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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

First post First post First post
Author
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1141 - 2014-08-21 19:20:39 UTC
Katerin Archer wrote:
Jack Marshal wrote:
This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x



And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up.

so,

Z

Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.
Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1142 - 2014-08-21 19:27:03 UTC
Jack Marshal wrote:
This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x


I'll put 2b on 30 days after Hyperion is released.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1143 - 2014-08-21 19:27:51 UTC
Jack Marshal wrote:
"Ranting"?

Dear CCP,
Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.[...]


Apparently saying the same thing about hating a change CCP is forcing down our throats has now been redefined as a rant. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this.

I've seen the gratuitous spams removed, all but the original post connected with that spam was left intact. Now I want to see what was so threatening they decided to labet is as a rant and delete the person's post outright. Also, they don't appear to let anyone know if/when a post gets deleted, it's just wiped away, like a 1960s president's mistress, and the issue is "disappeared" from existence.
Katerin Archer
Total.
#1144 - 2014-08-21 23:05:08 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.


Rather than you read the last few posts and post a pointless reply, perform some search next time before claiming that we haven't given any reasoned arguments?
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum
Random Violence.
#1145 - 2014-08-21 23:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Marshal
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Katerin Archer wrote:
Jack Marshal wrote:
This maybe considered a bit of a troll

but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.

Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous

X up ....


wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x



And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up.

so,

Z

Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.




We have been, and I have, roll back and start reading the forums
Its called Sarcasm (ill simplify it for you)
The point i was actual making was that after post after post of
reasons why, in an easy to read format stating the problem, not only by me
but many many others. Yet Fozzie still forces this ******** feature on his little pod cast.

BTW whats your main toon, This is mine and i don't bother to hide using alts.
Man up, (even if you are a chick)
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1146 - 2014-08-21 23:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Jack Marshal wrote:
"Ranting"?

Dear CCP,
Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.[...]


Apparently saying the same thing about hating a change CCP is forcing down our throats has now been redefined as a rant. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this.

I've seen the gratuitous spams removed, all but the original post connected with that spam was left intact. Now I want to see what was so threatening they decided to labet is as a rant and delete the person's post outright. Also, they don't appear to let anyone know if/when a post gets deleted, it's just wiped away, like a 1960s president's mistress, and the issue is "disappeared" from existence.

My post was deleted outright, not sure if thats the one you are referring to. I merely suggested that unsubbing with clear and concise reason (that little box they give you when you unsub) would be a good last-resort kind of indication to CCP that we are not happy with this proposed change as it seems that our feedback is not being received in the severity it is intended in this thread.

Especially with the Somer thing I bet a lot of people are going to be unsubbing over that (kinda ******** but gambling addiction is an actual thing) so we need to make sure that CCP gets a clear number of WH players not happy with this change.

ps I'm trying to be as clear, concise and friendly in this post so as not to break the same forum rules again.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1147 - 2014-08-22 00:28:14 UTC
Katerin Archer wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.


Rather than you read the last few posts and post a pointless reply, perform some search next time before claiming that we haven't given any reasoned arguments?

I'm not stating you didn't give a reasoned argument. I'm asking that you not try to create spam in the form of folks posting a single letter like it's an "X up for fleet" response where this is a forum, not some chat channel.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1148 - 2014-08-22 00:39:06 UTC
Jack Marshal wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:

Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.




We have been, and I have, roll back and start reading the forums
Its called Sarcasm (ill simplify it for you)
The point i was actual making was that after post after post of
reasons why, in an easy to read format stating the problem, not only by me
but many many others. Yet Fozzie still forces this ******** feature on his little pod cast.

BTW whats your main toon, This is mine and i don't bother to hide using alts.
Man up, (even if you are a chick)

Apparently I'm not the only one with issues reading. This is a forum thread, not a chat channel, and enough posts in the form of spam were deleted already. I've been posting in this thread for quite a while now. I've read every post on every page, relevant or not. I am not the one you should be arguing with, but I guess it's your only option as the real target of our anathema hasn't responded since page 27

Main character or not. I'm here because I have a stake in this conversation. That's not the issue here. Your taking something personally because I chose to remind you, and someone else, that this thread needs something other than invitations to spam. In case you missed the ISD's deletions of other strings of posts, we're being censored, so we're losing pages because someone isn't able to behave with a modicum of control. If I have to say it twice, to both parties who are asking for others to spam, am I the one unable to read and comprehend?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1149 - 2014-08-22 13:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-hyperion?_ga=1.235259265.1420432876.1406240670
Well, what can be said.

We discovered it hidden on sisi,
Really strong feedback that was detailed and rational. Some of it was by really respected wormhole players and corps.
Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.

Fozzie made a cosmetic polish which took no account of the requests and detailed concerns.

Now announced in patch notes with no contact in the feedback thread since the 16th.

So that is the system working?Cry

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Winthorp
#1150 - 2014-08-22 13:35:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.


Yeah it was not "universal" at all.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1151 - 2014-08-22 13:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.


Yeah it was not "universal" at all.



Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot.

I did not include nullsec either, as they would not expect us to put our opinions on changes to sovereignty or jump ranges etc. which is strange really, as they are the sole beneficiary.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Winthorp
#1152 - 2014-08-22 14:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.


Yeah it was not "universal" at all.



Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot.
.


Yeah it was only me.... Roll Sigh..

Please continue going full ******.

No wonder with the quality posting you guys did on this continually repeating yourselves on how they shouldnt do it because it will stop you doing X and we have always done Y and we should also be allowed to do Z, you just don't understand CCP.

This thread is literally 60 pages of WH people whining that they didn't get their own way in a game they should be stoked that the devs even take as much time as they do to communicate with us.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1153 - 2014-08-22 15:18:47 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Yeah it was only me.... Roll Sigh..

Please continue going full ******.

No wonder with the quality posting you guys did on this continually repeating yourselves on how they shouldnt do it because it will stop you doing X and we have always done Y and we should also be allowed to do Z, you just don't understand CCP.

This thread is literally 60 pages of WH people whining that they didn't get their own way in a game they should be stoked that the devs even take as much time as they do to communicate with us.

I'm sure when gates in 0.0 have polarization and cynos give a mass based random chance for scatter placing your fleet of supers out of position of each other the Null crowd will have a 500 page thread of tears. In the meantime, please don't bother commenting on a sector of space you just visit briefly on the way back to your hovels out in the big blue donut. Unlike in Nullsec, most everyone in WH space is actively trying to kill you, not just exact tolls to cover Sov bills in exchange for blue status.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1154 - 2014-08-22 15:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.


Yeah it was not "universal" at all.



Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot.
.


Yeah it was only me.... Roll Sigh..

Please continue going full ******.

No wonder with the quality posting you guys did on this continually repeating yourselves on how they shouldnt do it because it will stop you doing X and we have always done Y and we should also be allowed to do Z, you just don't understand CCP.

This thread is literally 60 pages of WH people whining that they didn't get their own way in a game they should be stoked that the devs even take as much time as they do to communicate with us.



Of course, you have the right to ignore the full discourse and explanations as to the concerns and issues, I am sure you would not require the full reasoning in EVERY post, as that would make this thread a little long. Suffice to say they have been explained.

Funnily enough, our expectations of CCP is that they DO not ignore the full discourse and explanations.
But it seems they are following your example.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#1155 - 2014-08-22 15:54:31 UTC
Time spent communicating bad news is still bad news received.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome

Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1156 - 2014-08-22 17:09:45 UTC
I do find it interesting that, outside of collapsing wormholes, I never expected an Orca to have any function that involved leaving the shields of a POS. More important, I never saw much point in having one because it was a 3/4 billion ISK door closer. I lived in a C3 for 18 months, and lost several battleships while trying to close holes so "safe" activities would be performed. The relative risk versus reward for me caused a lot of logging off to wait for things to close from time instead of forcing them closed with mass. Otherwise I just see more situations where suddenly there are large gank fleets hunting the small crew we had living there, as the WH sites didn't support many people.

C3s are like the superhighways of the lower class WH system, and its not uncommon to have logged into a mess of 6 wormholes open and active, none near End of Life. There is no way a small corp can place enough tripwires on all those holes and still have anything close to safe site running. So while trying to roll those holes to mitigate some of the risk, ships were lost. It's just part of the game. Rather than try, its easier to log out and wait. This means other games just became useful to play in the downtime, and EVE hits the back burner yet again.

Recent I moved a character from that C3 into a C5. That lifestyle is vastly different than my C3 experience was. I'm not risking a billion ISK ship solo. We, as a fleet, are risking 50 billion ISK worth of ships. Do you think closing all the wormholes makes a lot more sense in that case? As a rule, no capitals leave a POS unless we are a) are running sites with a system that has been secured, or b) trying to defend our WH from siege.

One dread does get used as part of the rolling group if the scouts deem that activity safe, but the current changes are going to force longer waits to roll holes, longer times rolling holes, and near suicidal risk when doing that activity for a dread should things go amiss. More than one time we encountered someone hiding a cloaked dictor by the hole, waiting to snag our dread.

With the changes as they are stated, we will have to wait until our entire fleet is available to roll these same holes using battleships, and in not an insignificant number of cases one pilot will be left behind on the wrong side of the hole due to the mass variance. That was the main reason for using a battleship, orca, and dreadnought. This change, using lower mass ships, results in a higher loss of ships on the wrong side of those holes just by virtue of random luck, and in many cases the ship and pilot's pod will be destroyed attempting to return to either highsec or the wormhole. This removes a pilot and ship from the wormhole for later use even if they do survive being stranded.

Does CCP expect all wormhole pilots to have extra accounts going to ensure we have enough alts to roll these holes, lose the prescribed random number of ships, and then try to go on with business as usual? I know some folks who will still live in wormholes after these changes. But most are wealthy enough to absorb such losses without much care. Losing even a few T1 battleships and low value pilots' pods would be nothing compared with the earning from a few hours of site running. But some folks don't have multiple billions set aside for a rainy day.
Siliya
House of Tyrell
#1157 - 2014-08-22 17:31:50 UTC
Honestly why did CCP not just tell us that the "Requested" feedback would be ignored ... it would have saved us so much time and effort

don't give us the illusion of limited control, that's one of the best ways to **** off your consumers

also has anyone else drawn the conclusion about the recent DDoS Attacks ?
it seems pretty logical that they are in protest to the wormhole changes

I'm still amazed that in the beginning of the town hall meeting someone asked again "Why don't you do this to Cyno's" and he was hushed up and the question was ignored

so far the Wormhole CSM has either
A) not done his job properly and flat ignored the player base that is screaming about this change
B) is being screwed just like the res of us

Id like to believe its B but from the Lack of communication I'm inclined to believe its A

apparently people have been Sold on the fact that "some people in wormholes want this" I find this questionable since the only groups that could POSSIBLY benefit from this are Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks or some of the other massive Wormhole groups, and even they have stepped up and said they don't want this, I personally believe we are being fed a big bowl of troll soup by CCP on this issue, the only thing I cannot figure out is who is doing the pooping (since it rolls downhill), the CSM, or Fozzie

we as a community have said repeatedly "We don't want this" my opinion is that you as a company have said "We don't want you" with your lack of Communication and blatant disregard for the Community desires or feedback

oh look you modified the distance ..yay ... as has been said before 20,14,10 its all the same thing at that point when it comes to caps or Orcas, you've tried to fix an open artery with a bandied and everyone in the community sees it for what it really is .. an insult

This game is Touted as skill and ability based .. this level of RNG has no place in this game

There have been many challenges for you to come live in a hole and try to live with these changes and I personally don't believe you have the huts-pah to do it

Just as I was writing this post we had to combat close a hole in the face of an overwhelming force from Aztec Inc. there was some pew pew but no losses ... if this was post patch ... when we saw them coming we would more than likely just have PoS'ed up and gone to play WoT or Minecraft for the rest of the day and there would have been no engagement at all.. and yes we had plenty of time to do so

if that is what CCP Believes is for the "Good of the game" then I must again question their level of intelligence when it comes to running a game






Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1158 - 2014-08-22 18:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
LT Alter wrote:

My friends with industry characters have already moved to a C1 with a highsec static. My friends who enjoy PVP have a C3 static, so lots of chances for pew pew either from the C3 itself or from the commonplace connections to lowsec through those C3s. Some of this has already been dealt with, hence those two groups moving to have those access points.

Only downside with lowsec lately is the 15 man Ishtar fleets with logi support. What I find hilarious is that's also one of the problems with fights in W-space lately. The last potentially decent fight we spotted turned into a situation where we were again outnumbered, it was to a small fight (5 ships looking for some pew) and the enemy felt they needed to respond with a 10 man Ishtar and Gila fleet. Only difference was it had a triage carrier in support, not 5 Scimitars. At that point it goes from being a challange to being impossible to find a good fight. The FC tells the remainder of the fleet to hang back so only a few ships and pods are lost because what started as close to an even fight turned into being outnumbered (based on a scout with D--scan) 3 to 1 with a logi carrier supporting.

Small corps are already struggling in WH space. I think this change, as of the last time CCP Fozzie spoke of it, is going to be the final nail in our coffin for PVP. If this goes through, yeah, I think it's time to unsub all my accounts. Maybe a wave of 8 sub losses won't mean anything to CCP, but if enough of us do it, maybe some accountant somewhere will say something cause they sure aren't listening to us here.


It is going to be another nail in the coffin for small corps and small gang PvP when fighting outnumbered. I'm confident the metrics will show, after this change, that only the wealthy C5/6 entities will be rolling holes since they can defend their rolling ships.

For the rest of us, its already hard to justify sending orcas or caps to roll or drain mass out of a hostile connection. Yet it has to be done to avoid getting blobbed and force an even fight with a larger entity. You need to pre-emptively crit the hole at least, or roll it. But why even try to combat roll with a small gang after this change when there's a good chance you're only gonna lose expensive rolling ships with nothing to show for it?

I guess if our opinions don't matter we're gonna end up spinning ships in the POS shield a whole lot more often.

And YES, Ishtar blobbing will dominate w-space PvP to an unprecedented degree. Even more than now.

Let's see:
Cruiser mass ship with battleship DPS, check.
No need to worry about the hole getting critted or combat rolled, check.
No need to worry about getting stranded from behind by rolling, check.
No real hard counters except another, bigger Ishtar blob, check.
Now just add a coupla bump stabbers and web Lokis and catch poor sods in rolling caps and orcas who didn't read the dev blogs. Risk free if they get "unlucky". EZ kills, don't even need to jump through after them anymore. Check and check.
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum
Random Violence.
#1159 - 2014-08-22 19:33:49 UTC
Ok well, Thats it

1158 Posts Later
Large alliance's have posted this is a terrible
Town hall meetings saying its bad
Rants on the Tournament about wormhole space
CSM's not being listened Especially the WH CSM (he has a job for a reason)

Well My group is moving out, Thanks Fozzy.
Were too big to move to a smaller wormhole
Were to small to move in to K-space.

If your a smaller groups understand you will not be able to roll your holes to get your stuff out
you will not be able to roll your holes to get stuff in.

We cant afford a Cap replacement of pimp fit Carriers and dreads to throw away, we cant afford that when we cant
roll holes to make money. We cant do anything a reasonable rational person would put at risk.
we will no longer be able to defend our hole if were out numbered and we always are.
We will have no game content when we can not find something to do.

You sir (Fozzie), have chosen to ignore everyone. Now its a simple
lets wait and see what happens. The fact is
They will not admit it was bad Idea now, even with the numbers come out in 30 days
what makes you think they will listen then. Openly admitting that this a terrible idea, is not a CCP norm.

Sorry guys, looks like the end of the line for me.
We will see in 30 days after this is forced through.
I know they wont revert it, and frankly WH space doesnt play
enough in to their numbers for them to obviously listen.

I really enjoyed eve since 2009. I don't want to F1 in nullsec.
I enjoyed the great fights. No Holes, Aztec, LazerHawks you guys Do your thing enjoy have fun with
Rage rolling becoming even more time consuming and tedious. I think more hours spent
attempting to roll a hole is considered game content by Fozzie.
Great job we had a good time, even though you rolled over us like a baby in the street with a steam roller.
Any Fight that doesn't consist of me getting hot dropped by suppers is a good fight now a days.

I will look forward to CCP posting historical numbers, of cause and effect of this patch
but they will not. It is a true shame.

Well Everything that has been said by some of the greatest subject matter experts in the game
in wormhole space, the largest and most successful WH allainces and corps have said No.
As these Groups conduct their exodus, so will we, some of the departures are posted some are not.
I ran in to a corp today, as we were racing to combat close a worm hole me and +2 guys, as the pile of t-3's and logie
with hate flavored ice cream landed on us, allowing us to have something to do later besides spin in a POS.
My scout was cut off in the adjacent system, I spoke with them, the corp watching about the changes
They said it will end their way of life. we spoke for about a half hour and we went on our separate ways such as
wormhole life is or was.

No you cant have my stuff and if after 30 days this patch is not reverted, can i get my money back on my subscriptions?

Thanks for not listening to not only me but an entire community.

For you pilots going to fight the good, fight keep it up, Fly Dangerous and kill something

I believe I will probably find some thing else to occupy my time, something fun.
Its not a big deal 10-20 pilots, and maybe 80 toons leaving, but hay when its no
fun anymore. We will see what happens in 30 days, no i don't speak for all the people i fly with
but yea that is the feeling across the board with my guys, were tired of K-space.

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#1160 - 2014-08-22 19:39:19 UTC
Siliya wrote:


I'm still amazed that in the beginning of the town hall meeting someone asked again "Why don't you do this to Cyno's" and he was hushed up and the question was ignored



I listened to that -- it made me wonder if Dinsdale was right all along.


Siliya wrote:

so far the Wormhole CSM has either
A) not done his job properly and flat ignored the player base that is screaming about this change
B) is being screwed just like the res of us

Id like to believe its B but from the Lack of communication I'm inclined to believe its A


I like Corbexx, I think he has the right ideas when it comes to w-space and is trying to understand lower class WH life better, but ultimately he's only a CSM. No real decision-making authority.


Siliya wrote:

Apparently people have been Sold on the fact that "some people in wormholes want this" I find this questionable since the only groups that could POSSIBLY benefit from this are Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks or some of the other massive Wormhole groups, and even they have stepped up and said they don't want this, I personally believe we are being fed a big bowl of troll soup by CCP on this issue, the only thing I cannot figure out is who is doing the pooping (since it rolls downhill), the CSM, or Fozzie.


I don't have experience with C5/6 life, but from what I can see on the outside there could be a bandwagon effect, i.e. ppl joining HK, LH, or NoHo to become one with the blob rather than resist the changes. In the long run I don't think those folks will benefit. For sure it will be much harder/tedious to roll holes to secure a C5/6 for cap escalations, and engagements on nullsec holes will be more difficult to control if things escalate and its time to roll away. Null PvP may lose attractiveness depending on what ship & pod has to be "possibly sacrificed" to regain system control, and the finances of the WH entity.

The only REAL beneficiaries that I can see are nullbears, for obvious reasons.