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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1461 - 2014-08-26 15:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Van Steiza wrote:
I too will allow anyone moving through any chains im connected too to get out if need be.


Seems a fair and reasonable point of view we should all take, after all their in game lives have been hurt enough without us preying on them like hyenas on the wounded.

Hey fozzie how about letting us insure ships in the hole, then your metrics might get the real effects to show up quickly.

"Self destruct initiates in twenty seconds,"

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1462 - 2014-08-26 15:20:36 UTC
Despite all was said around here you went through with your nincompoop idea. And you are still wondering how your designs are always reiterated by players ?!?
Golf Clap
Bleedingthrough
#1463 - 2014-08-26 15:23:17 UTC
My beloved EvE-Devs,
I been around for close to 10 years now
and I still love this game, Fozzie.

I am very passionate about WH space because
I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE.
Also my corporation is helping new players to
get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice
but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)

We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape
and share the good time we have here.

Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics
I need to tell you that this is horrible.

I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever.
Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is
pretty much how our entire group feels about this.

If you have any good intentions for the well-being
of w-space please listen to us. There has not been
a single entity that had anything positive to say
about this change.

Whatever good intentions you had with this change
it will hurt w-space.

Cheers,
Bleeding
Scarlet Nobleonce
D4RK M00N
#1464 - 2014-08-26 15:25:32 UTC
Thanks CCP for letting us know you care nuthing for your player base. This a horbaly broken machanic is flakey as hell. I nominate CCP Fozzie for the darwin award. for most hated patch of all time. A nother briliant patch from CCP.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1465 - 2014-08-26 15:25:42 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:
My beloved EvE-Devs,
I been around for close to 10 years now
and I still love this game, Fozzie.

I am very passionate about WH space because
I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE.
Also my corporation is helping new players to
get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice
but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)

We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape
and share the good time we have here.

Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics
I need to tell you that this is horrible.

I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever.
Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is
pretty much how our entire group feels about this.

If you have any good intentions for the well-being
of w-space please listen to us. There has not been
a single entity that had anything positive to say
about this change.

Whatever good intentions you had with this change
it will hurt w-space.

Cheers,
Bleeding










It is like trying to get a cheating unfaithful wife to reform.

They get called ex wives for a good reason.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1466 - 2014-08-26 15:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Van Steiza wrote:

I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other.
I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.

Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.

Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.

Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.

Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.

What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.

THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!

I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.

If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.


So I say to you Fozzie:

**** you Fozzie **** you in the ass you ******* ****.

On what planet did risk averse people jump an unsupported carrier and dread in for fights with medium/large entities? You're basically making up PvP scenarios that never took place even pre-Hyperion to support your argument, an argument which is basically nonsense. On the one hand you say that solo "force multiplier" fights involving unsupported carrier(s) and dread(s) was possible pre-Hyperion, and that by jumping in potentially 20km apart that this is now utterly impossible?

People who have hardly any numbers online blindly throwing caps at larger forces that they can't beat even with a carrier? Yeah that happens all day long, they don't POS up or log off immediately or anything.

What it sounds like you're defending is people being able to throw a capital into a wormhole safe in the knowledge that if the heat gets too much they can jump back out again in safety. That's not fighting, that's bottom-tier PvP. Fights on wormholes are - except in instances where both sides are up for the fight and comparable size - an utter waste of time. Either party can deaggress on a whim and jump out to save their ship.

If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all. It's a fallacy to suggest it was a force multiplier solo, because the force you're proposing it multiples is exactly the force that should be able to protect it as it motors back to the wormhole. If by "force" you mean your couple of alts - well, once again, we're talking weak sauce "deaggress when the heat gets too much" PvP.

I fully welcome mechanics that encourage commitment of capitals. I say again - in nullsec space it would be laughable to suggest that one guy and his alts should be able to ping around different systems with impunity simply because they know to a certainty that jumping in and back out again will stop anyone from being able to follow them. if rage-rolling has to take a time penalty hit for this then so be it.

And lest we forget - for the "victims" being rolled into, when this happens they also now can't collapse you in/out easily. So if you roll into someone who was about to bear, they either have to deal with your presence now, fight you off the hole so they can close it, or give up for the day. There will, in spite of all the doom mongering, be people who don't want to have to turn Eve off because a PvP entity happened to roll into them and they now can't do what they wanted to do. Burning ISK making time is a strong motivator.

Basically - wait and see what happens before you pronounce the end of days, eh?
Scarlet Nobleonce
D4RK M00N
#1467 - 2014-08-26 15:43:27 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Van Steiza wrote:

I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other.
I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.

Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.

Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.

Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.

Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.

What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.

THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!

I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.

If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.


So I say to you Fozzie:

**** you Fozzie **** you in the ass you ******* ****.

On what planet did risk averse people jump an unsupported carrier and dread in for fights with medium/large entities? You're basically making up PvP scenarios that never took place even pre-Hyperion to support your argument, an argument which is basically nonsense. On the one hand you say that solo "force multiplier" fights involving unsupported carrier(s) and dread(s) was possible pre-Hyperion, and that by jumping in potentially 20km apart that this is now utterly impossible?

People who have hardly any numbers online blindly throwing caps at larger forces that they can't beat even with a carrier? Yeah that happens all day long, they don't POS up or log off immediately or anything.

What it sounds like you're defending is people being able to throw a capital into a wormhole safe in the knowledge that if the heat gets too much they can jump back out again in safety. That's not fighting, that's bottom-tier PvP. Fights on wormholes are - except in instances where both sides are up for the fight and comparable size - an utter waste of time. Either party can deaggress on a whim and jump out to save their ship.

If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all. It's a fallacy to suggest it was a force multiplier solo, because the force you're proposing it multiples is exactly the force that should be able to protect it as it motors back to the wormhole. If by "force" you mean your couple of alts - well, once again, we're talking weak sauce "deaggress when the heat gets too much" PvP.

I fully welcome mechanics that encourage commitment of capitals. I say again - in nullsec space it would be laughable to suggest that one guy and his alts should be able to ping around different systems with impunity simply because they know to a certainty that jumping in and back out again will stop anyone from being able to follow them. if rage-rolling has to take a time penalty hit for this then so be it.

And lest we forget - for the "victims" being rolled into, when this happens they also now can't collapse you in/out easily. So if you roll into someone who was about to bear, they either have to deal with your presence now, fight you off the hole so they can close it, or give up for the day. There will, in spite of all the doom mongering, be people who don't want to have to turn Eve off because a PvP entity happened to roll into them and they now can't do what they wanted to do. Burning ISK making time is a strong motivator.

Basically - wait and see what happens before you pronounce the end of days, eh?



Man i would like what ever your smoking!
It is true you dont normaly blindly comit multi caps with out support fleets. however the point remains that the machanic is horbaly broken. Actvation Range can be sketchey. I hope to god they apply the same machanic to cynos and gates. so other people can feel our pain insted of just blindly posting with no idea on the repercusions this change has on our community.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1468 - 2014-08-26 15:44:36 UTC
Van Steiza wrote:

I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other.


Yeah I wanna see pics of that, that is....yeah....that's ****** up.
Mii-Tan Thiefraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1469 - 2014-08-26 15:46:27 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:
My beloved EvE-Devs,
I been around for close to 10 years now
and I still love this game, Fozzie.

I am very passionate about WH space because
I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE.
Also my corporation is helping new players to
get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice
but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)

We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape
and share the good time we have here.

Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics
I need to tell you that this is horrible.

I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever.
Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is
pretty much how our entire group feels about this.

If you have any good intentions for the well-being
of w-space please listen to us. There has not been
a single entity that had anything positive to say
about this change.

Whatever good intentions you had with this change
it will hurt w-space.

Cheers,
Bleeding










My corporation is one of the new ones Bleeding is talking about, Raptor Navy has been a huge help for us. We have just started to be able to close for ourselves.

I understand we are a small unknown corporation with limited understanding, we however also see this as a less than enjoyable change. Just getting started as it used to be was risky enough, now we are back to relying on Raptor Navy to close for us.
Van Steiza
Whale Girth
#1470 - 2014-08-26 15:46:49 UTC
Durzel wrote:




If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.


What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#1471 - 2014-08-26 16:02:38 UTC
Mii-Tan Thiefraven wrote:
Bleedingthrough wrote:
My beloved EvE-Devs,
I been around for close to 10 years now
and I still love this game, Fozzie.

I am very passionate about WH space because
I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE.
Also my corporation is helping new players to
get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice
but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)

We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape
and share the good time we have here.

Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics
I need to tell you that this is horrible.

I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever.
Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is
pretty much how our entire group feels about this.

If you have any good intentions for the well-being
of w-space please listen to us. There has not been
a single entity that had anything positive to say
about this change.

Whatever good intentions you had with this change
it will hurt w-space.

Cheers,
Bleeding










My corporation is one of the new ones Bleeding is talking about, Raptor Navy has been a huge help for us. We have just started to be able to close for ourselves.

I understand we are a small unknown corporation with limited understanding, we however also see this as a less than enjoyable change. Just getting started as it used to be was risky enough, now we are back to relying on Raptor Navy to close for us.



It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1472 - 2014-08-26 16:03:28 UTC
Van Steiza wrote:
Durzel wrote:




If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.


What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc.

forget testing the numbers are clearly printed for everyone to read on the dev blog...durzel is simply here to troll not actually provide constructive feedback
Vorick Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1473 - 2014-08-26 16:08:52 UTC
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1474 - 2014-08-26 16:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Van Steiza wrote:
Durzel wrote:




If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.


What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc.

Like I said, they'll have around 5-10km to travel to reach 5km jump range. With proper support, that's inconsequential.

This change effectively stops people just jumping caps solo to rage-roll, the change is designed to ensure that people jump capitals when they have an effective gang on standby to protect them, not jumping them back and forth without any real danger (since you spawned the hole in the first place you have the advantage of whoever you might jump into having to scan it before they can mobilise).

The change stops 1 or 2 people rage-rolling with just themselves and alts - while the rest of their corp sleeps or is sat on TS playing World of Tanks contributing nothing of value because they can't contribute anything of value. They can't collapse any quicker by sitting around on the wormhole while it gets collapsed and another scanned out. They are completely redundant in the collapsing process.

Whether people are upset that they can't just bear in peace while their corpies are asleep by critting/collapsing their incoming holes in safety is a secondary consideration - but let's not pretend this is about PvP and the precious risk-averse small corps who suddenly won't commit to fights they didn't commit to before anyway, or some nonsense about solo/small entities jumping caps with next to no support because carriers are magic force mulitpliers or some ****.

The elephant in the room that people are secretly annoyed about with this change is that:

  1. People suddenly can't bear safely by closing up holes with just 1 or 2 accounts
  2. People can't have weak ass fights on wormholes safe in the knowledge they can just jump in and already be in jump range to jump back out again if they get shot too much


None of this has anything to do with meaningful PvP really, it's just another form of risk aversion that people aren't prepared to admit is what it is.

People who are risk averse and wouldn't have warped to a wormhole to collapse it when you connected to them pre-Hyperion are going to continue not doing so, so nothing changes.

edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms.
Bleedingthrough
#1475 - 2014-08-26 16:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
calaretu wrote:

It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above


You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053
Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home.

It feels like a gate now.

And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection.

Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day?
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1476 - 2014-08-26 16:48:37 UTC
Just as horrible as I thought it would be, thanks CCP...Cry
Abon Riff
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#1477 - 2014-08-26 16:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Abon Riff
With effect from 1st September 2014, all Ford motor vehicles sold in the USA will have a new feature added to their engine management system. This device will be known as RED (Random Engine Disabler). What RED does, is at a random point in time from starting yor engine, it will shut off the fuel to the carburetor; causing the engine to stall and the car to coast to a stop. Ford have decided to do this to enhance the driving experience of their cars, along with reducing emmissions from their motors as a whole.

This device was trialed in Panama in May, and initial public response was shock and horror. One man, Pablo Garcia, a local government offocal stated, "We neither need or want this change, and 90% of our drivers feel that it adds nothing to our driving experience. In fact it makes it a whole lot more dangerous". he also wrote an article for the The Bocas Breeze, a Panamanian newspaper, In it he said that it was the dumbest thing he had ever heard of, and the only one likely to remain alive after a 'RED stop', were people in large SUVs or Trucks.

Fords online forums have become clogged up with people voicing their disgust at this proposed change, but it seems Ford just are not listening.

A Ford spokesman said that he was excited with this upcoming change and will herald a whole new driving experience for our Ford driver base. He's also quoted as saying, that despite public concerns, Ford would be going ahead with the minor software change to the engine management chip.

Drivers of other cas are likely to remain unaffected, though a Toyota spokesman was heard to say, "In terms of Toyota, this is the best thing Ford have ever proposed".

N.B. Other car makes could have been chosen for this example, as could other countries. No harm or insult is intended to drivers of Ford, Toyota, or the residents of North Amreica or Panama.
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1478 - 2014-08-26 16:55:24 UTC
Abon Riff wrote:
With effect from 1st September 2014, all Ford motor vehicles sold in the USA will have a new feature added to their engine management system. This device will be known as RED (Randon Engine Disabler). What RED does, is at a random point in time from starting yor engine, it will shut off the fuel to the carburetor; causing the engine to stall and the car to coast to a stop. Ford have decided to do this to enhance the driving experience of their cars, along with reducing emmissions from their motors as a whole.

This device was trialed in Panama in May, and initial public response was shock and horror. One man, Pablo Garcia, a local government offocal stated, "We neither need or want this change, and 90% of our drivers feel that it adds nothing to our driving experience. In fact it makes it a whole lot more dangerous". he also wrote an article for the The Bocas Breeze, a Panamanian newspaper, In it he said that it was the dumbest thing he had ever heard of, and the only one likely to remain alive after a 'RED stop', were people in large SUVs or Trucks.

Fords online forums have become clogged up with people voicing their disgust at this proposed change, but it seems Ford just are not listening.

A Ford spokesman said that he was excited with this upcoming change and will herald a whole new driving experience for our Ford driver base. He s also quoted as saying, that despit epublic concerns, Ford would be going ahead with the minor software change to the engine management chip.

Drivers of other cas are likely to remain unaffected, though a Toyota spokesman was heard to say, "In terms of Toyota, this is the best thing Ford have ever proposed".

N.B. Other car makes could have been chosen for this example, as could other countries. No harm or insult is intended to drivers of Ford, Toyota, or the residents of North Amreica or Panama.




lol
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1479 - 2014-08-26 17:00:45 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4954065 Proposal for mass-based spawn distance on Jump Portals and Jump Drives.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1480 - 2014-08-26 17:19:40 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:

You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053
Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home.

It feels like a gate now.

And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection.

Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day?



**Goes off to suggest on corp forums we have a "don't jump wormholes without full strength online" policy**

(I'm just kidding btw but sadly for some that is likely to happen with this change).