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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#341 - 2014-07-23 16:14:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

ME (and PE on a minor effect) are to BPC traders what SEO is to search engines.


a scam that will get your site blackholed by google when they find you've been deceiving their users by abusing their algorithm with tricks that gave you more attention than your content deserved?

what a good analogy, im glad we're on the same side of this issue
Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2014-07-23 16:32:11 UTC
I wonder if you can write that crap without bursting out into laughter yourself...
Well, goons, it's not as if anyone would take you guys serious anymore anyways xD
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#343 - 2014-07-23 16:34:44 UTC
Crius is the Google Penguin update of our times
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#344 - 2014-07-23 19:04:16 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Crius is the Google Penguin update of our times


Which makes you...what...The Tammy Faye Baker of our times??

I just had a double hernia operation and don't really need to laugh so I would appreciate you Goons calling honest business folks here scammers to go grab your mirrors and take a hard look at yourselves before shiptoasting.

Feedback thread looks great, about 80% NEGATIVE.

Team spew anyone??

Grade school level BP window?

TRILLIONS in unreimbursed wasted skill training, POS fuel and wasted sub money.

Still trying to find a change that made ANY of this crap worth it for folks heavily invested in Industry....no luck so far.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#345 - 2014-07-23 19:23:24 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Crius is the Google Penguin update of our times


Which makes you...what...The Tammy Faye Baker of our times??

I just had a double hernia operation and don't really need to laugh so I would appreciate you Goons calling honest business folks here scammers to go grab your mirrors and take a hard look at yourselves before shiptoasting.

Feedback thread looks great, about 80% NEGATIVE.

Team spew anyone??

Grade school level BP window?

TRILLIONS in unreimbursed wasted skill training, POS fuel and wasted sub money.

Still trying to find a change that made ANY of this crap worth it for folks heavily invested in Industry....no luck so far.

hey nowhere in this conversation did i imply that scamming was wrong -- just that when you are abusing an informational gap like this you cannot have the expectation that the gap won't be patched out of existence by ccp in an attempt to buttress new user experience and/or the process of generally making the game better

over researched BPO plumage had asymptotically small functional effects and patching it out was the smart thing to do

also way to use the dozen or fewer people posting in this thread as indicative of the whole of the game

the csm is way more representative of the players of the game than eve-o and we all know how you all feel about it (despite not voting)
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#346 - 2014-07-23 19:24:42 UTC
for more examples of an information gap see when ccp patched the contracts window to actually show the lowest price for a thing on contracts instead of whatever dumb default search pattern there was before that artificially increased the perceived minimum price of an item on contract for those who didn't know how the dialog worked
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#347 - 2014-07-23 19:43:09 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
for more examples of an information gap see when ccp patched the contracts window to actually show the lowest price for a thing on contracts instead of whatever dumb default search pattern there was before that artificially increased the perceived minimum price of an item on contract for those who didn't know how the dialog worked



I think the default search pattern is..
(Same as Date-Created - Newest First).. So those 80 are listed first.
Then you can sort those 80 by clicking.

But yes, many people get this wrong as you can flood enough of the same item on contracts and push those cheaper ones back 2-3 pages. And you can even (if you dont have enough to flood contracts) place your orders in a way that makes HIGHER orders appear before cheaper ones.

CCP has never had good "Sorting" on markets, contract, escrow, assets... Better over the years, but never quite to the good stage.

I used to take advantage of contract manipulation a while back on a char... Was sweet, sell an item for 120 mil and then buy the one that the guy put up for 25 mil on contracts.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#348 - 2014-07-23 19:44:13 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
for more examples of an information gap see when ccp patched the contracts window to actually show the lowest price for a thing on contracts instead of whatever dumb default search pattern there was before that artificially increased the perceived minimum price of an item on contract for those who didn't know how the dialog worked



I think the default search pattern is..
(Same as Date-Created - Newest First).. So those 80 are listed first.
Then you can sort those 80 by clicking.

But yes, many people get this wrong as you can flood enough of the same item on contracts and push those cheaper ones back 2-3 pages. And you can even (if you dont have enough to flood contracts) place your orders in a way that makes HIGHER orders appear before cheaper ones.

CCP has never had good "Sorting" on markets, contract, escrow, assets... Better over the years, but never quite to the good stage.

I used to take advantage of contract manipulation a while back on a char... Was sweet, sell an item for 120 mil and then buy the one that the guy put up for 25 mil on contracts.

yeah it used to be a lot worse before but ccp patched it out

i dunno if it's fixed since i stopped using contracts after they shifted deadspace/faction/officer loot to the market though so i can't speak for today
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#349 - 2014-07-23 19:55:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I may be wrong however as I haven't been actively involved in the BPC market.


I have been, a turnover of billions a month on copied BPCs.


ME (and PE on a minor effect) are to BPC traders what SEO is to search engines.

In both cases one could argue it's "sugar", it's something almost intangible... yet it's not.

Positioning an e-commerce shop in the first Google search results page makes it worth millions, being at page 2-3 it's worth a tiny fraction of that.


Likewise my ME 500 Capital Parts BPCs would sell quicker, better and at sensibly higher price than a ME 100 or 200 (*)

I have hundreds of BPOs: freigthers, carriers, all sort of ships from frigs to BS, supercap parts, POS [anything] BPCs you name it. Only BPOs I did not purchase were supercaps, because it was a mature-ish market that did not interest me.

In order to have ME 500 and up to ME 3000 (very few items even remotely take advantage of that, but there are) it took 5 years of multiple POSes, the related logistics, the consequences of war decs, the many, MANY standings to be grinded.

MANY accounts were paid hard RL cash (no PLEX).


All of this, in the water closet. CCP caused me a RL cash loss. And not for leisure time, they took away 2 months of my (renewing yearly) subs 3 years ago "just because, no explanation given, no ticket answered". And now again with this coup de tête.

And I don't say more about the "new and improved" direction of the game because the ISD deletes my posts as is.




(*) For the thick skulls: ME and PE to me matter ZERO. What matters as trader and industrialist is:

- turnover
- volume
- profit.

Regardless of ME and PE actual effects, what matters is the competitive advantage, the tangible ISK that gets earned for having invested into research. Exactly like in RL, succesful corporations are those that invest long term in research and it usually pays off.

So, it's just DUMB to say "it was a bad decision" or blah blah:

1) It brought in great competitive advantage and money so it was not dumb at all.
2) Nothing gave a "warning" that such a foundation of the game economy would be suddenly scrapped.
3) A point ALWAYS missed by the "bad decision" proponents, is that they talk like Mr. John Smith new industrialist enters a new game where all start from zero. NOPE. Mr. John Smith wants to sell a Capital Turret? He won't sell ANYTHING AT ALL until he's competitive enough. "Enough" means that a BPO can require 2 years of research before its BPC become appetible at all, so the "wasted years" were a NECESSITY.
"Lol just buy it already researched". Sure, and except rare cases you buy at a premium that almost partly takes into account exactly the years spent to get to its compeititve ME / PE. Yes, there are some "firesale" opportunities and I have maybe 50 billions worth of "firesale" BPOs. Too bad the remaining hundreds of billions worth of BPOs were never sold and I had to pay myself time and money to get them up.


Bingo. Your product could be marketed as something with a differentiated value. Now, it is merely a commodity like all the rest. I have been dumping my cap component BPC's as fast as I could for the last few weeks, and I am still stuck with some, with a few more still in the old station slots. But I can't see I will be making more, given the prices are sinking to ridiculous levels, and fast.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#350 - 2014-07-23 20:22:29 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Bingo. Your product could be marketed as something with a differentiated value. Now, it is merely a commodity like all the rest. I have been dumping my cap component BPC's as fast as I could for the last few weeks, and I am still stuck with some, with a few more still in the old station slots. But I can't see I will be making more, given the prices are sinking to ridiculous levels, and fast.

that's what happens when your product's value is solely in the marketing behind it and not in any substantive increase in utility
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2014-07-23 20:36:17 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
I wonder if you can write that crap without bursting out into laughter yourself...
Well, goons, it's not as if anyone would take you guys serious anymore anyways xD

thank goodness the unblemished name and reputation of the scope is here to represent proper industrialists

the complaint is basically that ccp fixed a case of the game giving poor and misleading information
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#352 - 2014-07-23 20:50:16 UTC
i put a lot of good money into marketing Retar Aveymone's Cure-All Snake Oil, how dare you impose these regulations that i must prove the efficacy of any medical claims I make without compensating me for the millions i spent investing in a way to hoodwink the common idiot
El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2014-07-23 21:10:03 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:

business is about wise investment

making investments based on deceiving your customers irl is extremely risky as those sorts of activities are highly likely to be regulated out of existence

so too has CCP regulated the scam of "my me 200 bpc is 2x as good as that me100!!!". regrettably the regulation of this scam has impacted your investments: but that's why scammers don't make investments



I think the new UI is misleading in such a way that will obfuscate or slow down the learning curve for new users. How the value of inputs is derived is not clear. Is it Jita pricing? Regional Pricing? etc. And, in a case like T2, the inputs themselves are also decision points for manufacturing, i.e., prior inputs themselves. While the disincentive fees to produce are based on these inputs, the inputs have the presentation value of being factual when they are not. Prior to this disinformation did not have the sense of credibility extended to it that the UI now offers.

By this I mean a potential producer of a good may choose to abandon a line of production because he thinks there is no way to participate in the market competitively because the prices as indicated are "official" when in fact they are not. The same issue exists with understanding the cost of T2 BPCs when evaluated with their success rates. The UI doesn't complete that logic either. Complexity hasn't been reduced, how to make decisions has been obfuscated.

Lastly, a minor point, but the label for total fees doesn't produce sufficient detail. So the UI is part detail, part summary, all of which discourages further inquiry which prior to patch was a key element to gaining insight into the market.
Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2014-07-23 21:17:30 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Hirogenale wrote:
I wonder if you can write that crap without bursting out into laughter yourself...
Well, goons, it's not as if anyone would take you guys serious anymore anyways xD

thank goodness the unblemished name and reputation of the scope is here to represent proper industrialists

the complaint is basically that ccp fixed a case of the game giving poor and misleading information



Then please make CCP also remove: margin trading, officer mods, min. buy amounts, Contracts that sell and demand the same Item, direct trading....

in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)
The things i meantioned above and many more are used in misleading ways a lot more often, so they should all be removed, correct?
Also if you just took a look at the BPC's that were sold you could see all important values, CCP could just have hidden the ME/PE values completely, problem solved. (and optionally replaced it with %-values or whatever, implement better sorting/filter methods etc.)
But nope, instead trillions of actual value were destroyed without any sort of compensation, yey \o/
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#355 - 2014-07-23 21:32:53 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)

ah yes the 2 pyerite I saved choosing your ME1975 garde I bpc over an ME500 one was totally worth the 2m I paid for it

face it you were selling snake oil
Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2014-07-23 21:42:07 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Hirogenale wrote:
in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)

ah yes the 2 pyerite I saved choosing your ME1975 garde I bpc over an ME500 one was totally worth the 2m I paid for it

face it you were selling snake oil



Oh cmon... if you're already trolling at least pretend you read what you reply to... you can be better than this, i believe in you!
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#357 - 2014-07-23 21:49:00 UTC
Hirogenale wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Hirogenale wrote:
in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)

ah yes the 2 pyerite I saved choosing your ME1975 garde I bpc over an ME500 one was totally worth the 2m I paid for it

face it you were selling snake oil



Oh cmon... if you're already trolling at least pretend you read what you reply to... you can be better than this, i believe in you!

beep boop rubber stamp response to post complete please remit new orders
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#358 - 2014-07-23 21:51:52 UTC
fyi the 2m is the price for the blueprint not the amount over that i paid
Acks
RONA Corporation
#359 - 2014-07-23 21:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Acks
Jonathan Yatolila wrote:
and don't even talk about ore reprocessing. I went from 100% refine to 67%. This is really FUBAR!!!!! Someone in CCP really needs to fix - or better yet - undo this garbage.

Oh well, at least I used to focus on active Trade - and that is what i will be going back to -- but just watch CCP screw that up too.




With Max skills, +4% refining implant, and 50% refine station you get exact same perfect refine on ice. You get about 98% of previous on ore. You have to take into account the new ore batch sizes and the fact they increased the total mins in the ore. So yes, while in the UI it says you are getting 69% (or whatever), it is still possible to get the same amount of mins from the same amount of ore as before (or at least REALLY close).
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#360 - 2014-07-23 22:04:02 UTC
Acks wrote:
Jonathan Yatolila wrote:
and don't even talk about ore reprocessing. I went from 100% refine to 67%. This is really FUBAR!!!!! Someone in CCP really needs to fix - or better yet - undo this garbage.

Oh well, at least I used to focus on active Trade - and that is what i will be going back to -- but just watch CCP screw that up too.




With Max skills, +4% refining implant, and 50% refine station you get exact same perfect refine on ice. You get about 98% of previous on ore. You have to take into account the new ore batch sizes and the fact they increased the total mins in the ore. So yes, while in the UI it says you are getting 69% (or whatever), it is still possible to get the same amount of mins from the same amount of ore as before (or at least REALLY close).

do not refine in a highsec

sell the compressed ice or ore and buy minerals/topes with the proceeds