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New industry skills discussion (connected to Advanced Industry)

First post First post First post
Author
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-07-27 21:00:03 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
Here it is Sheeana.



Thank you.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#122 - 2014-07-28 14:11:52 UTC
Hrmp. A mandatory skill everyone who ever made a little ammo for personal usage had to have at 5 gets changed to a time bonus skill ... To be frank I would have preferred to get that SP in green as with just 3% per level speed bonus it is kind of pointless to take that skill to 5 unless you are really hardcore industrialist.

So that leaves one with a hard decision on how to justify such skill at 5 that would be just fine at 4 for most people. If you introduce additional skills that are actually useful and need this at 5 you end up with the old situation where you need to have that skill at 5 to participate in industry in meaningful way. Because it's a prerequisite for something actually useful. If you throw in there a small amount of relatively useless skills it does not justify having that skill at 5 after such a serious change to it. Ohwell - ofcource I have some skill ideas (some are already mentioned in the previous pages as well)

(*) NPC tax reduction (do note than your standings should also count, same as they do when you do market orders). I would leave tax reduction from standings slightly larger than from skill as +10 standings are very significant grind for most people.
(*) Ability to use teams some amount of jumps away (perhaps at inceased fee and additional skill that lowers that additional fee back towards normal). For example: You can use a team up to 5 jumps away with each jump increasing the team fee additional 20% (at 5 jumps the team fee is double that what it would be in your home system). Additional skill lowering the remote team fee by 10% per level. So you would end up at only 150% at 5 jumps instead of 200% of the team fee at max skill.
(*) Additional manufacturing/research slots (obviously)
(*) Specialized manufacturing skills or changing specific construction skills that they give some additional bonus to T1 manufacturing as well. For example: Battleship construction providing x% per level time bonus to all battleship construction jobs. Similar skills for modules (or specific module groups), anchorables, drones, ammo, etc.
(*) Branding? Is it still in the plans? Some additional modifiers?, say that you can change the base items stats by 1% per level in combination with branding (would make balancing a nightmare ofc). Example: Ballistic Control II - base item has 10.5% ROF and 10% damage bonus. You increase ROF by 5% so the new RoF bonus is 11.025% - if needed you can penalize all other stats by the same percentage as well. Then introduce additional skill to lower these penalties to, say, half of the default. Probably a bit too big undertasking to just add couple new skills ;) But that is how a sandbox manufacturing should work. Give a player pile of points and let him minmax stuff.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#123 - 2014-07-28 15:57:53 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
Here it is Sheeana.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:


So clarifying, material requirement reductions are looked down upon?


Generally speaking, cost reductions can be considered as having a lower probability of being implemented, all other things being equal. Ditto anything which requires significant feature work (eg queueing - that's a feature with a skill attached, not a skill modifying an existing number).

..........





good thing that it wasn't ruled out just things like that are a low probability of happening.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#124 - 2014-07-28 16:08:48 UTC
Maybe CCP Greyscale would be kind enough, to issue a survey on Advanced Industry.

They've gotten a week or more worth of ideas. Now would be a good time to survey the player base and see how they feel about it all.

--
P.S. Sorry about my comment before about people no reading! But, there are a lot of redundant points being made. Which, at least in my history of looking for topics or points, hurts the over all develop.
A simple +1 to ***** skill would awesome.

p.p.s. I'm still not standing for any skills that reduce ME/TE father than they are. . . Though thinking about it. Any specialization skill would need something that helps that player niche the market on that item.
I'd feel much better for "hybrid" skills. Things skilled by the CEO/Directors that effect player corps. A lot of the ideas presented above would work with this. Also, it would help move people from NPC corps, and look for a corp with the play style they want to join in on. Would need a similar system for corps who like focus on the other game "jobs"

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Matcha Mosburger
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-07-28 21:10:25 UTC

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:


So clarifying, material requirement reductions are looked down upon?


Generally speaking, cost reductions can be considered as having a lower probability of being implemented, all other things being equal. Ditto anything which requires significant feature work (eg queueing - that's a feature with a skill attached, not a skill modifying an existing number).

..........




He said ruling out a skill attaching it a feature. I think the consensus is actually - TE skills suck for people not making massive loads or caps.

Sooo - add Production Queueing, period.

Not as a skill based feature, but a strait feature. This suddenly makes ALL the TE skills suggested relevant and useful for all players.
Adunh Slavy
#126 - 2014-07-29 14:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Cronyism - Gives a small standing bonus to NPC corp and/or faction based on what is built and where.

For Instance: Building a raven at a Caldari NPC corp, would give a 0.005% standing increase to that station's owning corporation and the faction. It would also give negative standings to Gallente faction, in this example.

Building a Domi at that same station would give no bonus of any kind.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-07-30 14:27:14 UTC
The volume aspects of Data Sheets needs to be revisited especially in light of cargo reductions and/or fuel costs.

Their current 1.0 m3 is a little out of line when you consider where minerals, most salvage and Reports are on the order of .01m3
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#128 - 2014-07-30 20:16:02 UTC
Matcha Mosburger wrote:

He said ruling out a skill attaching it a feature. I think the consensus is actually - TE skills suck for people not making massive loads or caps.

Sooo - add Production Queueing, period.

Not as a skill based feature, but a strait feature. This suddenly makes ALL the TE skills suggested relevant and useful for all players.


I just realized something which I did not think of before for some reason. With the removal of production efficiency skill (renamed to that adv industry) any character you have is already a perfect builder. Somewhat slower at it than your previous "perfect builder" but hey, who cares. You can now trump quality with quantity.

Granted if you already had all 3 slots per account trained up to be good builders it will not do a lot for you (because adv industry is kinda meh) but because of the limitation of slots it might have not made sense previously in many locations / situations. Now, however, just push them to 10 slots each.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#129 - 2014-07-31 12:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rapscallion Jones
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

The Advanced Industry skill has been updated to give 3%/level reduction to all industry jobs (ie anything you can do in the industry window, not just building); this should be rolled out to TQ in the next week or so.

This should give *most* people a decent amount of value, but we'd like to give it some additional oomf. We are therefore planning on adding some more advanced industrial skills with AI at 5 as a prereq, so there's clear benefit to everyone in having it trained (plus it would be nice to have some more skills).

We're expecting this discussion to evolve over the coming weeks as the new system settles down and people figure out what bonuses they'd find most valuable. We'd be looking at shipping these changes in one of the two following scheduled releases, depending on how this discussion goes.

So... discuss! What sorts of advanced industry skills would be good?

-Greyscale

**Sticky** - ISD Cyberdyne


Let's face it, the majority of us are not neckbeards living in mom's basement glued to EVE 24/7. Most jobs do not last even a 24 hour cycle so we generally lose game time due to the realities of real life. We have a skill queue, why not a jobs queue.

How about a skill and an advanced skill that at lvl 5/5 grant a jobs queue equal to the max jobs you can have installed. This would not grant additional jobs only a queue. So maxed out you could have 11 jobs running and 11 jobs queued up.

This could have both Science and Manufacturing application.
iwannadig
Doomheim
#130 - 2014-07-31 19:02:59 UTC
You removed region boundary for remote job control and this is cool.
Now I would like to see a skill that allows players to see market orders +5 systems farther per level.

Also I would like to see manufacturing/science jobs count hardwiring.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#131 - 2014-08-01 03:51:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The Advanced Industry skill has been updated to give 3%/level reduction to all industry jobs (ie anything you can do in the industry window, not just building)....

This should give *most* people a decent amount of value, but we'd like to give it some additional oomf.

Actually, as someone who already has this skill at level 5 on my industry main, I think this update is sufficient and needs no further oomf. Thanks, btw.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We are therefore planning on adding some more advanced industrial skills with AI at 5 as a prereq, so there's clear benefit to everyone in having it trained (plus it would be nice to have some more skills).

While I do not personally object to this idea, on behalf of the younger players, I'll say this:

Please keep in mind that adding more skills always further increases the performance gap between older players and younger players, and makes it difficult, if not impossible, for the younger players to catch up and become competitive. This situation tends to discourage attracting new players to the game, too.

It is also very frustrating for younger players, who have to rejuggle their skill queues and attribute mappings, to optimally accommodate the new skills in their training plan. Remember, too, that players only get once-per-year remaps, after the initial ones are used up, and you can't buy them for ISK, nor using PLEX.

Older players, like me, don't have much else to train, so we can just slap the new skills in the queue and be done with them in shortest possible time to further improve our advantage over the younger players. Works out fine for me, but it isn't really fair.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#132 - 2014-08-01 18:11:19 UTC
Removed a rumor post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#133 - 2014-08-02 04:22:41 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed a rumor post.


You know when "rumors" start to get removed they are most likely true. *tinfoils* Tons of rumors get posted all the time :P whatever it was gets quickly removed :P
Orin Zhu
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-08-02 09:39:34 UTC
Quoted from a reddit thread :

"We dont want any rough barriers to entry for industry so we've murdered ME behind the wood shed."
"Hey guys, we're adding an entire new skill tree with AI-V as a prereq!"
Emiko Rowna
Keys To The Stars
#135 - 2014-08-05 05:52:14 UTC
Shin Dari wrote:

I am just going to throw out whatever comes to mind, be prepared for some really bad ideas.

...

* Navy Infrigement [small chance to invent a navy faction BPC during T2 invention]

...





Can we find a way to tie standings into this?
Anthar Thebess
#136 - 2014-08-05 07:52:11 UTC
I'm not industrialist, but will this not make more supers produced faster?
Do we really need this?

Why we cannot make this skill bonus something else than speed of new supers introduced into the game.
If you relay want to make it affect production time.

1 item produced = no bonus
2 or more items produced = 3% * skill level to Time Efficiency.

This way the stuff that is bad to this game will not be produced much more faster.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#137 - 2014-08-05 14:32:52 UTC
Orin Zhu wrote:
Quoted from a reddit thread :

"We dont want any rough barriers to entry for industry so we've murdered ME behind the wood shed."
"Hey guys, we're adding an entire new skill tree with AI-V as a prereq!"



Material Efficiency (skill) was pretty much a barrier to doing any industry.

I don't see them adding skills which will be required in the same fashion, for doing basic T1 industry.

Greyscale did pretty much say that there would be no ME reductions from skill, for example.

TE reductions aren't required in the same way. you can make the same things, just slower, without it.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#138 - 2014-08-05 14:37:10 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I'm not industrialist, but will this not make more supers produced faster?
Do we really need this?

Why we cannot make this skill bonus something else than speed of new supers introduced into the game.
If you relay want to make it affect production time.

1 item produced = no bonus
2 or more items produced = 3% * skill level to Time Efficiency.

This way the stuff that is bad to this game will not be produced much more faster.



Just to clarify what the AI skill does.

It doesn't add to the blueprint's TE. It multiplies against it.

So at max levels, it's not a 35% reduction. It's a 32% reduction. Addition reductions (from POS arrays, for example) multiply in as well, so the 25% reduction of a POS doesn't make it a 60% reduction. It makes it a 49% reduction.

Of course, you already have the 20% reduction from Industry, so that takes it to a 59% reduction, rather than a 80% reduction.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#139 - 2014-08-05 18:16:12 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Orin Zhu wrote:
Quoted from a reddit thread :

"We dont want any rough barriers to entry for industry so we've murdered ME behind the wood shed."
"Hey guys, we're adding an entire new skill tree with AI-V as a prereq!"



Material Efficiency (skill) was pretty much a barrier to doing any industry.

I don't see them adding skills which will be required in the same fashion, for doing basic T1 industry.

Greyscale did pretty much say that there would be no ME reductions from skill, for example.

TE reductions aren't required in the same way. you can make the same things, just slower, without it.



Which is most of the problem and complaints now. It was a skill you needed at 5 weather you made ammo once a month or if you ran all the slots allowed 24/7.

Now a TE skill doesn't do anything for the guy running a little ammo now and then but it will a really nice boon for those that run all there slots 24/7.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#140 - 2014-08-05 18:29:19 UTC
I'm actually finding it handy for invention.

It's dropping some of the longer runs into a time frame where I can do two per session.

anyway:

Skills which gate basic functionality are bad. (like the learning skills)
Skills which gate advanced functionality are fine.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter