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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1421 - 2014-08-26 10:52:10 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space.


Terrorfrodo wrote:
I think this change is intentionally made to effectively kill rage-rolling.


Hell you know what you might be right here with a few more "I think" you could cover most things and then just say "I think this is designed to kill off wormholes"
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1422 - 2014-08-26 10:58:47 UTC
Yeah, I more or less reconsidered on what you quoted there, see my newer post above yours. The impact on rage-rolling and the people who do that as their primary activity is probably greater than I initially thought.

But as I also said, rage-rolling is terrible and in any case something 3-5 people actively do while the rest are either just bored or happy to let their buddies work while they're just waiting to get content spoon-fed to them.

We had this for a couple years, it was sometimes fun, but let's move on and leave it behind now. I'm honestly surprised that so many people shed tears for rage-rolling, something I was sure nobody really enjoys. I guess people are mostly afraid that there will be nothing else to do, but as I pointed out, maybe there will be.

.

Zara Arran
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1423 - 2014-08-26 11:02:37 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
I was the WH roundtable on Fanfest.
I cant speak for Twostep (and I apologize if I understand you wrong, mate), but Im pretty sure with 'new stuff' he meant CONTENT, as in, working POSes, working corp mechanics, new stuff to toy around with, maybe new kinds of sleepers, new sites, I dont know.. something that would WH space exiting again, dedicated PVP WH systems where people would want to go out and WILLINGLY fight, something new to discover.


Personally, I don't think fixing POSes and making corp or even alliance roles work better is not new content. Its fixing stuff or making them less tideous. don't get me wrong, it is a good thing and really needs to happen... New content imho was when they brought out wormholes, the introduction of bounty-system, etc. But I do agree that I would love to see some new stuff.

Winthorp wrote:
They would have clearly discussed this at length in private and i am sure Corbexx has had a lot of time and effort putting the views forward to CCP Fozzie and other CSM's that we will never know about.

Although I do believe you are right, that Corbexx does all he can to show CCP the impact and implications of certain changes. This does not mean that CCP always listens and copies the CSMs beliefs. Why not? All CSM reps play the game, are part of a group and possibily care more about their groups interest or just don't see the flip side for other type of groups. I think Corbexx tries to represent the entire W-space community, from low to high class wormholers, but this is hard for CCP to judge. Especially because the former CSM rep actually suggested this change as a good idea in the "WH little things"-thread and mybe even during his CSM time... and now apparently a large percentage of W-space is against?! This must be confusing for CCP... also, this is why choosing the correct CSM rep is important: someone with knowledge, with experience, with the time and willingness, someone who is able to look past their own group's needs and view what is best for the game.

TL;DR: eventhough Corbexx represents our views (imo fairly) to CCP in a more direct line of communication, we still should post our views independently. This gives Corbexx the means and backup to show he is not alone in this....
Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1424 - 2014-08-26 11:05:22 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Yeah, I more or less reconsidered on what you quoted there, see my newer post above yours. The impact on rage-rolling and the people who do that as their primary activity is probably greater than I initially thought.

But as I also said, rage-rolling is terrible and in any case something 3-5 people actively do while the rest are either just bored or happy to let their buddies work while they're just waiting to get content spoon-fed to them.

We had this for a couple years, it was sometimes fun, but let's move on and leave it behind now. I'm honestly surprised that so many people shed tears for rage-rolling, something I was sure nobody really enjoys. I guess people are mostly afraid that there w/ill be nothing else to do, but as I pointed out, maybe there will be.


Take this gun,

^====='
||z

And shoot yourself.

We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets.
When this is the case you roll the whole, this is already a boring task and now ccp is making it even more tedious and difficult for everyone smaller entities more specifically.

If you don't understand this simple ******* concept then what ever but the majority of wormhole space does and they also understand why this is such an unnecessary change.

There are so many ways ccp could of gone about changing combat rolling that did not give the side affect of making rage rolling or just normal rolling an added chore.

This is a completely unnecessary change and no matter what everyone in the wh community has said ccp still thinks it is a great idea. Fozzie likes to talk about how he is listening to us but that is flat out bullshit because he openly said in the townhall that this is going to go through regardless.

All of our opinions mean absolutely nout.

So honestly as someone who has lived in wormholes for years pretty much all for pvp related reasons I can say **** this game.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1425 - 2014-08-26 11:16:17 UTC
Van Steiza wrote:
We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets.


Because everyone else does the same and almost all pvp-oriented players are concentrated in a small number of large entities. That means that there is only a relatively small number of systems with pvp-potential and, since everyone closes their chain all the time, only short time-windows to connect to one of those.

If the larger groups were broken up, and pvp-oriented players scattered over more systems, and chains stayed connected longer and with more connections in general (because of more random holes), then the need to rage-roll for finding content may simply not be there anymore.

Now you usually roll until you connect to a single other group you hope to get a fight from. Sometimes by chance a third party joins in. But that's it. You get a fight, or not, then the hole is closed and everyone starts a new chain. But what if the chains became much more interconnected because of less closing and generally more holes, and not two or three big, but instead five or seven or ten smaller groups were connected to each other and shared one complex chain for a whole day? To me that sounds like much more fun, potentially.

And further down the road, when people who are now just farmers, notice that they meet actual small gangs more often and not every proteus they see is just the bait of a 30+ army, then the pool of players who are willing to fight might even grow. (Although I'm under no illusion that w-space is full of people who will never fight, no matter what.)

.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1426 - 2014-08-26 11:27:01 UTC
As corbexx said its not just about rolling for pew, for instance one method of invading someone in a high class wh is to take control of their static during their quiet tz and roll it for capital entrances til you have your force inside, which is already a highly risky and stressful operation without this change, especially in the early stages when it can be just 2-3 people taking huge chances. Seems to me people for this change either just don't care about the people who have made w space what it is and/or have no experience of how wormhole space works in practical use and its a downhill road from here.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1427 - 2014-08-26 11:37:26 UTC
But do you really feel that this method of invading someone is fun? Something that should be preserved for the good of the game?

People do it because they have to and because it works, like people shoot sov strucutres in null wars because they have to – but does anyone like it? EVE history tells us that players will always do what it takes, even if they curse CCP every second of it for making it so boring.

That said, certainly the imbalance of unlimited capitals for the defenders vs. unlimited tedium for the attackers needs to be addressed, with this change now even more than before.

.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1428 - 2014-08-26 11:37:49 UTC
I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously.

According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space.

We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta.Shocked

Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland.

The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted.Evil

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1429 - 2014-08-26 11:49:33 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
But do you really feel that this method of invading someone is fun? Something that should be preserved for the good of the game?

People do it because they have to and because it works, like people shoot sov strucutres in null wars because they have to – but does anyone like it? EVE history tells us that players will always do what it takes, even if they curse CCP every second of it for making it so boring.

That said, certainly the imbalance of unlimited capitals for the defenders vs. unlimited tedium for the attackers needs to be addressed, with this change now even more than before.


That is a whole topic of its own, was just another instance of one of the many negative side effects of the change.
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1430 - 2014-08-26 11:49:49 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously.

According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space.

We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta.Shocked

Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland.

The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted.Evil


Its 4 steps, a leap on the spot, then a supersonic rocket backwards in what this gives us wormholers.

I look forward to spending more time other stuff, Does anybody here think that Fozzie has spent an night/day after work, just rolling holes trying to find SOMETHING?

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Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1431 - 2014-08-26 11:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Glasgow Dunlop
Double post

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1432 - 2014-08-26 12:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously.

According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space.

We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta.Shocked

Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland.

The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted.Evil


Its 4 steps, a leap on the spot, then a supersonic rocket backwards in what this gives us wormholers.

I look forward to spending more time other stuff, Does anybody here think that Fozzie has spent an night/day after work, just rolling holes trying to find SOMETHING?



Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.

Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up.

You have done more damage to player relations and trust than ANY with event previously. Other events show you were misguided, and corrupt. that surprisingly we could live with.

This now shows that all player feedback and response is simply a smokescreen, and has no impact on your decision making process whatsoever unless you are using it to farm for new ideas.

The contempt is simply breathtaking, and THAT is the wider feeling. And that cannot be lived with.

Some may put up with it for a while, Many will not.

Enjoy your achievements, it is a pity they are Neither going to benefit the Players or CCP.

I now need to consider, if I can find anything to do with this game, that ensures I never pay one more cent to your corporation.
Of course that depends if I can have anything to do with EVE whilst suppressing the gag reflex,

Most likely I just won't be bothered to try.

So the obligatory is eve Dying question?

The question has become, does it deserve to live? And do we care either way any more?

I told you you wouldn't like the answer you forced us to realise.

Good luck with your investors, they are probably tired of the spin now too.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1433 - 2014-08-26 12:50:39 UTC
I'll be a couple hours before I can download the patch but I'd very much like to hear initial impressions after some of y'all have had a chance to jump through some holes and/or try to roll them or fight on them.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1434 - 2014-08-26 12:50:44 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.

Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up.

I want it and I'm excited, and people who constantly speak of "we" when spouting their personal opinion, are pathetic :)

.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1435 - 2014-08-26 12:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Terrorfrodo wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.

Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up.

I want it and I'm excited, and people who constantly speak of "we" when spouting their personal opinion, are pathetic :)


What class wormhole, corp history and experience or STFU

Read the bloody forum.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Rahelis
Doomheim
#1436 - 2014-08-26 12:55:18 UTC
I am exited to go back to wh space - due to this patch.


After all the dire threats, hate, scorn in this thread - all this carebear tears are welcome.


CCP lives form ppl whp pay for the game.


The game is their property.


We have no say and are here to pay - accept that or live in agony.


Better adapt and look for new opportunites - life is constant change.


No company gives a **** about customers - do not believe the adverstiment, lads.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1437 - 2014-08-26 12:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rahelis wrote:
I am exited to go back to wh space - due to this patch.


After all the dire threats, hate, scorn in this thread - all this carebear tears are welcome.


CCP lives form ppl whp pay for the game.


The game is their property.


We have no say and are here to pay - accept that or live in agony.


Better adapt and look for new opportunites - life is constant change.


No company gives a **** about customers - do not believe the adverstiment, lads.



Congratulations,

Now explain in simple words how one is meant to reward a company which treats its customers with abject contempt?

And screw the idea of giving a single cent to one who does.

Is that meant to be a business plan?

Right!

By the way, crappy troll, it just gave me the opportunity to explain how I feel to the simple minded.

My choice is simple.

Do I self destruct everything, do I make the effort to move things to HS? Hoping that one day it might be worth coming back to? Or do I just muddle on a little, if I can be bothered, while ensuring, if plex does not cover it, that I never again, contribute one single penny to their profits or survival?

Well done CCP, you say the game is about choices, pity these are the ones you encourage.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1438 - 2014-08-26 13:06:42 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Van Steiza wrote:
We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets.


Because everyone else does the same and almost all pvp-oriented players are concentrated in a small number of large entities. That means that there is only a relatively small number of systems with pvp-potential and, since everyone closes their chain all the time, only short time-windows to connect to one of those.

If the larger groups were broken up, and pvp-oriented players scattered over more systems, and chains stayed connected longer and with more connections in general (because of more random holes), then the need to rage-roll for finding content may simply not be there anymore.

Now you usually roll until you connect to a single other group you hope to get a fight from. Sometimes by chance a third party joins in. But that's it. You get a fight, or not, then the hole is closed and everyone starts a new chain. But what if the chains became much more interconnected because of less closing and generally more holes, and not two or three big, but instead five or seven or ten smaller groups were connected to each other and shared one complex chain for a whole day? To me that sounds like much more fun, potentially.

And further down the road, when people who are now just farmers, notice that they meet actual small gangs more often and not every proteus they see is just the bait of a 30+ army, then the pool of players who are willing to fight might even grow. (Although I'm under no illusion that w-space is full of people who will never fight, no matter what.)


Obviously you have no idea what mass is do you? Having a huge interconnected chain that has many crit holes not allowing much for any pvp lol well just lol.

Again,

Take this gun,

^====='
||z

And shoot yourself.


Please?

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1439 - 2014-08-26 13:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
Right, no more troll feeding go play the game and get some hands-on feedback in here one way or the other. Even if it leaves a sour taste in your mouth at least its something new for the first time in all these years. Hands-on opinions carry more weight. Smile
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#1440 - 2014-08-26 13:12:28 UTC
Ya know, when I see a Lazerhawks or similar wh corp scout pop in to my hole, I run for cover. Because as a small corp, that's the smart thing to do. If I get a cross hole to scary peoples, I can have a scout, and decide if I can roll the hole closed, or at least crit.

Except now doing that will be above my corp's acceptable risk level. Previously, if we messed up, or got lazy with scouting intel, bad things happened. So we learned from those mistakes, and try real hard not to make them again.

Now we have..... uncloseable frigate holes. More random holes. (I get 2 or 3 a day on average, at least, now. How many is "more"? And closing randoms will be a pretty darn rare occurrence for us now. It was risky before. Now it's unacceptably risky.

The first thing I was taught a few years ago when introduced to wh space was " It's not IF your wh ships will get blown up, it's WHEN" Lived by those words ever since. Every once in a while, it happens. I don't take it personally, it's almost always because I messed up or was lazy. And paid for it.

Now I am glad we can fuel the tower and make a reasonable profit from pretty much nothing but PI. WH ops are going to be few and far between for us with these cumulative changes. Too many random factors. No amount of hard work and intelligent gameplay can overcome RNG.

Sorry epicurus, but if you scan through our home in the future, I'm pretty sure you will continue on, because there won't be much going on. I don't take it personally if you or someone like you catches me being dumb and blows me up for it. That's Eve.

I wonder how long the novelty of "burner missions" will keep us playing Eve. The wormhole was already risk laden, but worth it. Now? Rapidly reaching the break over point where we say "not worth it".

*apologizes for no longer providing "content" for others. Blames CCP for forcing this corp decision.

** Make cynos do exactly the same thing. They are an instantaneous transition from one part of space to another after all. Why should they not operate under the same mechanic? I'm betting people would lose their frikkin minds. Apparently WH residents aren't "people"