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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#361 - 2014-07-19 13:25:05 UTC
Kale Freeman wrote:
I vote for the time bonus.

The only people who won't benefit from it are the people who choose to run small runs of small things. Anyone manufacturing seriously will be attempting to get maximum use out of each slot, so they are probably already running n*24 + 22 hour jobs. These are also the people who would have invested the time into training the skill previously, because it was pretty much a hard rule that it was required for serious manufacturing.

This will also provide some reprieve for the newbie manufacturers who face the research mountain

EDIT: As an aside, a more equitable solution for migrating the already researched blueprints would have been to preserve the hours of research put in. If I've put in 28 days of research into my blueprint, to get it to whatever ME/PE it is, then set my blueprint at such a level that it still represents 28 days of research.

The only downside is that the blueprint that used to be perfect, isn't perfect any more, but all the blueprints that used to be perfect would suffer the same fate, so any individual manufacturer would not be negatively affected because everyone would be in the same boat.

The current solution is allowing the existing veteran manufactuers to acquire blueprints that are effectively impossible (or totally impractical) for a new manufacturer to aim at. That last 1% ME is awesome, it simply 1% extra profit forever and ever, because only the grissly veterans who got it pre crius will ever have it. anyone who starts after crius will have missed the chance because now it is totally impractical to research to that level.

Anyway, I'll just quit now, coz my foot note is longer than my post!


With the constant-time approach, the player perspective that we're concerned about is "hey, I finish researching that blueprint and now I have to do a bunch more research to get back to where I was when I started", which we'd anticipate would cause a lot more uproar as we're taking absolute rather than comparative advantage away, and we lose the ability to say "yes, everyone caught up, but your blueprint still got a little bit better" (applies to most but not all cases). Yes, everyone would be affected the same, but everyone would need to research back up in order to catch up. It'd also presumably cause a huge output slowdown as people did so, and while we're expecting a fairly large market disruption anyway, this could end up being strongly counterproductive.

twit brent wrote:
I pay a monthly subscription so my indy alt can train. If you take away a skill you should refund either the skillpoints or the game time.

Please see this from your Customers point of view and understand why people are angry.


We absolutely understand why people are angry, and it legitimately makes us sad to see everyone posting about it, but we need to balance that against the long-term health of the game, which sometimes forces us to make difficult decisions.

TigerXtrm wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Is the reduction in job cost completely off the table now? Because that's the kind of thing you'd expect there to be a skill for honestly.

But between those two choices I'd pick the additional skills. More ways to specialize in this game is always good IMO (without creating a skill tree the size of Texas).


The problem with job cost reductions is that the job costs are already trying to be as small as possible without being irrelevant, and a 50% reduction pushes them way too far into the irrelevant direction. We could artificially increase the costs so that the skill brings them back down again, but that feels deeply artificial (and to some degree puts us back in the hole we started in, although not completely due to system-variable costs).

Shin Dari wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?

Now you are asking a hard question. I see it as such, the 3-5% all jobs time reduction is the minimal that needs to be done.

The additional specialism skills (such as Facility Efficiency, Industrial Relations, etc) with Industry or Advanced Industry as prereq must also be done, but that can wait for next month or next release. You will need the feedback from the community and the emergent results from Crius to make proper decision for the industrial skill tree. You should make F&I tread for this next week.


That is a pretty reasonable suggestion.

Shiloh Templeton wrote:
I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.


As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?



Most but not all, yes, insofaras it is an investment and not simply a barrier to entry. That said, the bulk of this discussion is not rooted in raw numbers, so it's not a driving factor in the decision.

[quote=Kuroi Aurgnet]--TL;DR at bottom--


Okay, so.... I'm not going to lie- reading this thread has been as painful as removing teeth.

Lets have a small summation here:

CCP made a mistake. Oops. Mistakes happen. But this was a pretty big mistake and should never happen again.

Lots of hot air from all sides. People who are angry that something that they spent tons of time training has become invalid- this is by far not the first time it has happened (and frankly it SHOULDN'T EVER HAPPEN, but sometimes choices are made that the consequences arent clear until its too late- i.e. designing the skills this way), and it probably won't be the last time. At the same time we have a ton of people snapping at them saying "grow up and get over...
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#362 - 2014-07-19 16:05:50 UTC
Rena Senn wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset

Problem is, the skill was mandatory. For all the people who already trained it, which is just about everyone who seriously devoted themselves to industry, having that skill forced upon them in its new form will still be mandatory.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops

As above, people have already jumped through hoops. Not refunding the SP is only going to force industrialists and bazaar traders to keep jumping through more hoops by playing SP catchup and re-adjusting sale values for a now far less useful skill. Skills are also supposed to be about player choice, not retroactively enforcing unwanted specialization.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time

Repurposing skills into less worthy iterations also devalues the perceived value of skillpoints over time, especially when CCP is sending the message that any SP you already invested may suddenly change in operation and hence value with every new patch.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't)

Even so, this still demonstrates a highly flawed development and release schedule that did not properly accommodate for testing and customer feedback. Saying "We've already spent too much effort accelerating this car to 160 mph and it's going crash in the next minute regardless of whether we wanted to slow down or not (which we don't)" still makes you a reckless driver.

In short, an iterative and incremental development model is not a carte blanche excuse to do less planning and be more callous towards preventable product faults. Regardless of how you've shaken up your content release schedule to make it 'more agile' or what have you, if the result is a loss of customer satisfaction, then you're doing it wrong.


THIS!

CCP Greyscale - your responses and attitude towards customer service make me want to unsubscribe from EVE and try any number of other games. Quit being so flippant and emo. It makes me want to cuss at you (which isn't allowed here).
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#363 - 2014-07-19 16:46:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#364 - 2014-07-19 17:26:37 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.


We had a separate plan for the skill relating to the bulk discount that didn't work out (ie we cut the discount a few weeks ago based on feedback and internal discussion), so we're looking around for alternatives. I fully support your right to be skeptical, but all I can do in the face of that is reiterate that we want to solve this as soon as possible, and we are looking to make changes next week to be shipped the week after.

Furthermore, I'm taking my vacation "in August" because I pushed it back from July so that I'd be on hand for the pre- and post-release period, and I'm not expecting to lock in final dates until the release is in a good state on TQ and I'm comfortable that it's safe to leave it for a few weeks. This is the last discussion I'm expecting to hear regarding when I choose to take my summer vacation and I'd thank you all for understanding that a) I've already moved it about considerably and cancelled earlier plans to ensure that this patch goes off without a hitch, b) we've done this for many years and we have a very clear understanding internally about how to handle vacation time as it relates to game coverage and c) this is only being discussed because I'm trying to be as open as possible about what's going on, and if the consequence of that is that people are going to second-guess whether or not they think I'm allowed to have a vacation this year based on an extremely thin understanding of the facts involved I am going to choose to be less open in future Smile
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#365 - 2014-07-19 18:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mackenzie Nolen
After reading all the suggestions and goals (specialization vs hoops), I've changed my mind on this skill entirely. Here is what I would like to see it become:

Have the skill apply a bonus to team efficiency.

Tentatively I would say a 10% bonus per level to team efficiency. A team with a 2% ME benefit would have a 3% ME benefit for someone with level 5 of adv industry. Even better since teams are new, base team values can be tweaked around this bonus and no one has to know :)

"reasons":

1) Teams are specialization incarnate. People that want a TE benefit can pick those teams and people that want ME benefit pick those teams and this skill benefits BOTH by ampifying team effects.
2) Keeps this away from affecting install costs which sounds like it's on a knife-edge already.
3) Teams are, to me, very much an "advanced industry" feature that many newer indy types may not bother with initially (making this very much a specialization path)
4) I hope level 5 remains a pre-req for capital industry (I've seen conflicting info so far and haven't checked if sisi is up yet today to verify)
5) It sounds as though teams will be most beneficial to capital ship industry. Leaving it as a pre-req for cap production while tying it to team benefits reinforces this connection. It also puts cap builders on a more level field wrt team bonuses, leaving the driving factors for cap production in the hands of things like the thukker module so cap production can be squeezed out of hisec (which seems like an unstated gosl, but one I'm fine with anyway)
Kuroi Aurgnet
Cry Of Death
Almost Underdogs
#366 - 2014-07-19 18:23:59 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
After reading all the suggestions and goals (specialization vs hoops), I've changed my mind on this skill entirely. Here is what I would like to see it become:

Have the skill apply a bonus to team efficiency.

Tentatively I would say a 10% bonus per level to team efficiency. A team with a 2% ME benefit would have a 3% ME benefit for someone with level 5 of adv industry. Even better since teams are new, base team values can be tweaked around this bonus and no one has to know :)

"reasons":

1) Teams are specialization incarnate. People that want a TE benefit can pick those teams and people that want ME benefit pick those teams and this skill benefits BOTH by ampifying team effects.
2) Keeps this away from affecting install costs which sounds like it's on a knife-edge already.
3) Teams are, to me, very much an "advanced industry" feature that many newer indy types may not bother with initially (making this very much a specialization path)
4) I hope level 5 remains a pre-req for capital industry (I've seen conflicting info so far and haven't checked if sisi is up yet today to verify)
5) It sounds as though teams will be most beneficial to capital ship industry. Leaving it as a pre-req for cap production while tying it to team benefits reinforces this connection. It also puts cap builders on a more level field wrt team bonuses, leaving the driving factors for cap production in the hands of things like the thukker module so cap production can be squeezed out of hisec (which seems like an unstated gosl, but one I'm fine with anyway)



the thing about this is that until teams hit tranquility- we can't tell how this would balance out. furthermore, this would end up being a skill favoring only those who manufacture in areas with teams. wormhole players, people in the middle of nowhere, etc might not benefit from it as much- and that won't fly with something that used to be such an important skill.

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#367 - 2014-07-19 18:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.

You're an awful person. hth.

Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
teams suggestion


I'm pretty sure teams are intended to be something anyone might consider as an option regardless of what they're building rather than just a capitals oriented thing. That would be why there are bonuses to virtually everything Blink

Still, I like your idea. Not 100% sure on the specifics but in the general concept of "train it to get a little more out of teams" it's good...got my support for it.

Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:


the thing about this is that until teams hit tranquility- we can't tell how this would balance out. furthermore, this would end up being a skill favoring only those who manufacture in areas with teams. wormhole players, people in the middle of nowhere, etc might not benefit from it as much- and that won't fly with something that used to be such an important skill.

Teams can be hired to literally anywhere and if there isn't a team someone else brought there then you could hire one for yourself, since there will be plenty of new ones spawning all the time. They're not exactly going to be a limited resource.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#368 - 2014-07-19 18:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mackenzie Nolen
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:
the thing about this is that until teams hit tranquility- we can't tell how this would balance out. furthermore, this would end up being a skill favoring only those who manufacture in areas with teams. wormhole players, people in the middle of nowhere, etc might not benefit from it as much- and that won't fly with something that used to be such an important skill.


WH dwellers can use teams just like anyone else (from Crius patch notes -- "note that teams are never created in wormhole systems, although they may be chartered to move there".)

This is a skill that WILL be nerfed in comparison to the old. NO ONE is going to be happy with its new role as compared to its old role because they specifically want to turn it into something optional rather than necessary for industry. Which is fine, I get that, I support that.

This change means it amplifies your OWN choices, rather than havin a choice foisted upon you. That's the very essence of specialization and the crux of what many people have problems with. We ALL accept the skill is getting nerfed; we just want it to still be USEful to our own choices for industry. People picked an ME skill, they don't want a TE skill, no matter how awesome. Having it amplify team effects puts that choice back in the player hands.

As for "not everyone will use teams", yes, that's true. But I believe the set of people who ignore teams entirely is probably smaller than the set of people who won't benefit from a flat TE bonus, or ANY specific change made to this skill. Putting the change on team bonuses emphasizes that this is an advanced specialization skill WITHOUT forcing any specific benefit on people.

Also remember that the beauty of teams is that it can be iterated. While there may be no teams right NOW you want to take advantage of for your type of industry, there might be some introduced in the future that ARE helpful. And this skill will benefit you in that case. With a team bonus the skill becomes a LOT more flexible now and in the future than any specific fixed bonus, particularly TE bonus, that CCP could change it to.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#369 - 2014-07-19 19:07:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale:


I love that you're in here and getting involved, even though it might not appear so. (I'm nailing a note to my monitor to remind myself not to post before breakfast/1st smoke of the day) Also helps ease the mind that you're willing to delay a bit further to make things right. Unfortunately the list of promise/fail that has come before keeps me wondering if you'll be the one to break the cycle (hope!).


Mynna:

*hands mynna a mirror*
nuff said
Kuroi Aurgnet
Cry Of Death
Almost Underdogs
#370 - 2014-07-19 19:27:53 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:
the thing about this is that until teams hit tranquility- we can't tell how this would balance out. furthermore, this would end up being a skill favoring only those who manufacture in areas with teams. wormhole players, people in the middle of nowhere, etc might not benefit from it as much- and that won't fly with something that used to be such an important skill.


WH dwellers can use teams just like anyone else (from Crius patch notes -- "note that teams are never created in wormhole systems, although they may be chartered to move there".)

This is a skill that WILL be nerfed in comparison to the old. NO ONE is going to be happy with its new role as compared to its old role because they specifically want to turn it into something optional rather than necessary for industry. Which is fine, I get that, I support that.

This change means it amplifies your OWN choices, rather than havin a choice foisted upon you. That's the very essence of specialization and the crux of what many people have problems with. We ALL accept the skill is getting nerfed; we just want it to still be USEful to our own choices for industry. People picked an ME skill, they don't want a TE skill, no matter how awesome. Having it amplify team effects puts that choice back in the player hands.

As for "not everyone will use teams", yes, that's true. But I believe the set of people who ignore teams entirely is probably smaller than the set of people who won't benefit from a flat TE bonus, or ANY specific change made to this skill. Putting the change on team bonuses emphasizes that this is an advanced specialization skill WITHOUT forcing any specific benefit on people.

Also remember that the beauty of teams is that it can be iterated. While there may be no teams right NOW you want to take advantage of for your type of industry, there might be some introduced in the future that ARE helpful. And this skill will benefit you in that case. With a team bonus the skill becomes a LOT more flexible now and in the future than any specific fixed bonus, particularly TE bonus, that CCP could change it to.


the point that I was trying to mainly make is an ME skill would make more SENSE. even if it became less than necessary. to be fair, no matter what they change it to INDUSTRY SKILLS WILL ALWAYS BE NECESSARY if you want to be a hard core industrialist. you are not going to make any profit if you think you can get away with not training a skill that would increase team benefits, nor materials benefits. the ONLY skill that could be negligible would be time, and once that became true, then people would start producing to the point where time WOULD be important and then you would NEED to train that.

lets step back for a minute and stop with this idea of "no mandatory skills." Suck it up. Its going to happen. If you want to be competitive on a large scale, you are going to need to train whatever industry skills there are- thats just the facts. same goes for PvP. In the end, you might be able to fight other people your skill level, but assuming equal skill- the person with more skills is probably going to win BECAUSE THATS HOW THE GAME WORKS. Honestly- trying to make skills to the point that they aren't "mandatory" is devaluing SP in and of itself, because its saying "now you dont have to train that much to be competitive!" and while I understand that eases the burden of breaking into the game, it doesnt really set up as much for getting better, and it makes skills feel less of an accomplishment.


I really do understand how "broken" the ME skill was, but, we need to stop saying "this skill can't be mandatory" because if it has any REAL affect on industry at ALL it's going to be mandatory to be competitive in the grand scheme. end of story.


..... back on topic- I suggested ME makes more sense is because it would be balancing a mechanic we already have as opposed to balancing a mechanic that we aren't certain how it would affect the game as a whole yet. I think it would be a bit rash to change it to cater to a mechanic that hasnt even gone live on tranquility yet

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#371 - 2014-07-19 19:35:42 UTC
If Greyscale can ensure there will be some pretty cool w-space manufacturing oriented teams, like for booster production, T3 subsystems, hulls, and something for POS reactions - especially w-space polymers, then I'd be on board with a skill that bonuses teams somehow. Like a bonus to the hiring cost or a bonus to the benefits (or both). And yes I expect teams to eventually play a role in POS reactions, that would be awesome if I can compete in that environment.

But I'm not sure teams are programmed to be helpful to the little guy who does manufacturing out in the sticks. Are teams going to be less costly in less busy systems?

If not, there should be something built into the mechanics of how they work to make them more available to pilots like me who essentially do all the industry in their wormhole system. For example, I can't really compete on bidding for a team with a nullsec bloc or a highsec industrial alliance.

Could Advanced Industry be re-purposed to amplify my bid for a team such that I would be more likely to get the team that I want to work in my wormhole? I would also like there to be some teams spawned in the game that are specifically catered to w-space and other less busy systems. Like, the team would have an attribute attached that would only allow bids from players from systems that have less than a certain number of job hours or w-space only teams, etc. I would obviously prefer w-space only teams but I'll take what I can get.
Khiluale Zotakibe
Protection of Underground Resources
#372 - 2014-07-19 19:45:01 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.



CCP employees are real people too you know? Don't use the right that CCP Greyscale has to have his annual break to make personal attacks or question his professionalism.

If much ask who is going to be covering for his absence and if that CCP member can get involved in this thread so he/she is up to speed with the issue here.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#373 - 2014-07-19 20:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Zarrina
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.


We had a separate plan for the skill relating to the bulk discount that didn't work out (ie we cut the discount a few weeks ago based on feedback and internal discussion), so we're looking around for alternatives. I fully support your right to be skeptical, but all I can do in the face of that is reiterate that we want to solve this as soon as possible, and we are looking to make changes next week to be shipped the week after.

Furthermore, I'm taking my vacation "in August" because I pushed it back from July so that I'd be on hand for the pre- and post-release period, and I'm not expecting to lock in final dates until the release is in a good state on TQ and I'm comfortable that it's safe to leave it for a few weeks. This is the last discussion I'm expecting to hear regarding when I choose to take my summer vacation and I'd thank you all for understanding that a) I've already moved it about considerably and cancelled earlier plans to ensure that this patch goes off without a hitch, b) we've done this for many years and we have a very clear understanding internally about how to handle vacation time as it relates to game coverage and c) this is only being discussed because I'm trying to be as open as possible about what's going on, and if the consequence of that is that people are going to second-guess whether or not they think I'm allowed to have a vacation this year based on an extremely thin understanding of the facts involved I am going to choose to be less open in future Smile


I would not worry too much, I would say you are going above and beyond. Sounds like you moved your holidays just for this release. I may not 100% agree with all the decisions you (and CCP) are making. But you are engaging in constructive conversation. What more can one ask for.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#374 - 2014-07-19 21:10:02 UTC
Khiluale Zotakibe wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.



CCP employees are real people too you know? Don't use the right that CCP Greyscale has to have his annual break to make personal attacks or question his professionalism.

If much ask who is going to be covering for his absence and if that CCP member can get involved in this thread so he/she is up to speed with the issue here.

He's just throwing his toys out the pram because he couldn't get a SP refund.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#375 - 2014-07-19 22:05:31 UTC
Ms Michigan wrote:
CCP Greyscale - your responses and attitude towards customer service make me want to unsubscribe from EVE and try any number of other games. Quit being so flippant and emo. It makes me want to cuss at you (which isn't allowed here).

CCP Greyscale: Let me offer a counter opinion that I've been very impressed with your efforts to be responsive - and diplomatic - over the last couple of weeks -- despite dealing with people that sometimes don't respond in kind.


To frame my opinion: I've been playing Eve for less than a year. 1 character has had ME 5 for 2 months, 1 for 2 weeks, and one was 60% done with the skill when I took it out of the queue a few days ago. I appreciate your sincere communication in this thread, and give you the benefit of the doubt that you'll rework the skill into something useful.

TL;DR: A pat on the back for your hard work heading into the release next week.
Biscotto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#376 - 2014-07-20 00:32:47 UTC
Thank you to CCP GreyScale for replying to the thread and players comments.


My apologies if this has been mentioned previously I have read a few pages and could not find this specifically.
Obviously mat eff V is currently mandatory for any serious producer so I make a choice that to compete I will invest sp into it. After the patch it confers a different bonus. Yet I am not asked whether I think 768,000sp is worth 5% manufacturing time reduction. A choice has not been made in a game about choices. I am the player is it up to me to decide whether 5% bonus is in my interest.

I appreciate Eve may be an old game and some changes be hard to implement, but this feels like a plaster(bandaid?) to a problem and I hope it is.

Perhaps this bonus could be added as "Timekeeping" or "Industrial Project Management". While the Mat Eff skill be deactivated and a replacement rolled out next patch or not at all. As long as the player decides.

TL:DR
Give us a choice into our characters specializations.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#377 - 2014-07-20 00:57:17 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Khiluale Zotakibe wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
*stuff*



The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!

In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.



CCP employees are real people too you know? Don't use the right that CCP Greyscale has to have his annual break to make personal attacks or question his professionalism.

If much ask who is going to be covering for his absence and if that CCP member can get involved in this thread so he/she is up to speed with the issue here.

He's just throwing his toys out the pram because he couldn't get a SP refund.



Not quite, just highly irritated at getting force fed a skill that isn't what I trained for or directly related to what it was. If it were still an ME related skill I probably wouldn't even be posting to the thread.
Evan Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2014-07-20 03:48:06 UTC
So, now all skills could turn into something else for better or worse instead of buff/nerf to balance it out?

Great, nice to know that it doesn't matter what skills to train for anymore, they'll probably turn into something useless and you waste your time training for it.
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#379 - 2014-07-20 06:08:46 UTC
"We absolutely understand why people are angry, and it legitimately makes us sad to see everyone posting about it, but we need to balance that against the long-term health of the game, which sometimes forces us to make difficult decisions."

You obviously do not understand it. I paid money to get something than you change it so it has no value for me.

Where i live that would be against the law, I don't know how you think treating your customers like **** is good for the long-term health of the game.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#380 - 2014-07-20 06:14:21 UTC
I'm wondering if we can just get the SP refund but have it so that it accelerates our SP gain rate to something like 3,600 SP per hour (1 per second) instead of just letting players apply it all immediately, that would address Greyscale's concerns about the psychological satisfaction aspect of progressing your character over time. You'd just run the math so that the refunded SP would drain off depending on the difference between the 3,600 SP/hr max rate and the rate you would otherwise gain SP with your current neural map, implants, skill attributes etc.

Players would have to wait awhile to get their SP refund but it gives an incentive to continue subscribing to obtain all the benefits. Then CCP can just remove this ME skill wholesale and replace it with nothing and we can be done with this whole charade.