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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#21 - 2014-07-15 08:14:05 UTC
Mardris Fol wrote:
Unfortunately there is far too much precedence for this sort of change.

Two cases:

Scanning skills - 50% of benefit moved from the advanced skill to the base skill. No change over all but I wouldn't have spent months getting the final level of those skills for half the benefit.

Drones - 50% of Interfacing bonus removed and built in to base stats. No change over all and I would still take that but the principle is that same. The benefit of the reduced skills over the baseline is much reduced.

In this case I took the skill because although it was expensive it was 'essential' and now those skill points are essentially wasted. There's no change over all but I don't do enough manufacturing to be affected about 1% or 2% faster production (for level 4/5) and those skill points are a complete waste for me now.

There are some business models where increased volume means increased profit but that's just the mass producers.

Your two examples are fundamentally different from this situation. In both of those cases, the skill was simply reduced in value by moving some of the benefit to either a lower rank skill or the basic stats. However, the skills still provided a benefit to the same stat.

In the Material Efficiency case, the skill is being completely changed into something entirely different that has nothing to do with the original skill outside of being in the same skill category.

I don't think there is any precedent for a skill being removed and another different skill added...and the SP from the first skill transferring to the second instead of being refunded.
High Flyers
#22 - 2014-07-15 08:29:26 UTC
I have to say as someone who has trained upwards of 10 alts just to build capital parts and this skill being required, i do feel very cheated on the time wasted, as i would not be bothered by an extra 5% time on capital parts. This is a very very very bad change and needs to be looked into.
Mackenzie Nolen
#23 - 2014-07-15 08:49:03 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
In Crius they're turning Refining into a profession that requires a significant amount of skill investment in order to be competitive. But, at the same time, they're changing Manufacturing into a profession that requires no skill investment to be competitive.

The really funny thing is the whole point of Crius was to give industrialists other options for being competitive that didn't rely on purely static, invariant stuff like this. In short, Crius was already turning this from a "must have at level 5" skill to a "useful to have at level 5 but if you only have level 4 you can still find profits by moving aggressively to other systems to balance system usage costs and chasing/leveraging teams to improve margins" skill.

I would MUCH rather have seen this take the route of Drone and other skills recently. Namely, in the same vein, just simply less powerful. What's wrong with a 0.2% reduction in material use per skill level? Just setting up a POS is a 2% reduction across the board. A potential total 1% reduction from skills (with 0.8% of that easily obtainable at level 4) seems like it would not make anyone cry foul while certainly leaving plenty of room for new industrialists to find good margins in the new, "lumpy" landscape.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#24 - 2014-07-15 09:59:56 UTC
I support reimbursement - but only for people who can prove that they have never benefited from training the Material Efficiency skill. P

Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#25 - 2014-07-15 10:00:12 UTC
1% build time reduction?

A skill which takes 9+ days when fully remapped is worth significantly more than 5% time reduction.

Unless you're suggesting the 8 days it takes to train V is worth a 14 minute saving.

Either improve the skill to 20% at V or refund it.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
#26 - 2014-07-15 14:05:05 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:

Either improve the skill to 20% at V or refund it.

I don't want any kind of TE effect, i specifically trained for a ME effect.

Or in other words, if I set up a 20min production run or two before i log off, i won't be able to even NOTICE any time adjustments on my next login.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#27 - 2014-07-16 04:51:58 UTC
I trained ME5 on 2 toons because it was essential and necesary to compete with T2 production, the replacing skill is neither.

If the replacement still gave a significant (read: 12.5% or better) reduction to materials I would agree no refund necesary.

refund it or fix it.
Wocks Eh
Iskaholics Anonymous
#28 - 2014-07-16 05:53:41 UTC
This isnt a skill change at all, the only thing related is that they are both industry skills. If it was PE turning into this it would make more sense, but how does reduction of materials needed have anything to do with build time?
Renaming skills is one thing, but this is removing of a skill and adding another, not a simple rework
Bam Stroker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-07-16 06:06:37 UTC
I'm not even an industrialist but I know I would feel ripped off by this change. As has been covered in the thread already it's one thing to fiddle with the numbers while leaving the skill's purpose intact but it's another thing to change it into a different skill entirely.

Come Crius CCP should just delete the ME skill, refund the SP and seed the books for the new TE skill then let the players decide if they want to re-invest that SP into the new skill or allocate it elsewhere.

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Jon Illat
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2014-07-16 06:35:07 UTC
As someone who only dabbles in industry currently, having built some of my own ships as a goal, and producing items from BPCs gathered from exploration or LP, I found that training ME V was highly beneficial for the reduction in materials required, giving me that little extra ISK from production.

Changing this skill to a reduction in time means nothing to me, as I will very, very rarely have even one production line in use, let along all four that my skills allow me to use. I am fully for the SP to be refunded from the ME skill, as the casual industrialist (I fall into the very casual side of the spectrum) will likely find the new version of this skill to be nothing more than something that is nice to have trained to level III or IV but probably won't bother training to V.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-07-16 06:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#32 - 2014-07-16 07:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions.

That assumes you can have your production lines running all the time, which isn't always practical or reasonable. Most people probably have their production lines set to end while they're asleep or while they're at work, and if they're building less than 20 things at a time (fairly common to have batches of less than 20 for things like ships, I suspect) they may not be able to take advantage of this skill at all.

This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we?

Sometimes it's a waste, sometimes it isn't. If I (for example) primarily manufacture pirate faction ships from BPCs, 5% TE doesn't matter in the slightest.

The ME skill was useful to every manufacturer, no matter what you manufactured or how often you manufactured. This TE skill is, I suspect, only useful to a relatively small subset of very high throughput manufacturers. Really, that's my fundamental problem with this change--taking an immensely useful, basic, core skill and changing it a "specialization" which gives even less benefit than pretty much any other specialization skill in the game. Really, are there any other 1%/level skills?

Good to hear that this isn't the only option that's been considered, though. Hopefully this won't be the final iteration.
Current Habit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-07-16 07:37:37 UTC
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions.

Based on this logic, are you gonna propose to only manufacture in Amarr nullsec outposts next? Cause with the 30% decrease in manufacturing time the isk per time increases vastly.

Oh, the cost are also much higher? I bet that balances out!
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-07-16 08:56:57 UTC
you don't get refunds on changed skills, never have and never will.
Ria Nieyli
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2014-07-16 09:56:49 UTC
If the skill remains a prerequisite for Capital Ship Construction, which it probably will, refunding it will cause an ENORMOUS mess. So no, I can't see a refund coming.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-07-16 10:05:17 UTC
this is just a completely different skill, in both name and function

transferring the skill points is not appropriate in this case

remove PE and add advanced industry it as a new skill

if industrialists wish to obtain this skill then they can invest the unallocated SP to do so
Luscius Uta
#37 - 2014-07-16 10:36:59 UTC
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. l Roll

Except that's even less than 5 percent, since it's around 10 days of training just to get that last one percent. Even 2003 characters will have something better to train for, I am sure.
CCP is literally trolling industrialists with this, as if they said "let's replace this skill bonus with something as useless as possible" (go find me another skill that gives 1% bonus per level to whatever it applies to, I know only that Exhumers had it after their tiercide but that got changed eventually). Five percent bouns per level would probably still be acceptable to most people, but 1% is a joke. This is like changing Rapid firing or Surgical Strike to give 1% bonus to Turret Falloff per level Sad

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Multispace Technologies Inc
#38 - 2014-07-16 10:38:52 UTC
This replacement is unacceptable. Refund SP. Let us choose if we want to use this heavily niched skill or not.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-07-16 10:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
I have to agree with the OP. The skill will be a complete waste for me now.

Material Efficiency is 768,000 skill points. I would give players who have points in it an equal amount of unallocated skill points.

Basically, if you have it maxed at 5, you are gaining an extra 768,000 unallocated skillpoints to assign.

If you don't have it at all, you don't gain any. You have it at 3, you gain sp's in comparison.

Its a completely different skill (and I mean completely different).

That would fix the issue and/or complaint for people. Its less than 1 million skillpoints so it shouldn't be that significant of an issue (hated the 15 day train for it).

Actually the more I look at it, the more I realize that it itself should just be removed and the skill refunded


Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
#40 - 2014-07-16 11:04:44 UTC
This is quite irritating - I've just started two alts and spent most of a plex training this skill up on them which I wouldn't have done otherwise. I think the people demanding a skill point refund are getting overly emotional however its certainly the case that the skill has gone from important to negligible. Industry V with a 5% reduction in build time is somewhat ignorable unless you need it for a particular BPO requirement so it will be the same for this skill as well. Even more so as it will take 5 levels of Advanced Industry to achieve the same as 1 level of Industry.

I think the best course here would be to bake in 5% waste to each blueprint then have this skill reduce the waste by 1% per level. That way it reduces the impact of the waste mechanic on newer players but still gives a meaningful improvement to efficiency. So its a nerf to this skill but less so.

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