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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Wolf Kraft
Underground Smellroad
#141 - 2014-07-16 22:08:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Wolf Kraft wrote:
mynnna wrote:
5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions.


Mynna, your example (and this skill) are functionally useless because of all the other changes coming in Crius. There is very little point in having a 5% time reduction because you will literally be able to set up as many jobs as you want (though I'm sure there is a technical/code limit somewhere) in a single station since the production/research line limit is being removed from the game. Capital producers may enjoy getting products out marginally faster, but everyone else likely won't notice the difference.

However, I fully agree that the skill, in its current iteration, needs to be changed. Unfortunately, the proposed change is far from being a proper specialization skill that CCP is hoping for.

I suppose, in your world, you have an unlimited number of characters.

The number of concurrent jobs per station is being removed, but the number of concurrent jobs a single character can run is still limited to 11. Reducing the time that a job takes allows you to cycle your ISK through the market that much faster.


The only people that this skill will truly help, are those handful of individuals that run industry jobs 24/7 without interruption on all 11 jobs or if you produce capitals/supers. If you have more than an hour of dead time in between jobs each day (or 11hrs on a single job) on a single character, this skill very quickly becomes useless for the amount of SP required for V. Whereas with a single account, where you can have 33 jobs running, now that the line limit is being removed you can centralize all those characters into a single station of your choosing that has the necessary services. That itself is going to be a much more significant way to save time because now you're greatly simplifying the logistics of moving materials and products around while you're actually playing the game. Barring that, this allows industrial corporations to benefit from this centralization as well.

Like I said, this was a skill that needed to be changed. However, this is not a good way to change it. Especially considering they could have adjusted the skill to interact with the new team dynamic that's being introduced with the industry changes.
H3llHound
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2014-07-16 22:11:51 UTC
Gaston Miromme wrote:
I feel extra burned because I just trained up an industry character in preparation for Crius. If this change had been announced along with other Crius changes (While there were intimations that the skill would change, I didn't expect it to become such a niche skill.), I certainly wouldn't have spent the time to train ME to V.

A job queue, while an additional feature, would make this skill more palatable.



If you would have read the indy devblogs you would have known that CCP will change the skill. So really its just your own fault.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#143 - 2014-07-16 22:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
Greyscale, I'm afraid your list is complete rubbish. One can clearly see you're horrendously and depressingly detached from the things which actually matter to industrialists to even begin to think that a 25% ME upgrade is in any way comparable to saving 14 minutes per day per level from a build job.

Did someone accidentally delete the scripts you've used the past times you've removed (significantly more) skills than this?

It's a poor show all round and stands to compromise the good will which is coming from industrialists in regards to the positive side of the expansion, such as the UI.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#144 - 2014-07-16 22:26:48 UTC
H3llHound wrote:
Gaston Miromme wrote:
I feel extra burned because I just trained up an industry character in preparation for Crius. If this change had been announced along with other Crius changes (While there were intimations that the skill would change, I didn't expect it to become such a niche skill.), I certainly wouldn't have spent the time to train ME to V.

A job queue, while an additional feature, would make this skill more palatable.



If you would have read the indy devblogs you would have known that CCP will change the skill. So really its just your own fault.

Everyone knew it was going to be changed, but we thought it would be something that would still be relevant to everyone. As it stands, the current iteration is only useful to the most dedicated, and if you aren't running your lines 24/7, you aren't able to really put the skill to use (you save 72 minutes per day with the skill at level V). A small-time or casual industrialist won't be able to put the skill to use, so unless we ramp up our time on our industrialist (in lieu of other things we'd prefer to be doing), the skill is wasted SP for us.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2014-07-16 22:27:16 UTC
Wolf Kraft wrote:
The only people that this skill will truly help, are those handful of individuals that run industry jobs 24/7 without interruption on all 11 jobs or if you produce capitals/supers. If you have more than an hour of dead time in between jobs each day (or 11hrs on a single job) on a single character, this skill very quickly becomes useless for the amount of SP required for V. Whereas with a single account, where you can have 33 jobs running, now that the line limit is being removed you can centralize all those characters into a single station of your choosing that has the necessary services. That itself is going to be a much more significant way to save time because now you're greatly simplifying the logistics of moving materials and products around while you're actually playing the game. Barring that, this allows industrial corporations to benefit from this centralization as well.

Like I said, this was a skill that needed to be changed. However, this is not a good way to change it. Especially considering they could have adjusted the skill to interact with the new team dynamic that's being introduced with the industry changes.

Do they not have multiple runs where you live? Most of my jobs take five to seven days to run.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Bam Stroker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-07-16 22:44:25 UTC
H3llHound wrote:
If you would have read the indy devblogs you would have known that CCP will change the skill. So really its just your own fault.
"The Material Efficiency skill will be repurposed, stay tuned for more information on that in a future blog."
From https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/researching-the-future/

and

"We're looking to cap the maximum bonus of this using the old Material Efficiency skill, which will no longer be affecting waste (see previous blog)." from https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-price-of-change/ where it was implied the change to ME would be to reduce the cost of installing subsequent jobs - nothing about production time.

As far as I can tell those are the only references to a change to the ME skill from the Crius-related dev blogs. Yes, they indicate a change is coming but exactly what that change was didn't emerge until the 11th hour when now it's too late to incorporate community feedback:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact ... *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release
That said I'm happy to be corrected if this change was made explicit somewhere earlier. Just show me where.

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#147 - 2014-07-16 23:06:53 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
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Menero Orti
OnixMedia Ltd.
#148 - 2014-07-16 23:17:07 UTC
What i really hate about all of this is the fact that CCP changes stuff constantly without updating there blogs and stuff and when the expansion is about to hit you have all this conflict informations coming from all over the place. Seriously this is really bad. Wish you guys did a better job
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#149 - 2014-07-16 23:18:19 UTC
Good change for the game, bad change for me (as every one of my production characters has ME 5).

Still, I'm behind this change overall. My loss, the game's gain.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#150 - 2014-07-16 23:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

So, I'll say it again in a more concise manner: Refunding SP's for skills which are changed in contravention to the expectations of those who spent time adding them to their characters would be a good thing to consider changing as a matter of policy. There can certainly be a system scripted to handle this kind of thing in a nearly hands-free manner which would also notify players which skills had their SP's rolled back to 0 whenever it happens. Given that CCP expects to be online for another ten years, there's certainly some long-haul time savings to be had in making such a system.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#151 - 2014-07-16 23:35:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
As there seems to be a bit of confusion as to why certain posts get deleted even if they are perceived not to be rule breaking, a little bit of explanation might be in order.
If a post is found to be rule breaking it either gets edited or it gets deleted. If the latter, all posts quoting them (or replying to them without direct quoting) AND all post reacting on those quotes/replies get deleted as well for thread consistency. Even if those posts are not rule breaking in and of themselves.
As an addition, the same goes for replies to edited out parts of the post they quote.

For example: Post A is rule breaking and gets deleted. B replies to A, C replies to A, D however replies to B and E to K reply to D.
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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#152 - 2014-07-17 00:12:38 UTC
Follow-up after talking with my corp members about the Crius changes: At least one of my newbies is seriously considering not renewing his initial 6-month subscription because he feels like he's being screwed on this. Good on you (and I mean that), CCP Greyscale, for addressing this as a Dev, but I thought you should be aware. Please make your reconsideration a good one for the sake of new players who are much less tolerant of this kind of a change than are those of us who've been around for a while.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

Kahawa Oban
New Groton Industrial Works
#153 - 2014-07-17 01:00:23 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
1% manufacturing time saving per level is pretty uninspiring and is really only useful for long jobs such as titans

Here are a few alternative ideas:
- 2 or 3% manufacturing time saving per level
- additional manufacturing slot per level
- some kind of discount on job costs
- some kind of discount on bidding on those team thingies



+1 to this.

I was just reading this thread and I can deal with the loss of the material % decrease, but I don't see that a 1% buff to reduced time enough of a trade off. 2-3% per level is something that can be more significant.

Keeping in mind that almost all indy characters have this skill trained up to 5 as a prerequisite to just manufacturing at cost effective margins.
Shinzann
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#154 - 2014-07-17 01:06:27 UTC
I'm not a very serious industrial type person, I'll be the first to admit that. I'm still a little frustrated that almost 3/4 of the SP I put into the production branch is going to go from "rather useful to have" to "useful as teats on a bull" though and I have to wonder if there wasn't some other, more useful, option that could have been chosen.

Just my 0.02ISK
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
#155 - 2014-07-17 01:09:40 UTC
My biggest issue is: do we need more reduction on production time?
tl;dr: we are increasing production output, but demand is the same. So nerf all bps! Or change the skill again.....

Mynnna said that 5% increase in production means 5% more isk... Actually "5% increase in production" means, prepare to be amazed, 5% increase in production! We would get more isk if market absorb this production increase. But does it? I dont think demand will be any higher, so if we increase supply but demand is the same what will we get?

And there is another thing: now it's easier to jump on board of the industrial train (or ship) so we can expect even more people producing and another increase in supply. And team is another source of time reduction...

So my incredible unpopular suggestion is:
If you want to give us a new time reduction skill, first increase production time on all blueprints so that we get a similar level of industrial production output. =)

--- x ---

Other ideas that I would love do discuss:
- I particulary hate ideas about install cost. Let it be.
- ME bonus is always nice and benefits everybody. 1%/level sounds ok, right? Not powerful enough to be 'required' and not weak enough to be useless. Level 3 to 5 is the same benefit of a POS array.... Sounds fair. Better than current version that from level 0 to 5 is the same benefit of an implant..... Or a mediocre team....
- Team bonus sounds fun! 5% increase/level?
- give production a chance to pop a t2 bpc... 1% chance/level to generate a t2 bpc if you are building a t1 item. (Crazy, huh?)


--- x ---

And as a diplomatic action, I would also give some skillpoints bonus to everyone with ME skill (10% the sp spent on ME). Is that easier?
Gideon Enderas
Mafia Redux
Together We Solo
#156 - 2014-07-17 01:12:45 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Here are some bullet points:
- Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/
- We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here
- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops


That's cool that you're busy and everything, but it's a terrible excuse for not communicating changes such as this with your player base. When I trained ME 5 I was jumping through that hoop that you want to get rid of, now I'm stuck with a "specialization" I neither need nor want.

Quote:

- We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.)


You claim that you want to avoid devaluing skill points, however the last drone changes (which were communicated just as poorly) completely devalued the Combat Drone Operation Skill. "Repurposing" the skill comes across as a lazy band aid solution. I understand that it may not be easy to do, but why make a decision based on what is easy?

Quote:

- We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't)
- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two
- We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :)


Why am I finding out about such a big change from a post on Reddit that didn't link to a Dev Blog? Why is the ME skill being repurposed instead of done away with? Was the CSM aware of these changes?
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#157 - 2014-07-17 01:51:36 UTC
Rust Connor wrote:
- ME bonus is always nice and benefits everybody. 1%/level sounds ok, right? Not powerful enough to be 'required' and not weak enough to be useless. Level 3 to 5 is the same benefit of a POS array.... Sounds fair. Better than current version that from level 0 to 5 is the same benefit of an implant..... Or a mediocre team....

Even 1% per level would be too strong, and would become another required skill. There are plenty of T1 items out there whose margins are within 1%, and probably the overwhelming majority are within 10%, so in order to be competitive, a person would absolutely have to train the skill, even if it were a 1% / level material reduction.

I'm actually very happy to see ME get axed, and would hate to see another skill (even a much weaker version) be put up in its place.

My gripe with Advanced Industry still remains that it's only the most active industrialists who can put it to use.

A 1% / level reduction in install cost would be perfectly nice. So would a 1% / level increase in time that teams are available. Changing the skill and "giving" it to players who had ME is fine, just make it a skill all of them would actually be able to put to use, as opposed to only the most active.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Josh Cox
FC Build 'n Trade
#158 - 2014-07-17 02:07:39 UTC
I'd like to add my voice into the group of folks requesting a skillpoint refund for this.

As it standands now, Material Efficiency affects everyone who does industry. Even if this bonus were reduced and not removed, it would still affect everyone equally. By removing this skill and replacing it with the new skill at level V, you've handed an advantage only to the minority of players who scale their industry very large (ie. running lines 24/7); the rest of us (who do not run lines 24/7) are given a bunch of wasted time/skillpoints instead.

I say you refund it, and those who would actually use the new skill properly will put all their points into it. The rest of us will put them towards something for useful than saving 5% of the time that we weren't using to begin with.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2014-07-17 02:13:43 UTC
Hi CCP,

To me, reassignment of SPs to a lesser skill has more of a devaluing effect in my mind than reimbursement. We've lived through both - reimbursement for learning skills (so we know it's possible), and drone skill nerfs that just happened.

I think you'll find it more palatable for us (me..) if the skill does a 2-3% time reduction per level. The ME skill gave a guaranteed performance adjustment - even if the TE skill is not able to make it guaranteed, it should allow a decent enough window to take advantage of it.
James Dean Rockafella
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-07-17 02:50:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,
- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops


Why is it being mandatory a problem?
Are all industry skills going to be reshuffled when they become proliferated to an extent that allows a majority of the market to sell at lower price?