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New industry skills discussion (connected to Advanced Industry)

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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#141 - 2014-08-05 18:36:45 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:


Skills which gate basic functionality are bad. (like the learning skills)
Skills which gate advanced functionality are fine.



no ones really saying its not. just that the learning skills were refunded instead of turned into some other skill.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2014-08-05 19:25:31 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'm actually finding it handy for invention.

It's dropping some of the longer runs into a time frame where I can do two per session.

anyway:

Skills which gate basic functionality are bad. (like the learning skills)
Skills which gate advanced functionality are fine.

I fully agree there, love that it now drops a lot of stuff to under 4 hours.


What of skills that add a free level to bps?
IE
if BP(ME|TE < cap)
New_BP_Research = ME|TE + AI_New_Skill_level * %
return(New_BP_Research )

That way it dovetails well with all the upsetness about perfect BPS being measured in years for some people, while still allowing for a market for researched BPs
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#143 - 2014-08-05 20:18:41 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'm actually finding it handy for invention.

It's dropping some of the longer runs into a time frame where I can do two per session.

anyway:

Skills which gate basic functionality are bad. (like the learning skills)
Skills which gate advanced functionality are fine.

I fully agree there, love that it now drops a lot of stuff to under 4 hours.


What of skills that add a free level to bps?
IE
if BP(ME|TE < cap)
New_BP_Research = ME|TE + AI_New_Skill_level * %
return(New_BP_Research )

That way it dovetails well with all the upsetness about perfect BPS being measured in years for some people, while still allowing for a market for researched BPs



how is this any different than the ME skill? as there are only 10 distinct lvls of ME if it increases by only one ME lv its becomes a required skill for any bp that isn't ME 10.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#144 - 2014-08-06 04:03:25 UTC
I will add my support for a skill (or skills) that lets us queue jobs.

Skills to specialize could be good, but the advantages need to be looked at very closely so that generalists and specialists can still compete somewhat.

Here's an idea:
Rapid manufacturing. Let's you add RAM as an input in return for a much larger time reduction.

Efficient construction: Lets you increase the time to manufacture an item, at the end of the job some materials are refunded.


Concurrent manufacturing:
Let's you install the same blueprint multiple times (so you can have multiple jobs of the same thing going at once). You still can't make more than the number of max runs though.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2014-08-06 07:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Freeman
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I'm actually finding it handy for invention.

It's dropping some of the longer runs into a time frame where I can do two per session.

anyway:

Skills which gate basic functionality are bad. (like the learning skills)
Skills which gate advanced functionality are fine.


I'm not sure that the learning skills gated any functionality. They were just a long train that improved a specific aspect of the game. Specifically they improved the rate at which you gained skillpoints.

There are other similar skills that are a long-ish train that improve specific areas of the game. eg the modified skill that now reduced job times for industry. It simply improves the rate at which you can build/invent/copy/research. The old production efficiency was also simply a sill that improved a specific aspect of the game. If reduced the amount of materials you needed to manufacture something.

None of them actually gate anything.

None of them gate advanced functionality either. They are simply a long train to get to improved performance in some aspect of the game.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#146 - 2014-08-06 09:52:00 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
I will add my support for a skill (or skills) that lets us queue jobs.

Skills to specialize could be good, but the advantages need to be looked at very closely so that generalists and specialists can still compete somewhat.

Here's an idea:
Rapid manufacturing. Let's you add RAM as an input in return for a much larger time reduction.

Efficient construction: Lets you increase the time to manufacture an item, at the end of the job some materials are refunded.


Concurrent manufacturing:
Let's you install the same blueprint multiple times (so you can have multiple jobs of the same thing going at once). You still can't make more than the number of max runs though.

Not sure I like those examples.

Reducing build time at the expense of increased material needs or even isk is fine, but reducing material usage in exchange for increase build time is not something I would support.

Nor could I support the multiple quing of BPC's, (and it would be BPC's, as you can just increase the number of runs from BPO's.) I view the run limitations on BPCs and the need to reinstall jobs manually as an important limiting factor in the industry balanacing process.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#147 - 2014-08-06 10:12:01 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
[quote=Xindi Kraid]

Nor could I support the multiple quing of BPC's, (and it would be BPC's, as you can just increase the number of runs from BPO's.) I view the run limitations on BPCs and the need to reinstall jobs manually as an important limiting factor in the industry balanacing process.

As I said, you shouldn't be able to get more runs out of a blueprint just by queuing it multiple times.
If you have a blueprint with 5 runs, and you install a 3 run job, you can only then install another 2 run job at which point the BPC is used up.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#148 - 2014-08-06 10:29:02 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Nor could I support the multiple quing of BPC's, (and it would be BPC's, as you can just increase the number of runs from BPO's.) I view the run limitations on BPCs and the need to reinstall jobs manually as an important limiting factor in the industry balanacing process.

As I said, you shouldn't be able to get more runs out of a blueprint just by queuing it multiple times.
If you have a blueprint with 5 runs, and you install a 3 run job, you can only then install another 2 run job at which point the BPC is used up.

Yes, but why not just install the full 5 runs in the first place? I see no need to 'stack' jobs in the manner you are suggesting, other than a shortage of materials that could be remedied inbetween runs.

I wouldn't have a problem with materials being used on a 'per run' basis as each run is completed, rather than having all the materials for the build being taken away when the job in installed.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#149 - 2014-08-06 15:01:19 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Nor could I support the multiple quing of BPC's, (and it would be BPC's, as you can just increase the number of runs from BPO's.) I view the run limitations on BPCs and the need to reinstall jobs manually as an important limiting factor in the industry balanacing process.

As I said, you shouldn't be able to get more runs out of a blueprint just by queuing it multiple times.
If you have a blueprint with 5 runs, and you install a 3 run job, you can only then install another 2 run job at which point the BPC is used up.

Yes, but why not just install the full 5 runs in the first place? I see no need to 'stack' jobs in the manner you are suggesting, other than a shortage of materials that could be remedied inbetween runs.

I wouldn't have a problem with materials being used on a 'per run' basis as each run is completed, rather than having all the materials for the build being taken away when the job in installed.

By running multiple jobs at the same time they get done more quickly.

It would be interesting to be able to start a partially filled job and finish stocking it up later.

Maybe we could have a skill for continuous production:
Lets you install a job for a specific duration and at regular intervals (based on the completion time of one item) it will pull materials from the indicated hangar and deliver completed items. If you don't have enough materials installed the job pauses. if the maximum runs have been exhausted the job cancels. Manually canceling the job will have it complete the current item in progress then return the blueprint (canceling a second time will return the print immediately but the material inputs will be lost)
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#150 - 2014-08-06 15:04:22 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Nor could I support the multiple quing of BPC's, (and it would be BPC's, as you can just increase the number of runs from BPO's.) I view the run limitations on BPCs and the need to reinstall jobs manually as an important limiting factor in the industry balanacing process.

As I said, you shouldn't be able to get more runs out of a blueprint just by queuing it multiple times.
If you have a blueprint with 5 runs, and you install a 3 run job, you can only then install another 2 run job at which point the BPC is used up.

Yes, but why not just install the full 5 runs in the first place? I see no need to 'stack' jobs in the manner you are suggesting, other than a shortage of materials that could be remedied inbetween runs.

I wouldn't have a problem with materials being used on a 'per run' basis as each run is completed, rather than having all the materials for the build being taken away when the job in installed.




because of the very reason you stated. or the other solution to the issue that you stated also works.
Selphentine
Pastafaris
#151 - 2014-08-06 22:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Selphentine
Maybe something with some dynamic, maybe based on your activity even? Something like 5% per skill level that a blueprint-copy wont consume on run, dont applies for faction or capital blueprints (ofc)... Or something that maybe includes the hacking-minigame in that order? Depending on the blueprint, starting hacking, success will allow one run without the blueprint getting "consumed", fail will alert the station managers and cause a standing loss to the corp... Mh. From very easy to very hard depending on the blueprint, skills increase virus strength.
This would really need an insane amount of fine balancing, so the copies dont get used that much that it really affects much, but on the other hand, may increase the profit marge for a single person that is willing to risk something... Mh.
Just a direction to think about, nothing that is yet remotly finished.
Maybe some teams from pirate factions could make hacking a bit easier... ;)
Important is ofc that in both cases this wont work with large amounts of runs, neither with too good blueprints.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2014-08-06 23:06:24 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:



how is this any different than the ME skill? as there are only 10 distinct lvls of ME if it increases by only one ME lv its becomes a required skill for any bp that isn't ME 10.

But you can still use a ME 10 bp, and by the same it loses the point if all you have is an ME10

Which is the point really, its a diminishing skill as you have many methods to boost a bpo already, and this one effects only you without giving a the bar is now this high for entry

Sort of like how copper heat sinks over aluminum slow the rise to a thermal shutdown, but do nothing to increase that horrid point.

Where as the old ME skill was adding fresh thermal paste and actively raised the temperature, something that had to be done.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#153 - 2014-08-07 00:32:32 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:



how is this any different than the ME skill? as there are only 10 distinct lvls of ME if it increases by only one ME lv its becomes a required skill for any bp that isn't ME 10.

But you can still use a ME 10 bp, and by the same it loses the point if all you have is an ME10

Which is the point really, its a diminishing skill as you have many methods to boost a bpo already, and this one effects only you without giving a the bar is now this high for entry

Sort of like how copper heat sinks over aluminum slow the rise to a thermal shutdown, but do nothing to increase that horrid point.

Where as the old ME skill was adding fresh thermal paste and actively raised the temperature, something that had to be done.



the complaints Ive seen are alot of OMG it takes xxx long to research this bp to lv 10. This skill just lets them avoid that.


Would it be allowed to work with BPCs?
Judgement Sunwalker
Goblin Wares
#154 - 2014-08-07 03:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Judgement Sunwalker
**(Improved versions of non-meta items)**
(Picture it as 1.5 upgrade)

First off, getting a drop box in Manufacturing for a option to choose. (For Instance, how it's in invention on some ships. EX. Malediction/Crusader)
So, you'll get the option whether to choose between a standard or improved version of a specific item.
If you choose the option of improved quality, you'll need about 5%-10% more materials. (all up to CCP in the end)
Second of all, you need to get the specialist skills to V with the prereq of Advanced Industry V

Skills for Specializations:
Control Tower Specialist (3x or 4x) - Reduces fuel requirement by 2% per level on end production. (1 fuel block less on level 5) *Includes Faction Control Towers
Rig Specialist (1x or 2x) – Reduces drawback by 4% per level on end production. (20% by level 5)
Drone Specialist (1x or 2x) – increases drone hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (5% Hitpoints by level 5)
Ammunition Specialist (1x or 2x) – Increase damage by 1% per level on end production (5 % damage by level 5)

**Note** I will search for more products that may fit with my idea. For more Specialist skills

Examples:
Ammunition Specialist skill

Ex. Antimatter Charge S Improved
Skills - Industry III, Advanced Industry V, Ammunition Specialist V
Materials - Same as right now or + 5%-10%
Outcome - Antimatter Charge S Improved (100)
Stats - Range Bonus -50% Thermal 5.25, Kinetic 7.35

*There will only be 1 variation per different type of ammunition (Ranging from Antimatter – Iron)
**Ammunition specialist well range from any ammunition & charges.
*** The 1 variation well fall in between Standard and Faction in damage wise (If my calculations are correct.) (Tech I(Standard), Improved, Faction, And Tech II)

Rig Specialist Skill

Ex. Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Improved
Skills – Industry III, Advanced Industry V, Rig Specialist V
Materials - Same as right now or + 5%-10%
Outcome – Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Improved
Stats – Kinetic Resist 30% (Same as now) 1%-2% reduced drawback
*So if your Shield Rigging is at V, you'll already be at 5% drawback, So with Rig Specialist skill, you'll be able to reduce it from 1% - 2% more.
** So with this in mind, You'll choose between the Improved variation or Tech II (less drawback or bigger buff)when fitting onto your ship
***So Improved variation falls between Tech I and Tech II ( Tech I, Improved, and Tech II)

Drone Specialist Skill

Ex. Hornet I Improved
Skills – Industry III, Advanced Industry V, Drone Specialist V
Materials – Same as right now or + 5%-10%
Outcome – Hornet I Improved
Stats – (same damage/tracking/falloff/optimal) +5% more Hitpoints
*Hornet I Improved well land between Tech I and Faction drones.

Control Tower Specialist Skill

Ex. Amarr Control Tower Small Improved
Skills – Industry III, Advanced Industry V, Control Tower Specialist V
Materials - Same as right now or + 5%-10%
Outcome – Amarr Control Tower Small Improved
Stats – All the same, but uses less fuel blocks
*This includes Faction Control Towers, since there's blueprints for them.

--End Note--
So the overall idea is for some items to have 3-4 types. Tech I, Improved, Faction, Tech II (or the ones that have just have a Tech I and Faction variations). This does not mean meta levels. (Well somewhat)
This well introduce new ideas to the market, so it doesn't affect existing things too much. (So new items = new possiblish market.)
I like to see all this as how it is with Boosters (Standard, Improved, Strong)
I took out Ship Specialist skill
So I hope all this clears a few things out from my previous post(s)
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#155 - 2014-08-07 21:09:10 UTC
Judgement Sunwalker wrote:
Hello Capsuleers,

This is my first time posting in any forum, so criticize away.
After reading almost every post and reply on this topic. I came to understand most people don't want skills that have to do anything with Reducing Time or Materials for manufacturing things. So I came up with some ideas. Don't know if they're good or bad.

*Note* I understand the restrictions and limitations of my ideas. So be my guess on tweaking the ideas or be inspired to come up with something new.

Control Tower Specialist - Reduces fuel requirement by 2% per level on end production. (1-4 fuel blocks less on level 5) *Includes Faction Control Towers

Rig Specialist – Reduces drawback by 4% per level on end production. (20% by level 5, So it's 1 % less in drawback)

Ship Specialist - Increases ship hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (Not structure hit points only)

Drone Specialist – increases drone hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (5% Hitpoints by level 5)

Ammunition Specialist – Increase damage by 1% per level on end production (5 % damage by level 5)

**Note** I did some calculations, and to me it doesn't sound over powering.
As awesome as it would be to be able to somehow modify the final product (something I have been wanting to be a possibility for a LONG time), it would totally munch the database. Packaged items don't have any extra stats (contents, HP, etc.) so they are much thinner, and they can be stacked.

Being able to modify the stats of an item on production would either
A. require every item to have 5 new versions (one of each level 1-5 in addition to the existing level 0) so they can be delivered packaged, or they would have to remain unpackaged (as packaging purges the extra stuff)
Judgement Sunwalker
Goblin Wares
#156 - 2014-08-07 22:42:10 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Judgement Sunwalker wrote:
Hello Capsuleers,

This is my first time posting in any forum, so criticize away.
After reading almost every post and reply on this topic. I came to understand most people don't want skills that have to do anything with Reducing Time or Materials for manufacturing things. So I came up with some ideas. Don't know if they're good or bad.

*Note* I understand the restrictions and limitations of my ideas. So be my guess on tweaking the ideas or be inspired to come up with something new.

Control Tower Specialist - Reduces fuel requirement by 2% per level on end production. (1-4 fuel blocks less on level 5) *Includes Faction Control Towers

Rig Specialist – Reduces drawback by 4% per level on end production. (20% by level 5, So it's 1 % less in drawback)

Ship Specialist - Increases ship hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (Not structure hit points only)

Drone Specialist – increases drone hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (5% Hitpoints by level 5)

Ammunition Specialist – Increase damage by 1% per level on end production (5 % damage by level 5)

**Note** I did some calculations, and to me it doesn't sound over powering.
As awesome as it would be to be able to somehow modify the final product (something I have been wanting to be a possibility for a LONG time), it would totally munch the database. Packaged items don't have any extra stats (contents, HP, etc.) so they are much thinner, and they can be stacked.

Being able to modify the stats of an item on production would either
A. require every item to have 5 new versions (one of each level 1-5 in addition to the existing level 0) so they can be delivered packaged, or they would have to remain unpackaged (as packaging purges the extra stuff)


I understand the limitations of this idea. And after reading your reply. I think I came up with a possible solution.

As a requirement of having the skill maxed out before producing the item.

Ex. Antimatter Charge S Improved
Skills - Industry I, Ammunition Specialist V
Materials - Same as right now or +/- (5%-10%)
Outcome - Antimatter Charge S Improved (100)
Stats - Range Bonus -50% Thermal 5.25, Kinetic 7.35

Ammunition Specialist being a 1x or 2x skill, So it drops the coming up with 5 new versions to 1, to add already existing ones. (Standard, Improved, Faction,and Tech II)
And of course scaling out the rest of the skills I mentioned.
*Note* I know it does sound a bit ridiculous, but it's kind of like learning all skills necessary to build Tech II ships.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#157 - 2014-08-07 23:58:11 UTC
Judgement Sunwalker wrote:
Hello Capsuleers,

This is my first time posting in any forum, so criticize away.
After reading almost every post and reply on this topic. I came to understand most people don't want skills that have to do anything with Reducing Time or Materials for manufacturing things. So I came up with some ideas. Don't know if they're good or bad.

*Note* I understand the restrictions and limitations of my ideas. So be my guess on tweaking the ideas or be inspired to come up with something new.

Control Tower Specialist - Reduces fuel requirement by 2% per level on end production. (1-4 fuel blocks less on level 5) *Includes Faction Control Towers

Rig Specialist – Reduces drawback by 4% per level on end production. (20% by level 5, So it's 1 % less in drawback)

Ship Specialist - Increases ship hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (Not structure hit points only)

Drone Specialist – increases drone hitpoints by 1% per level on end production. (5% Hitpoints by level 5)

Ammunition Specialist – Increase damage by 1% per level on end production (5 % damage by level 5)

**Note** I did some calculations, and to me it doesn't sound over powering.

What you are asking for basically equates to the ability to create 'meta' items.

As Xindi explained, the way EVE works means you would litteraly have to have a new database entry for every single possible combination of changes made to every single item in the game. In short, your idea alone would mean that the amount of object data needed would be 600% of what it is presently.

It's a fun idea, but completely and utterly impractical.

Also, it does skew balancing a fair bit, because right now the vast majority of stuff can be equated to simplified baselines. When you start moving a few numbers the ramifications later on can be huge.



Oh, and befire I forget, can something be done with Astronautic Engineering please?
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#158 - 2014-08-08 02:24:42 UTC
I am not sure ammo warrants meta levels beyond the current T1, Faction, T2 we have now.
As for ships, I would imagine if we could create meta level ships, the base versions would fall into disuse much the same way lower tier ships did under the old ship tier system. If that happened, then the skills to produce the higher meta ships would end up pretty much becoming a mandatory skill.

I could see this working with most modules though.
For instance have a shield construction ability that lets you build meta shield modules.

EXAMPLE
SHield Construction: prerequisites: Hydromagnetic Physics I, Quantum Physics i, Advanced Industry V
Each level lets you produce the same level meta item.

It would Have to either require more materials (or specialized materials), or be chance based such that higher metas are still more expensive/rarer so as not to break the market (more than it is already, meta 1-2 isn't used much which is a needed fix in and of itself). I like the extra materials option myself, likely some sort of commodity rather than just extra minerals.


Of course there are a couple spots where it breaks down:
1. Stuff like propulsion modules that don't come in every meta level, which leaves some skill levels useless.
2. What to do with level V.

I suppose both problems could be somewhat alleviated if there were also time or materials (probably better the former) bonus attached to each skill level.
For the second problem, I wouldn't mind it if there were some sort of Tech 2 meta item (meta level 6) that could be accessed with level V in the proper skill (I have always thought it would be nice to have meta T2 items. yes we have faction and deadspace items which are higher meta level than T2 (meta 5), but those don't take advantage of T2 specialization skills nor can they use T2 ammo)
Judgement Sunwalker
Goblin Wares
#159 - 2014-08-08 02:25:47 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

What you are asking for basically equates to the ability to create 'meta' items.

As Xindi explained, the way EVE works means you would litteraly have to have a new database entry for every single possible combination of changes made to every single item in the game. In short, your idea alone would mean that the amount of object data needed would be 600% of what it is presently.

It's a fun idea, but completely and utterly impractical.

Also, it does skew balancing a fair bit, because right now the vast majority of stuff can be equated to simplified baselines. When you start moving a few numbers the ramifications later on can be huge.



Oh, and befire I forget, can something be done with Astronautic Engineering please?[/quote]

I explained a bit more, where you don't need to have too many new combinations for every single item. I sorry if it doesn't make too much sense, I half-assed the explanation. So I'm going to re edit the whole post, and add more examples and give more details. So it might take me a couple hours.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#160 - 2014-08-08 15:58:44 UTC
Judgement Sunwalker wrote:
I explained a bit more, where you don't need to have too many new combinations for every single item. I sorry if it doesn't make too much sense, I half-assed the explanation. So I'm going to re edit the whole post, and add more examples and give more details. So it might take me a couple hours.

Ok, so we end up with new 'meta' equivelants for various things, (ammo in this case,) which become the new standard which relegate the baselines to pointlessness.

When was the last time you fitted a T1 module that had a meta alternative?