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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1121 - 2014-08-19 19:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Obil Que wrote:
I agree. I think this is where the end result is. Larger fully capable gank fleets flown by the larger PvP entities who, instead of rolling holes, now jump the chain looking for targets. It doesn't have to be a blob fest per se, just a fleet capable of dealing with the site runners it is likely to come across. The fleet that can, with a degree of speed, complete their dscan sweep and warp before the site runner can notice the new signature and get his fleet into warp will get kills. This is not entirely a bad thing for EvE (roaming fleets) but unless more is done to provide incentive to the site runners, an uptick in ganking will inevitably result in a comparable decrease in site runners with the obvious chain reaction effect. This is far more the result of the K162 changes that PvP corps have been begging for than anything else. I only hope that it has the effect they desire in the long term.


Also, the new emphasis will be on ganks. Not that we never ganked anyone, but we prided ourselves on taking straight brawls, often out-shipped or out-numbered, but always in relatively small engagements. If we rolled into some huge corp whose fleet we had no chance against, we'd roll the dice and try to flash-crash our static. If that gambit failed, welp. Not much we can do about 50 T3s backed by 8 Guardians. Anyone up for Civ V?

We've moved out of J-space for now due to a significant lull in activity, but I liked it enough that I have an eye to going back. But I have no interest whatsoever in joining a large corp, and I don't see much future in trying to be the small corp we were if this goes live. Which is a pity, because I loved WH space, and all of the other proposed WH changes are awesome.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1122 - 2014-08-20 04:02:53 UTC
Even with the updated version of this change it still makes it a lot harder for small corps to exercise hole control (pre-emprive rolling away from an entity that outnumbers you).

Defensive rolling is probably the only mechanic which effectively keeps blobbing tactics from being abused in wormhole space. This is what Fozzie isn't getting. If small corps can't do anything about their connection to a larger hostile entity with reasonable amount of risk then this change is making w-space more like nullsec without cynos.

Even with current mechanics a lot of times there's nothing to be done except POS up and log. But at least there were times when you could drain the connection of a lot of mass or roll it entirely with a reasonable amount of risk if you were fast on the draw. Now with the updated change it still looks like rolling = much greater risk of losing the rolling ship(s) and free killmails for anyone camping the hole.

Most people deal with grids where the mechanics offer free kills by simply not showing up.

I want more small gang fights, but WH corps come in all shapes and sizes... it was hole rolling and mass draining that evened the odds between corps and alliances of different size. Just don't understand why CCP wants to fuq with this mechanic. Unless the idea was initiated by a blue doughnut CSM Roll
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1123 - 2014-08-20 08:43:30 UTC
Obil Que wrote:


Adapt or die. Wormhole space truly only is friendly to smaller groups when they can exercise adequate hole control. It isn't like 300 where a small force is controlling a point of entry, it is entirely based on the concept of isolation and awareness (for both the small group and dedicated farming groups). That isolation is specifically being targeted. Those small and farming groups that can adapt to this more random space through applied effort to close holes and increased awareness of randoms will continue to exist, those that do not...



You seem to always concern yourself ONLY with the small picture. Have you not read at all the many posts about WH space eco-balance ? As you yourself basically said, the number of smaller sized groups that live in WH space will decrease because some won't be able to adapt.

Since large WH based entities are mainly concerned with PVP (not a one will dismiss promising pew opportunity for a chance of bearing), their activity levels will go down threefold:
- because of the increase in hole rolling time (main source of WH pvp; no such thing currently as roaming fleets in WHs)
- because of the decrease in number of possible medium and small targets
- because of the added home-field advantage this change gives the defenders in a equal pilot numbers 'fair' fight (as if home field advantage is not enough of a deterrent already);

As someone already pointed out there is an existing trend for large WH entities to seek null pew instead of WH pew because of the ease with witch the first can be found compared to the second. I consider this a bad trend and the spawn distance change will only make it worse. I see WH space slowly becoming exclusively the land of Null roamers that only base out of WHs while not actually 'living' there. Many people that love current WH life, maybe even as far as considering it the eve 'endgame'(like myself), will be sorely disappointed.

Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back.

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1124 - 2014-08-20 16:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
Looking at the updated distance vs. mass numbers in the devblog, I can say with absolute certainty that when you're talking about a half billion + isk ship (Orca) or multi-billion ship (Caps), its a deal-breaker, plain and simple, to lose the ship to randomly spawning too far out of jump range.

Yeah recruit sub-cap support, yeah use cheaper battleships, yeah yeah etc. But maybe I just wanna roam with 3 or 4 of my friends and we can't field support to roll a hole away from a hostile system that regularly sees 10-20 dudes log in. Maybe I just want to choose my fights and find another group we're on a more even keel with.

This change is gonna make it a whole lot harder to do that efficiently and with acceptable risk. Its gonna come down to POSing up and logging or accepting the likelihood that we'll get backstab blobbed while scouting other chains and put on the pod express back to empire. I don't pay subscription money for choices like that.

And it really doesn't make a difference if your Orca or cap has an 80% chance or a 50% chance or a 25% chance or x% chance of spawning 6-9 km out of jump range. Unless you're stupid rich you won't be committing anything more than BSs to roll - and BSs take time unless you got 10 - 20 dudes and coordination. That's the very definition of small corp killing changes. Unless you can kill that hole fast you're stuck with it, gg thx for playing logoff at POS and (not) see you tomorrow. Wow really loving that content - not.

If there's even a 10% chance you'll land an Orca or cap 6 - 9 km out of jump range and collapsing the hole, you can bet every isk in your wallet the opposition is gonna have web Loki's and bumping boats on grid and you can kiss those billion isk rolling ships goodbye. I mean WTF, why not just put stargates in wormholes, its effectively the same thing from the decision-making standpoint.

This change combined with all the additional random wormhole connections... I'm just feeling the creep of null-seccing wormhole space. Nullsec is all about having to deal with a static environment that you cannot do anything about. Power projection mechanics can end your tenure in null at any time. You either play (pay) by the rules laid by the sov holders and the large coalitions or you get burned out.

Wormhole space *was* unique because of the ability of players to exercise control over where their w-space home system led to. Its a player-influenced dynamic environment. If anything CCP should be giving us more options to exercise more control over our environment. But Hyperion is gonna turn w-space into a dynamic environment that many if not most players will be unable to do much about. And that to my mind, is not much better than nullsec and is heading in the direction of making w-space like nullsec.

What I wanted to see happen was for there to always be ONE open wormhole exiting to somewhere in New Eden from every w-space system. Just an automated spawn with a connecting K162 and randomly selected if multiple statics or random wormholes are present. That way it would be impossible to completely seal off your system to just farm endlessly. BUT, players would be allowed to INFLUENCE or CHOOSE what systems your w-space system would connect to for the day. THAT is what I wanted, not this.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1125 - 2014-08-20 20:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


12. Spamming is prohibited.

Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words “first”, “go back to (insert other game name)” and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1126 - 2014-08-20 21:31:18 UTC
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1127 - 2014-08-20 23:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Rroff wrote:
I dunno why people focus so much on the risk factor - sure when there is someone to take advantage of that window of vulnerability there is an extra risk factor there but by and large when people are collapsing wormholes there simply isn't anyone there or anyone in an immediate position to take advantage of that. Sure sometimes people roll in the face of entities that they couldn't deal with, occasionally an orca gets away, etc. but as general life in wormholes go those are edge cases.

This change will also tend to strengthen the need to be part of a larger entity and in a small but not insignificant way errode wormholes towards being more like nullsec by reducing the ability to manipulate wormhole space so as you aren't forced to engage larger entities on an open battlefield which tends to more often than not come down to a pure numbers game.

The changes that are needed IMO would be to firstly incentivise people not to collapse in the first place (i.e. random chance to spawn higher value NPCs or containers/items in sites if the static is healthy, etc.) and then maybe a change to the final shrink whereby it becomes some sort of "weak" non-static wormhole for a limited time without holding the static open or introducing needless delays. (Not really a fan of that kind of mechanic but there is some intermediate potential there maybe).

Yes, other incentives to encourage one not to need to close holes to seek combat, would be promising.

But please understand, this is absolutely not just about risk factor, while increasing risk will affect the decision as to whether people roll holes or not, this proposal goes way way beyond that.

The risk is not that you may encounter more opposition, or harder battles, it is whether you randomly get dropped into a position where NOTHING can save you. That cannot be mitigated against by fitting skill or tactics. THAT is what is so greatly concerning.

If CCP ONLY wanted to increase risk, and encourage combat, then they could have simply said that capitals would jump 5km outside of the range they could jump back and as the hole was destabilised by such a large mass then all the ships that followed would land on the heavy ship.

But no they wanted all the ships to spawn scattered randomly across a wide sphere where some would end up easy victims.

See the difference?


I appreciate your position, truly. It does make me wonder, just as an academic exercise, what do you think wormhole residents, and specifically cap pilots, would be like today if this mechanic had been in place from the inception of wormholes. Would this even be an issue? Would we simply see wormhole space as one where you do not jump caps into hostile holes? Would the inevitable blueballing presence of a cap fleet on a home hole simply have been the death of high-end wormhole combat?

I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play. By a similar token though, many players ask specifically for randomness in their PvE content. It is entirely possible that such random elements could result in no-win situations for a given pilot if they had chosen to enter into that environment with a less than capable ship for all possible outcomes. Is that all that different than a cap pilot rolling the dice jumping into a mechanic that they know as the possibility of being a no-win outcome, especially since that outcome is entirely player dependent at that point by requiring a hostile force engage the cap before it returns through the hole.




In reply to the question what would be the state currently if this mechanic had been in place since the beginning.

The answer is quite simple, there would be fewer subscribers than currently.

No one appreciates playing a game that has lost the core concept of eve, which Hilmar understood with the loss of his first thorax, that eve is real and the results are as a direct consequence of our actions, skill, and tactics and fittings

Not ooops! bad luck didn't really matter anyway, it's only Space Pixels."

Just doesn't have the same feel does it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries
#1128 - 2014-08-20 23:12:11 UTC
Shame that WH space even in higher tiers wormholes will become less welcoming to smaller groups. Shame that CCP is stubborn with mechanics of change (chance and mass based) instead of adding come speed/tactic flavor for sub-caps.


I just hope that if data will prove most of us right CCP will revert change. If we were mostly wrong then it is even better for game. It is me being naive but hope die last.

Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#1129 - 2014-08-20 23:16:28 UTC
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.


I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1130 - 2014-08-20 23:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kirasten wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.


I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes


Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this.What? that's one way of keeping it below 80.Evil

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1131 - 2014-08-21 00:54:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kirasten wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.


I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes


Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this.What? that's one way of keeping it below 80.Evil

I honestly don't think the devs give a damn about how many posts we make. What's the point? I can't even unsub in a reasonable amount of time to show my outrage cause I buy my time in blocks.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1132 - 2014-08-21 01:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kirasten wrote:
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.


I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes


Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this.What? that's one way of keeping it below 80.Evil

I honestly don't think the devs give a damn about how many posts we make. What's the point? I can't even unsub in a reasonable amount of time to show my outrage cause I buy my time in blocks.

Actually you can unsub even if you have say 3 or 6 months time left. your account will only go inactive at the end of that timeblock but most importantly as I said in a post that I cant seem to find now, you can give a reason why you are unsubbing. kinda like a vote.

I hope this post was helpfull amd friendly to my fellow forum users and in no way spamming or ranting.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum
Random Violence.
#1133 - 2014-08-21 03:37:58 UTC
"Ranting"?

Dear CCP,
Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.

My group, just had the meeting about what were going to do after the change, when
we cant control the wormhole against the blobs. We war gamed, tested the stuff on
the test server blah blah blah. This sucks, we enjoyed being able to fight and play the game
in the small gangs having access to all the eve regions Etc blah blah.
We know you don't care, we know Fozzie is gonna push this regardless of
we say. It doesn't take rocket science, just look at the number of posts.

Next time, don't bother with a forum, when your going to chop the rants, complaints, and
relevant suggestions, and have an end state of doing whatever your going to do
no matter what people say. Remember we are your consumers, and frankly
after this "customer Service" your giving us, you may need to look at getting
some better management before you kill your product and have to find a new job.

Eh, this is going to fall on def ears , so i will close with this, blah blah blah
and the mine craft server will be good to go. contact me in game for address

Derpy Derp derp. Good luck




LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1134 - 2014-08-21 06:37:06 UTC
I don't see why people feel the need to rant aimlessly about this change and the lack of response from CCP. Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.

I also agree with the delaying of this change for the record, I feel that with hyperion coming in 5 days and this change not being refined and ready yet that more time should be added for discussion and updating the planned change. It is a very dramatic change that will have rippling effects across the entire wormhole community, such a change should not be taken lightly.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1135 - 2014-08-21 07:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
LT Alter wrote:
Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.


It was pretty clear listening to the w-space CSM town hall that Fozzie thinks this change is one of those "for the good of the game" type of changes. He specifically expressed disapproval of the idea of rolling all the wormholes in a system and sealing it off for farming. So I suspect this change and a couple of others are being patched in specifically to "deal" with that.

The question of course is, at what cost?

Pretty sure the response from lower-class w-space is going to consist of yet more "parking lot" systems with two sigs and 200+ anoms. Oh and the usual nothin' on dscan except zombie sticks and quad stabbed epithals. Yay they didn't nerf PI. Roll

I'll say it again, just make every w-space system have at least one open connection at all times but let players choose their connections. Then take this change out to the trash heap along with the more random/frig/impossible to roll wormhole changes. We want more player control over w-space and more small corp friendly environments with danger and risk that can be tuned to the interests of the corp.

Make rolling holes more integral to w-space, not less.

For example let large PvP corps roll to sov null, npc null, lowsec/FW systems or C4-6 holes.

Let small PvP corps roll to lowsec, C3's & 4's, and FW low.

Indy corps can roll to empty low/high/w-space connections for mining/ratting and dedicated hunters who find them through these connections will have earned their kills. Buff site values for lower class wormholes (esp. C1/2) to compensate for the increased risk of being ganked.

Just let players have more control over their connecting systems not less and this additional freedom will make a lot of folks happy.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1136 - 2014-08-21 10:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Ok detailed analysis and discussions of this change seem to be too complicated to get a response, if this hits the mark then anyone who is actually interested can go back and read ALL of them, and there are many,

So let's reduce it almost to the point of ad absurdum.

1.Jumping through to close a wormhole, Gives hostile defenders a significant advantage, and Luck is the deciding factor of whether attackers can reduce or increase that.

2.One cannot jump an overwhelming force in due to mass limits, unless one goes all in and closes the hole behind you.
Either Total Victory or Total defeat results, No reinforcements can be brought in by the attacker. Defender can flood the field of combat with ships. Slamming the door in the enemies face is no longer a rational available option

So unless you are attacking a much weaker enemy, then you have just self destructed your fleet. It provides a Massive boost to anyone who has unlimited reinforcements, For example, losec blocks, Nullblocks, when closing a KS Hole, but an unmitigated disaster for small wormhole corps..and anyone else who LIVES in a wormhole.

3. 1 still applies.

4. Mexican standoff results with both determined not to jump through to the defenders side.

So in short, why on earth would one even think to try with this new change? Sure Brave is one thing but playing like an imbecile is quite another.

So please explain how this will benefit PVP in any way, as bashing POS to the ground consistantly, every hour, of every day, seems to be the only PVP it would encourage There would be little else available other than randomly wandering around looking for ganks?

Fighting on the hole will be an activity that becomes a thing of the past and of ancient legend.Evil

So what benefit do we gain for this change that redefines wormhole space?

Actually none, what we gain is tooth grinding tedium!

Who proposed this again?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1137 - 2014-08-21 12:42:17 UTC
Coming back to this after the rest of the hyperion dev blogs, it's even more frustrating. If not for this one change, this expansion would be one of the best since Apocrypha. This one change ruins it, not because it makes things dangerous, not because it shakes up our "secure" site-running methods, but because it makes things tedious.

That's all. It makes things tedious. Motoring back to the wormhole in a capital ship every time we want to find something to do isn't good gameplay. It's tedium. It's waiting. it's mining. However often it will lead to fights, there will be a thousand more times it just adds five minutes to an otherwise simple and quick procedure.

Fozzie, I have a challenge for you. Take a few devs into some unoccupied corner of w-space after the patch. Go find something to do. Seriously. Start from a C5 with a C5 static and go find other players, or a k-link, or something more interesting than open dead space. See how long it takes you with the new rolling mechanics. See how much fun you have scanning down a long chain of nothing. See how far you get before it would take more trouble to get your fleet to that location than it would to start over and move your home system somewhere else.

Because that's what rolling is. We're moving our home system. We're finding a better, more interesting part of space. We will still be able to do that, but my god will it be even more tedious. I don't have unlimited playtime, and wasting it watching a carrier slowly crawl over 10km, or do two unnecessary warps, is not my idea of a good time, and I don't think stopping people from slamming the door as easily is worth that trade-off.

So, Fozzie, come to w-space, and see how much more "fun" this change makes things.
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum
Random Violence.
#1138 - 2014-08-21 17:39:40 UTC
This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
Katerin Archer
Total.
#1139 - 2014-08-21 18:59:34 UTC
Jack Marshal wrote:
This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x



And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up.

so,

Z
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1140 - 2014-08-21 19:04:23 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.


It was pretty clear listening to the w-space CSM town hall that Fozzie thinks this change is one of those "for the good of the game" type of changes. He specifically expressed disapproval of the idea of rolling all the wormholes in a system and sealing it off for farming. So I suspect this change and a couple of others are being patched in specifically to "deal" with that.

The question of course is, at what cost?

Pretty sure the response from lower-class w-space is going to consist of yet more "parking lot" systems with two sigs and 200+ anoms. Oh and the usual nothin' on dscan except zombie sticks and quad stabbed epithals. Yay they didn't nerf PI. Roll

I'll say it again, just make every w-space system have at least one open connection at all times but let players choose their connections. Then take this change out to the trash heap along with the more random/frig/impossible to roll wormhole changes. We want more player control over w-space and more small corp friendly environments with danger and risk that can be tuned to the interests of the corp.

Make rolling holes more integral to w-space, not less.

For example let large PvP corps roll to sov null, npc null, lowsec/FW systems or C4-6 holes.

Let small PvP corps roll to lowsec, C3's & 4's, and FW low.

Indy corps can roll to empty low/high/w-space connections for mining/ratting and dedicated hunters who find them through these connections will have earned their kills. Buff site values for lower class wormholes (esp. C1/2) to compensate for the increased risk of being ganked.

Just let players have more control over their connecting systems not less and this additional freedom will make a lot of folks happy.

My friends with industry characters have already moved to a C1 with a highsec static. My friends who enjoy PVP have a C3 static, so lots of chances for pew pew either from the C3 itself or from the commonplace connections to lowsec through those C3s. Some of this has already been dealt with, hence those two groups moving to have those access points.

Only downside with lowsec lately is the 15 man Ishtar fleets with logi support. What I find hilarious is that's also one of the problems with fights in W-space lately. The last potentially decent fight we spotted turned into a situation where we were again outnumbered, it was to a small fight (5 ships looking for some pew) and the enemy felt they needed to respond with a 10 man Ishtar and Gila fleet. Only difference was it had a triage carrier in support, not 5 Scimitars. At that point it goes from being a challange to being impossible to find a good fight. The FC tells the remainder of the fleet to hang back so only a few ships and pods are lost because what started as close to an even fight turned into being outnumbered (based on a scout with D--scan) 3 to 1 with a logi carrier supporting.

Small corps are already struggling in WH space. I think this change, as of the last time CCP Fozzie spoke of it, is going to be the final nail in our coffin for PVP. If this goes through, yeah, I think it's time to unsub all my accounts. Maybe a wave of 8 sub losses won't mean anything to CCP, but if enough of us do it, maybe some accountant somewhere will say something cause they sure aren't listening to us here.