Wormholes

Good to know on the rates. Ive lived in C6 so I know, but I can tell we were capable of farming it all in single day :D but that depends if you feel brave enough to re-farm or just hope for new spawns.


Also +1 on the mass variation. I mentioned that before too. ANd id give that to all wormholes. Its too predictable.

In the spirit of good fun and reasonable-ness, I've created a list of things I'd rather do outside of eve than hang out in w-space after this change:
1. Go to a catholic mass... those things are long.
2. Pick a fight with a professional boxer.
3. Have cancer. Too far, or not too far enough?

No but really, I'm glad you crafted an elegant dev blog after your community told you that you were way off base.

I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction

I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).

To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.

The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.

edit: spelling correction

What you are asking for is greater risk for the potential of zero reward. Running sites in a wormhole isn't like ratting in nullsec. The ISk doesn't just magically appear in my wallet. If the loot doesn't get collected and make it to highsec, there is no income, no POS fuel, and therefore no POS or lifestyle in the W-space anymore. What you are telling us is that generating income need to exponentially increase the risk in a wormhole, without any increase in reward. Yes, that seems fair and reasonable. This means you advocate players leaving W-space for K-space and the (relative) stability it provides. Thanks for making that clear. Now go back to your NPC station, sit in it and spin. You obviously know nothing of the challenges of living without that NPC teat to suckle.

20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice.

So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad.

Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts.