "a couple weeks" or "approximately two weeks".

One might almost think that the removal of learning skills a while back has somehow extended to RL.

When Cruicible was released, and no actual date was announced, red lights should have lit up your plausibility meter. Especially since the BPOs weren't there when promised!

Now, CCP Greyscale: What you should have announced was simply that you would be sure to give everyone at least a couple of weeks notice. Then, when you announced the actual date, don't you think you would have gotten a different reaction?

Learn from your mistakes, people. Pretty much what life is all about. Blame never leads to learning. Learn from your mistakes.
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2011-12-10 08:34:35 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Oh, and can you allow fuel blocks in the Ore hold of the Rorqual+Orca.

that'd be freaking sweet.

Allowing the ore hold to take Ore, Compressed Ore, Ice, Compressed Ice and Fuel blocks would be an excellent extension to the Rorqal and Orca.

Do this and you are forgiven.
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#250 - 2011-12-10 08:39:04 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why are you tackling these inconsequential survival myths?
What about drinking my own urine? I should be drinking my own urine while the snake bites me, right?!

you oughta pee on your friend's head (/hat)

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#251 - 2011-12-10 09:00:51 UTC
Look on the bright side everyone, if you haven't already, now is the time to get that block BPO nice and researched up. Go ahead and make it perfect, you have the time.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2011-12-10 09:08:14 UTC
Kasulli wrote:
Artctura wrote:
Boltzy Tsero wrote:
So, out of the 180 replies to this post only about 5 are positive!

CCP Greyscale, please ignore all 175 posts by trolls and griefers, and thanks for giving a DATE on when this conversion will take place.

As stated CCP have never given a date and only mention approx two weeks after Crucible regarding the fuel block change over period.

You guys need to give CCP some love for a change! You have just had the best expansion for months!.

Safe! o7

I don't disagree. They've done a phenomenal job with Crucible. The issue here though is the complete lack of information on this and then the shock at the time frame. Kudos to Greyscale for the work he has been doing in explaining, (Which helps a lot, and frankly should be edited into his post on page 1 as well as in the replies) and for trying to get the size of the tower doubled. I have one more recommendation. Drop the PI export tax to 2-3% until the switchover. Then put it to the new levels. This will help drop the price on fuel while this switchover takes place and everyone is "double fueling" without taking any ISK out of the player's hands. Then, starting on the 24th with the new fuel, increase it 3% every week back to what it is now.

That fixes both sides of the issue here. Players get to store the fuel in the tower until the switchover and you get to combat the price increase that comes with the natural market demand going up as a direct result of the switchover as well as put pressure to increase demand when the supply explodes in the first couple of weeks of fuel block operation.

This makes your logistics players happy because the time they've spent already isn't wasted. This makes the corporation bean counter's happy because POS fuel won't spike short term as their logistics players are all of a sudden saying they need twice as much as expected and the PI players should at least see some increased pressure to keep prices consistent as the tax rate rises once all of this is underway.

If you have stations to store in.
Worm Holes.

Will WH survive? Yes - they'll be fine. But if they already got the fuel to WH, they now have to take it back to stations (risky as always when transporting) or have valuable space taken up in their WH - possibly and probably too much space so they could be adequately prepared for change-over. Everything in WH is compounded due to the need for redundancy.

Like I said though - bashing CCP doesn't help. They just need to learn from the communication error. Not a lot of dmg done, just time wasted. WH loses out the worst though.

You're missing the point dude. The fuel blocks can be refined down so that's not the problem. And for storing, learn to XL-Ship Assembly Array.

The problem is the CCP generated costs, not the player ones. They've in essence pulled an ice interdiction and interfered with the market on such a level that many corps won't recover till the fallout from price hikes from player owned custom offices balances out. I personally fully expect PI to increase in price on the market, however those profits aren't being seen yet. If you decide to double your fuel and hang on to your blocks instead of refining them, you're going to be paying a premium on top of additional logistics to "double fuel" towers for another month and a half.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Cole Ontor
Caldari State
#253 - 2011-12-10 09:09:32 UTC
outsoursing the jobs that affect prosponement to china will fix the xmas holida Lol
#254 - 2011-12-10 10:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Herring
Honestly, while your fuel block thing is a definite step in the right direction, the right move would be to implement solar arrays so you only had to use fuel blocks when attacked and the array was destroyed, or when the moon's orbit took it out of the direct path of the system's starlight (ideally this would just mean a 80-90% reduction in fuel costs as I see it). Right now, a POS has too high of a cost to run outright (even discounting the risk of it being destroyed) for the benefit it provides.

Honestly I'd love to see them run fuelless unless attacked (when they have a solar array in place) but so many people have built up business around PI and ice, that's not reasonable or fair to those people. But they sure as hell should be cheaper to run than they are now. Overall cost to fuel wouldn't change that much as you'd see a lot more people deploying structures.

Just my 0.02


edit: I mean really, I could be running a large or tower or two every month or buying a plex for another account every month. No brainer.
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2011-12-10 10:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldarean
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, so here's what happened.

We knew we needed at least two weeks between Crucible going live and us patching in the change, so people had time to sort out their logistics.

We can't safely do the switch between ~Decembec 17th and ~January 15th due to various key people leaving the country for Christmas, and the need for a clear run-up to the patch.

We had the patch on the 14th scheduled primarily to do this switchover, as it's effectively the last possible date before Christmas to safely do this (we don't patch later in the week because it means fallout drags into the weekend, and particularly in this case a lot of people are getting on aircraft that weekend).

Our original test plan would've seen us squared away weeks ago, but a series of various unforeseen events meant our critical "upgrade test" (requires a spare "full-sized" test server) got repeatedly bumped back in the schedule.

We finally ran the test earlier this week, and the thing we were most anticipating breaking, broke. The fix is relatively straightforward, but it requires us running another upgrade test to confirm that the fix works.

WEe weren't expecting the second test to be ready until today or Monday, and in the unlikely event that that didn't go smoothly it'd leave way too little time for you all to sort your towers out. Therefore we made the decision to push the deployment of the change back.

As above, once we miss the 14th we can't safely patch for at least a month. Given that we already had a small post-Crucible tidy-up patch scheduled for the 24th, we opted to bundle the fuel switch into that patch rather than running two "serious business" patches (ie, full client/server patch) less than a fortnight apart, because it's safer and causes less overhead.

It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.

Why couldn't this been explained at the beginning of the post. Now it sounds as if you were running around like headless chickens trying to come up with an excuse. Instead of pretending you were doing everyone a favour.

On side note, earlier this year CCP announced the reworking of jump bridges (one jump bridge per system). In that post what would have happened if the date of that going live was pushed back 6 weeks, only 1 week before it supposed to go live. All the null alliance would have threatened to quit. Like most things that appear to happen, would CCP have folded to the null alliance and ensured the original date was kept, probably.

What people are concerned about is the cost now of Fuel, so can't CCP have POS run on zero fuel, or half the fuel (exl robotics) for the next 6 weeks.

This would pretty much appease everyone other than the griefers.
- fuel market stabalises
- Logistics of POS less of headache during this time
- everyone can produce fuel blocks and load up POS in readiness for switchover.

Come on CCP make that an Xmas present this year.
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2011-12-10 11:02:21 UTC
this is unacceptable the release of fuel block came with a 2 week interval now you drag it tt the end of januari

thanks just what i needed to hear more PI production to fill the damn gap for once you created again.
(to give more time to produce stock of fuelblocks) Seriously if you havent build the blocks by know you have failed.

#257 - 2011-12-10 11:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCFAIL
so you basically telling us, instead of risking a patch before xmas, it makes more sense to **** up the whole PI market?

I mean ppl where buying fuel to build fuel blocks. Now ppl are buying fuel again to refuel their towers.
so effectivly ppl where buying 3 times the fuel from the market they normaly would have.

Where should that fuel come from? So prices are rising for the PI Materials as well as the ice materials - making it impossible to afford to continue running some poses for some ppl.
Which results in the T2 raw material prices to rise as well.
which means that producing some stuff will become unprofitable, making the price there rise as well.
... should I continue?...

sorry, but this is worse then bringing a patch when some of the developers are not there or something or even whith way to short notice, because this is a situation that is most likely going to ruin some markets in eve a lot, and thats more likely to cause ppl to quit then when a pos or two go offline, because the ppl didn't read devblogs and news.
Stargazer Exploration Company
#258 - 2011-12-10 12:19:50 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Look on the bright side everyone, if you haven't already, now is the time to get that block BPO nice and researched up. Go ahead and make it perfect, you have the time.

some people are f'n noobs - takes 4 days to get it to perfect and that is with a little PE thrown in~ L2Research
Myz Toyou
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2011-12-10 12:24:25 UTC
Swearte Widfarend wrote:

I think the timing is quite interesting, since you could have purchased your BPOs, and put them into PE research (which takes just over a month to get perfect PE and 3 minute build times) - and you will have those perfect PE BPs ready to produce with just enough lead time to still fuel a lot of towers.

This is Bullshit... perfect ME is 40 and PE is 30, both is done in a week.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#260 - 2011-12-10 12:29:04 UTC
Aluminy wrote:
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Look on the bright side everyone, if you haven't already, now is the time to get that block BPO nice and researched up. Go ahead and make it perfect, you have the time.

some people are f'n noobs - takes 4 days to get it to perfect and that is with a little PE thrown in~ L2Research

Some people are ******* noobs, apparently with reading and comprehending English language.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!