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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Author
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1441 - 2014-08-26 13:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
And here I thought CCP couldn't be stupid enough to do this.

Screw you.

Wormholes are dead to me.

Genuinly pissed.

Go to hell CCP.

Edit: edited out the capslock, initial rage over, still pissed.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1442 - 2014-08-26 13:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Maduin Shi wrote:
Right, no more troll feeding go play the game and get some hands-on feedback in here one way or the other. Even if it leaves a sour taste in your mouth at least its something new for the first time in all these years. Hands-on opinions carry more weight.


That is taking place, initial impressions are that the spawn range tends to trend towards the higher end and is not influenced in any way in terms of direction of outlet spawn. So nicely random.Evil

Pretty much exactly as expected.
And just as bad.

What silver lining are we hoping to find?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

ImNotAnAlt Lazair
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1443 - 2014-08-26 13:16:17 UTC
CCP is trying to get rid of small corps in wh space by the looks of it. This is great if you have a large alliance I suppose. Way to ruin it for smaller groups
Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1444 - 2014-08-26 13:16:21 UTC
Well I am about to jump my pheonix thru a hole just to see how one of the heaviest dreads lands in terms of range away from the hole.

I will let you know shortly.

Reason I am using the phoenix btw is because a single phoenix and orca is enough to collapse a 3b hole and this is what I normally would use pre patch.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1445 - 2014-08-26 13:17:50 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
And here I thought CCP couldn't be stupid enough to do this.

Screw you.

Wormholes are dead to me.

Genuinly pissed.

Go to hell CCP.

Edit: edited out the capslock, initial rage over, still pissed.



In spite of everything there was still a faint hope that common sense would prevail right till the last moment.
But the moment the server came back after downtime, there could no longer be any doubt as to their contempt of the customer base.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1446 - 2014-08-26 13:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

In spite of everything there was still a faint hope that common sense would prevail right till the last moment.
But the moment the server came back after downtime, there could no longer be any doubt as to their contempt of the customer base.

Man I rob and steal from WH corps non stop and some fights now and then.

WH space is great fun for the rogue element but if you can't change where your WH goes to without being able to protect your ship it's all gone to shiet.

Literally can't afford to brawl a 50 man t3 fleet?
Get out of wormholes.

Yeah they wont be able to crossjump roll you but adapting by fitting speed to ships?
What is CCP smoking, you cant make carriers go fast with ab and mwd?

Ever heard of scram and dualweb?
Anything big enough to roll with go slower than 30 meters/sec.

Thefts aside I have respect for the guys that provide me with fun whereas CCP has none.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1447 - 2014-08-26 13:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Chicken Exroofer wrote:
Ya know, when I see a Lazerhawks or similar wh corp scout pop in to my hole, I run for cover. Because as a small corp, that's the smart thing to do. If I get a cross hole to scary peoples, I can have a scout, and decide if I can roll the hole closed, or at least crit.

Except now doing that will be above my corp's acceptable risk level. Previously, if we messed up, or got lazy with scouting intel, bad things happened. So we learned from those mistakes, and try real hard not to make them again.

Now we have..... uncloseable frigate holes. More random holes. (I get 2 or 3 a day on average, at least, now. How many is "more"? And closing randoms will be a pretty darn rare occurrence for us now. It was risky before. Now it's unacceptably risky.

The first thing I was taught a few years ago when introduced to wh space was " It's not IF your wh ships will get blown up, it's WHEN" Lived by those words ever since. Every once in a while, it happens. I don't take it personally, it's almost always because I messed up or was lazy. And paid for it.

Now I am glad we can fuel the tower and make a reasonable profit from pretty much nothing but PI. WH ops are going to be few and far between for us with these cumulative changes. Too many random factors. No amount of hard work and intelligent gameplay can overcome RNG.

Sorry epicurus, but if you scan through our home in the future, I'm pretty sure you will continue on, because there won't be much going on. I don't take it personally if you or someone like you catches me being dumb and blows me up for it. That's Eve.

I wonder how long the novelty of "burner missions" will keep us playing Eve. The wormhole was already risk laden, but worth it. Now? Rapidly reaching the break over point where we say "not worth it".

*apologizes for no longer providing "content" for others. Blames CCP for forcing this corp decision.

** Make cynos do exactly the same thing. They are an instantaneous transition from one part of space to another after all. Why should they not operate under the same mechanic? I'm betting people would lose their frikkin minds. Apparently WH residents aren't "people"


Nicely written post, and you are so very right, we all suffer with this, large and small alike.
We all are coming to similar conclusions, this will not end well.

In terms of self destructive behaviour, this ranks with the teenage daughter, who sneaks out, and comes back, pregnant, hooked on heroin, with three different STD's to remember things by.

So CCP, do not expect US to bail you out of your self created issues.

We Ain't your family any more.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1448 - 2014-08-26 13:34:06 UTC
It must be that blob mongers love for blobs.

Basically move around with a hugeass group or don't move at all.

That's what they are trying to push eve into.

How about you first spend a few hundreds of millions on servers that can support lag?
Oh wait you don't have them.

Guess what you will have even less when people that kept playing for wormholes drop eve ranks.
You think we will adapt? Yes we will but that doesn't mean we will stay.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1449 - 2014-08-26 13:52:16 UTC
Well I just tested it with a phoenix and the first time I was put out 15km from the hole the second time I was launched 12km off the wormhole.

I have pictures too which I will link later.

It was just me on my lonesome rolling and I had to check the whole chain before I could even think of solo commiting a dread to rolling.

It took me an unnecessary amount of time over 10 mins to secure the static and scan the surrounding wormholes to make sure I was safe enough to roll on my own with a capital considering the need to warp my dread off to a ping and back down.

All together about 15/20 mins including scanning making bookmarks to roll one hole.

Considering alot of corps in wh space are from 2 to 10 people max this is way to much time.

I was doing it as fast as I was able considering there was over 30 sigs in the static, I need a K space for fuel ammo plexes etc and rolling one hole took me that long. After all that time scanning there was no K spaces to speak of so now I have to repeat the process again.

Something that use to take a couple mins at the minimum now takes so long it makes me uninterested in playing.
I have to take way to much into consideration due to the fact I now have to be 10x more carefull about commiting a cap rolling when im alone or with 1 or 2 other due to having to use warp pings.

Me personally I am in a reasonable sized corp so I wont always be alone but this has a HUGE impact on much smaller entities.

The sheer time difference is just ridiculous.

Ahost Gceo
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#1450 - 2014-08-26 13:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahost Gceo
I am exceptionally disappointed CCP. Despite all the valid reasons veterans of w-space gave you for not making the mass based spawn distance change, not to mention the deafening outcry against doing so, you did it anyways.

I had already contemplated leaving w-space because of the time commitment involved which I can no longer support, but this has just made my exodus my first priority because now said commitment has expanded immensely.

Thank you CCP for nothing.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.

Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1451 - 2014-08-26 14:06:07 UTC
Whelp - the changes went through as predicted.

For those of you who are leaving WH space I figured I may aswell let you know you're more than welcome to look us up in Tri - we're WHers in Nullsec.

Man Chitsa would be proud.

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1452 - 2014-08-26 14:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
People will deal with this like they've dealt with everything else. People who quit will be replaced by others more accepting of the change.

The whole "sensor overlay will kill PvP' thing was supposed to be the killing blow for wormholes, and - guess what - it wasn't. Nor will this be.

Granted it affects people's established ways of playing the game, and negatively affects some more than others, but that's what wormholes are about - the unknown. The fact fixed statics, and rage-rolling, etc was ever possible is to be honest a failure on the part of CCP in not designing a system that was robust enough to keep things random. There's very little random about W-space now, which is why (previously at least) people critted or collapsed holes solo with alts just so they could bear with near total safety.

People who wouldn't fight if they saw you are unchanged by this new behaviour, so any argument about lost fights is imo misplaced. Previously if you rolled into someone and they don't want to fight you they would either POS up or log off (no change) or collapse you out - again in relative safety. Now they can't do that, so they either give up bearing for the day if you roll into them - or they fight. Some of them might just risk it, especially if they think you've gone away....

People being able to roll womholes every 60 seconds or so with just themselves and an alt or two while the rest of the corp twiddles their thumbs because they can't even contribute anything of value was always broken. And as for "small corps/one man bands in high class wormholes", why are they entitled to live there without needing to commit anything?

edit: Also - people talking about "rolling on my own" with capitals completely po-faced? If you talked about rolling around in caps in null with no support and why it should be risk free you'd be laughed off the forums, but because it's w-space it should be allowed?
Brutarian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1453 - 2014-08-26 14:23:18 UTC
Dear CCP.

Don´t ask us/me anymore for giving feedback if you plently IGNORE it anyway!

*facepalm*
Firefox4312 Yatolila
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#1454 - 2014-08-26 14:27:47 UTC
This is what I don't understand CCP. When you first propose the changes, people hate the spawning from wormholes at different distances based on mass for various reasons. So instead of removing something that clearly no one likes, you rework it and shove it down throats anyways.

Now look where we are, 20 days after you made this thread, and 79 pages later. You're still getting the same complaints from more and more people. I would hope, you could realize 73 pages of complaints about something is enough of a reason to actually take the community's thoughts into consideration instead of just changing the numbers and forcing everyone to deal with it.

We've been down this road before with Monoclegate already, why venture down the same road of not listening to your player base and making a decision for thousands of people that don't want you to change it? Listen to the community, because we're the ones that pay you. We're the reason CCP still exists after 10+ years of Eve. But making a thread for complaints and criticism, the not listening to a single person in the thread tells us you really don't care if we enjoy the changes or not, and you'd rather change what you think should be changed, when in reality the people don't want you to change it.

Hell, the 4th post in this thread noted everything wrong with this, and that was 20 days ago. Now we're here, and people still don't like the changes.

So here's a word of advise, take into consideration the 73 pages of posts here, soon to be 74 pages and the sheer number of people that dislike these wormhole changes, and stop forcing them on us when no one likes them, and do what the community says.

Even with a 14km max range a dread could spawn from the wormhole, it makes rolling holes for smaller groups nearly impossible because they can't jump it right back, and if it gets caught by a larger group, they can't save it, because they don't have nearly as many numbers. And larger groups can still roll and all that, but it makes it a lot more tedious and annoying for the group to do it.

So, if this was your attempt to make it so small groups could have a chance in wormholes, you kinda screwed them over a lot here.

Quote:
Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most haven’t changed in many years


This was a quote from the dev blog, have you ever wondered that maybe people were happy with the mechanics and that's why they haven't changed for a long time? Because you don't fix what isn't broken, so you should leave the mechanics alone.

Quote:
Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to ‘tame’ and control wormhole mechanics


So let me get this straight, you want to make something in this game 100% random whether you'll lose 0 isk or you'll lose billions of isk? Seriously, why would you want to leave something up to chance? People don't like the notion that if they do something that used to be consistent in the past, and doing it now is going to be a random chance that can screw them over, why would they want to do that?

The rest of the changes, reworking numbers and %s of effects, C4s getting a new static, the scan sigs staying the same, etc.. are good changes. But the mass based spawning is just terrible in of itself. No one really likes it. And those that do for the most part probably don't live in wormholes nor use capitals to roll holes so they know what'd it be like to live with these changes.

So yea, if you want to make wormholes more interesting ccp, stop fixing mechanics that are working perfectly fine, and add something new to the game instead of breaking it. Hell, where's walking in stations? Instead of using the dev time to fix things that aren't broken, why don't you use that time for something people have wanted for a long time since you announced it now? I bet you won't get complaints from the community that you finally made walking in stations possible. I'm still looking forward for it, and so are a lot of others, but I doubt we'll get it if you're time is better used fixing things that the general consensus about is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be changed.

As per usual, doubt any of this will be taken into consideration, because if 73 pages of replies isn't enough for CCP, a single post isn't enough either.

But don't make your community hate you more, even if you intend the best for them, when you're "help" starts to turn into something people find hurtful and not helpful, you're doing something wrong as both a corporation with a responsibility to your customers, and a community of devs with a responsibility to make an enjoyable game for your player base. In the end of it, we pay your salaries, so don't **** off the entire source of where your income comes from, because frankly, that's a really bad idea for any company.
Elana Apgar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1455 - 2014-08-26 14:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Apgar
Well, Hyperion has been deployed and I've had a chance to experience the wormhole jump mass thing.

I STILL HATE IT.

I spawned over 7.5 km away from the wormhole in a WOLF. A WOLF FOZZIE. You know what else spawned 7.2 km from the wormhole? An Impel, which is horrible because these ships are about as fast as a freighter. You might as well remove the polarization timer from the game, because with these new jump mechanics, it won't matter. You're so screwed in any ship at any time.

I also tested a shuttle and a battleship. The shuttle ended up 5.2 km from the wormhole and the battleship ended up 12 km from the wormhole. This change has ELIMINATED content from the game. With this much of variable, you have taken out the ability to use RR Battleship gangs.

This change is terrible/horrible/no good.

Why won't you listen to us? You seem to have no problems listening to incursion runners...
Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1456 - 2014-08-26 14:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
Van Steiza wrote:
Well I just tested it with a phoenix and the first time I was put out 15km from the hole the second time I was launched 12km off the wormhole.

I have pictures too which I will link later.

It was just me on my lonesome rolling and I had to check the whole chain before I could even think of solo commiting a dread to rolling.

It took me an unnecessary amount of time over 10 mins to secure the static and scan the surrounding wormholes to make sure I was safe enough to roll on my own with a capital considering the need to warp my dread off to a ping and back down.

All together about 15/20 mins including scanning making bookmarks to roll one hole.

Considering alot of corps in wh space are from 2 to 10 people max this is way to much time.

I was doing it as fast as I was able considering there was over 30 sigs in the static, I need a K space for fuel ammo plexes etc and rolling one hole took me that long. After all that time scanning there was no K spaces to speak of so now I have to repeat the process again.

Something that use to take a couple mins at the minimum now takes so long it makes me uninterested in playing.
I have to take way to much into consideration due to the fact I now have to be 10x more carefull about commiting a cap rolling when im alone or with 1 or 2 other due to having to use warp pings.

Me personally I am in a reasonable sized corp so I wont always be alone but this has a HUGE impact on much smaller entities.

The sheer time difference is just ridiculous.




I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other.
I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.

Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.

Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.

Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.

Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.

What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.

THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!

I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.

If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.


So I say to you Fozzie:

*snip* Personal attacks, racism, and vulgarity are not allowed. Please show some respect. ~ ISD Decoy
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#1457 - 2014-08-26 14:44:02 UTC
Watching current crossholes right now. Just watched a Noctis come from a C4.

Named "wtswh" Gee I wonder what that stands for?

And yes I am going to let the folks move their stuff out unmolested.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#1458 - 2014-08-26 14:55:34 UTC
I guess on a positive note, I have found that essentially nullified cloaky T3 scouts and blockade runners are about as safe as possible now. It used to be at least a percentage of the time they would land too close to the WH to cloak. But so far now they haven't landed closer than 4k.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1459 - 2014-08-26 15:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I guess on a positive note, I have found that essentially nullified cloaky T3 scouts and blockade runners are about as safe as possible now. It used to be at least a percentage of the time they would land too close to the WH to cloak. But so far now they haven't landed closer than 4k.



Don't tell him, he will frak that over too now.
Give people a chance to move their stuff out first, then it doesn't matter.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Van Steiza
The Primordials
#1460 - 2014-08-26 15:08:58 UTC
I too will allow anyone moving through any chains im connected too to get out if need be.