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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Author
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#161 - 2014-08-06 17:26:54 UTC
Oreamnos Amric wrote:
Surely the way to increase the chance of conflict in w-space is to make it easier to roll a wormhole rather than harder. Yes this means farmers can roll away their own static but they have no control over other groups rage rolling a K162 in their direction. Assuming farming groups don't outnumber combat-ready groups then a greater churn of K162s means more possibility of conflict.

Unless CCPs actual, unstated, goal is to reduce rage-rolling for fights...


I still think the better way to increase fights would be to reduce the spawn distance to 0km for all ships, all jumps, removing the ability to instantly cloak up after jumping. Instead of focusing on catching people during rolling, the focus would be on catching anyone jumping through at any time.

It would make scouting a little more dangerous (which, frankly, it should be), it would have no significant impact on hole-rolling mechanics, and it would mean more small-scale pvp opportunities. What's not to like?
Murashj
Void Geophysics
#162 - 2014-08-06 17:29:28 UTC
blackish person wrote:
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!

I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.

The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):

1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.

The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.

2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.

Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.

Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.

EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.

3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."

Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.

What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.

TL;DR

1. This will stop us from rolling

2. This will stop us from taking fights

3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps

4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(


What he said ↑
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2014-08-06 17:29:43 UTC
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.

I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#164 - 2014-08-06 17:31:18 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.


I think this hits the nail on the head. People rageroll to find content. Give them content a different way. We need to keep people from being able to do this over and over...

People roll WH holes also to provide safety to themselves because they don't want the risk. That is easy solution because WH space is risky and should stay.
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#165 - 2014-08-06 17:32:10 UTC
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#166 - 2014-08-06 17:33:18 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#167 - 2014-08-06 17:33:20 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

They want WH space to be like null.
Zasamael
Enigma farmers
#168 - 2014-08-06 17:33:38 UTC
This is sh&t !!! Those changes will kill small and medium corps&alliance in wh space.
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#169 - 2014-08-06 17:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.


When we find your systems u guys pos up or log out. U just farm . you don't PvP. These changes don't effect you.
DRERZEWERZISH
Councel of Ricks
#170 - 2014-08-06 17:35:01 UTC
Actually this isn't such a bad idea.

Now my larger ships won't be stuck on one side of a wormhole unable to cloak should the need arise.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#171 - 2014-08-06 17:35:10 UTC
Random thought:

drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#172 - 2014-08-06 17:35:53 UTC
I get the sense that CCP really wants more groups to "commit" to going through a hole and all that entails; doubt there will be much retraction from this stated goal.

But the changes to distance is pretty drastic and will have the opposite effect than intended...people simply will go inactive.

This might be a stupid idea but here goes: Keep the changes you propose...but provide a separate and new way to roll holes that does not require jumping through them. Maybe a capital fitted module (insert generic space magic name here) that fits on a Roq that can Roll a hole in 5 to 10 minutes without needing to jump through it?

Just not seeing how both camps can be satisfied here...unless this change is scrapped all together, which probably the best course of action.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2014-08-06 17:36:10 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.


Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try.

So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#174 - 2014-08-06 17:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Let me just summarise.
Large WH corps are against this idea
Medium WH corps are against this idea
Small Wh corps are against this idea
Our WH CSM representative is against this idea
even Bob is against this idea.

Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again???



and whyWhat?

Time to quietly drop this one, some ideas just do not deserve to be saved.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#175 - 2014-08-06 17:37:46 UTC
Querns wrote:
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.

I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.


As CCP themselves state, they don't intend to stick to a design they made 5 years ago if players themselves found a better, more ingenious use for it (barring actual abuse, which this is not or they would have stated that matter-of-factly).

Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back.

Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#176 - 2014-08-06 17:38:41 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Let me just summarise.
Large WH corps are against this idea
Medium WH corps are against this idea
Small Wh corps are against this idea
Our WH CSM representative is against this idea
even Bob is against this idea.

Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again???



and whyWhat?

A large null sec alliance that is not allowed in WH space. Big smile
biz Antollare
The Dark Space Initiative
The Initiative.
#177 - 2014-08-06 17:39:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Querns wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you.

Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.


Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try.

So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us.


You don't deploy caps unless you are running sites. These changes don't effect you.
Traiori
Going Critical
#178 - 2014-08-06 17:39:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Random thought:

drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Blink


We're rich, but that's mostly because we're not stupid enough to lose money in the billions of isk region on a regular basis.

It's faster for us just to burn interceptors and web-warp dreads and such than to use MJU's.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2014-08-06 17:41:22 UTC
Aender Wiggin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.

I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.


As CCP themselves state, they don't intend to stick to a design they made 5 years ago if players themselves found a better, more ingenious use for it (barring actual abuse, which this is not or they would have stated that matter-of-factly).

This is true, but conversely, they are not obligated to support it either. Neither does the time period, protracted as it was, somehow imply that the existing mechanics are sacrosanct. Consider industry -- it lied unchanged for eleven years before they changed it. Wormholes have existed for half that time; they are not inviolate.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Reve Uhad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2014-08-06 17:42:03 UTC
Querns wrote:


I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.


While this is a valid point, and the ability to pick your neighbors is a product of how the mechanic currently works. A lot of the arguments here aren't quoting that as their reason for not wanting this change.

I'm personally way more concerned with the destruction of my ability to find content than my lack of ability to remove content I don't want for one reason or another. I think most of WHS would agree with that.

Big threats in WHS (read good pilots/strong tacticians) can still effectively deter a group closing them out of the chain should the need arise. It's not easy, but it's definitely doable.