Wormholes

Even with the updated version of this change it still makes it a lot harder for small corps to exercise hole control (pre-emprive rolling away from an entity that outnumbers you).

Defensive rolling is probably the only mechanic which effectively keeps blobbing tactics from being abused in wormhole space. This is what Fozzie isn't getting. If small corps can't do anything about their connection to a larger hostile entity with reasonable amount of risk then this change is making w-space more like nullsec without cynos.

Even with current mechanics a lot of times there's nothing to be done except POS up and log. But at least there were times when you could drain the connection of a lot of mass or roll it entirely with a reasonable amount of risk if you were fast on the draw. Now with the updated change it still looks like rolling = much greater risk of losing the rolling ship(s) and free killmails for anyone camping the hole.

Most people deal with grids where the mechanics offer free kills by simply not showing up.

I want more small gang fights, but WH corps come in all shapes and sizes... it was hole rolling and mass draining that evened the odds between corps and alliances of different size. Just don't understand why CCP wants to fuq with this mechanic. Unless the idea was initiated by a blue doughnut CSM

Looking at the updated distance vs. mass numbers in the devblog, I can say with absolute certainty that when you're talking about a half billion + isk ship (Orca) or multi-billion ship (Caps), its a deal-breaker, plain and simple, to lose the ship to randomly spawning too far out of jump range.

Yeah recruit sub-cap support, yeah use cheaper battleships, yeah yeah etc. But maybe I just wanna roam with 3 or 4 of my friends and we can't field support to roll a hole away from a hostile system that regularly sees 10-20 dudes log in. Maybe I just want to choose my fights and find another group we're on a more even keel with.

This change is gonna make it a whole lot harder to do that efficiently and with acceptable risk. Its gonna come down to POSing up and logging or accepting the likelihood that we'll get backstab blobbed while scouting other chains and put on the pod express back to empire. I don't pay subscription money for choices like that.

And it really doesn't make a difference if your Orca or cap has an 80% chance or a 50% chance or a 25% chance or x% chance of spawning 6-9 km out of jump range. Unless you're stupid rich you won't be committing anything more than BSs to roll - and BSs take time unless you got 10 - 20 dudes and coordination. That's the very definition of small corp killing changes. Unless you can kill that hole fast you're stuck with it, gg thx for playing logoff at POS and (not) see you tomorrow. Wow really loving that content - not.

If there's even a 10% chance you'll land an Orca or cap 6 - 9 km out of jump range and collapsing the hole, you can bet every isk in your wallet the opposition is gonna have web Loki's and bumping boats on grid and you can kiss those billion isk rolling ships goodbye. I mean WTF, why not just put stargates in wormholes, its effectively the same thing from the decision-making standpoint.

This change combined with all the additional random wormhole connections... I'm just feeling the creep of null-seccing wormhole space. Nullsec is all about having to deal with a static environment that you cannot do anything about. Power projection mechanics can end your tenure in null at any time. You either play (pay) by the rules laid by the sov holders and the large coalitions or you get burned out.

Wormhole space *was* unique because of the ability of players to exercise control over where their w-space home system led to. Its a player-influenced dynamic environment. If anything CCP should be giving us more options to exercise more control over our environment. But Hyperion is gonna turn w-space into a dynamic environment that many if not most players will be unable to do much about. And that to my mind, is not much better than nullsec and is heading in the direction of making w-space like nullsec.

What I wanted to see happen was for there to always be ONE open wormhole exiting to somewhere in New Eden from every w-space system. Just an automated spawn with a connecting K162 and randomly selected if multiple statics or random wormholes are present. That way it would be impossible to completely seal off your system to just farm endlessly. BUT, players would be allowed to INFLUENCE or CHOOSE what systems your w-space system would connect to for the day. THAT is what I wanted, not this.

Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.

Shame that WH space even in higher tiers wormholes will become less welcoming to smaller groups. Shame that CCP is stubborn with mechanics of change (chance and mass based) instead of adding come speed/tactic flavor for sub-caps.


I just hope that if data will prove most of us right CCP will revert change. If we were mostly wrong then it is even better for game. It is me being naive but hope die last.

Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this. that's one way of keeping it below 80.

Actually you can unsub even if you have say 3 or 6 months time left. your account will only go inactive at the end of that timeblock but most importantly as I said in a post that I cant seem to find now, you can give a reason why you are unsubbing. kinda like a vote.

I hope this post was helpfull amd friendly to my fellow forum users and in no way spamming or ranting.

I don't see why people feel the need to rant aimlessly about this change and the lack of response from CCP. Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.

I also agree with the delaying of this change for the record, I feel that with hyperion coming in 5 days and this change not being refined and ready yet that more time should be added for discussion and updating the planned change. It is a very dramatic change that will have rippling effects across the entire wormhole community, such a change should not be taken lightly.

Ok detailed analysis and discussions of this change seem to be too complicated to get a response, if this hits the mark then anyone who is actually interested can go back and read ALL of them, and there are many,

So let's reduce it almost to the point of ad absurdum.

1.Jumping through to close a wormhole, Gives hostile defenders a significant advantage, and Luck is the deciding factor of whether attackers can reduce or increase that.

2.One cannot jump an overwhelming force in due to mass limits, unless one goes all in and closes the hole behind you.
Either Total Victory or Total defeat results, No reinforcements can be brought in by the attacker. Defender can flood the field of combat with ships. Slamming the door in the enemies face is no longer a rational available option

So unless you are attacking a much weaker enemy, then you have just self destructed your fleet. It provides a Massive boost to anyone who has unlimited reinforcements, For example, losec blocks, Nullblocks, when closing a KS Hole, but an unmitigated disaster for small wormhole corps..and anyone else who LIVES in a wormhole.

3. 1 still applies.

4. Mexican standoff results with both determined not to jump through to the defenders side.

So in short, why on earth would one even think to try with this new change? Sure Brave is one thing but playing like an imbecile is quite another.

So please explain how this will benefit PVP in any way, as bashing POS to the ground consistantly, every hour, of every day, seems to be the only PVP it would encourage There would be little else available other than randomly wandering around looking for ganks?

Fighting on the hole will be an activity that becomes a thing of the past and of ancient legend.

So what benefit do we gain for this change that redefines wormhole space?

Actually none, what we gain is tooth grinding tedium!

Who proposed this again?

This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x

My friends with industry characters have already moved to a C1 with a highsec static. My friends who enjoy PVP have a C3 static, so lots of chances for pew pew either from the C3 itself or from the commonplace connections to lowsec through those C3s. Some of this has already been dealt with, hence those two groups moving to have those access points.

Only downside with lowsec lately is the 15 man Ishtar fleets with logi support. What I find hilarious is that's also one of the problems with fights in W-space lately. The last potentially decent fight we spotted turned into a situation where we were again outnumbered, it was to a small fight (5 ships looking for some pew) and the enemy felt they needed to respond with a 10 man Ishtar and Gila fleet. Only difference was it had a triage carrier in support, not 5 Scimitars. At that point it goes from being a challange to being impossible to find a good fight. The FC tells the remainder of the fleet to hang back so only a few ships and pods are lost because what started as close to an even fight turned into being outnumbered (based on a scout with D--scan) 3 to 1 with a logi carrier supporting.

Small corps are already struggling in WH space. I think this change, as of the last time CCP Fozzie spoke of it, is going to be the final nail in our coffin for PVP. If this goes through, yeah, I think it's time to unsub all my accounts. Maybe a wave of 8 sub losses won't mean anything to CCP, but if enough of us do it, maybe some accountant somewhere will say something cause they sure aren't listening to us here.