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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

First post First post First post
Author
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-07-21 23:44:04 UTC
I find it disgusting that CCP are giving industrialists a half-assed excuse as a replacement for a skill which was an absolute pinnacle for any successful industrialist to train with barely any say in the matter whatsoever.

The flow of industry is being messed with by CCP, and whilst i along with many others welcome many of these changes with open arms (which are along time in coming i might add). CCP need to recognize that the disruption of a potential 'skillpoint reimbursement' is nothing but a flow on effect of the changes that they are making to skills that we all trained in good faith.

It is mentioned earlier that CCP do not like refunding skillpoints because it messes with the 'flow' of the goal reaching aspect of the game. This is flawed in that :


  • Any 'break' in the flow of skillpoint re-allocation is all equalized over time. 40 days is all it would take for anyone to catch up to wherever these reimbursed points are reallocated.



  • We have already spent the money/time/ISK to train the 40 odd days to get this skill to level 5, so we have already 'done the time' as such. Since we have already reached this 'goal', we are actually having it removed and replaced by the changes CCP are making to industry as a whole.



  • Every single char that spent the time training this skill to level 5 CHOSE to do it because level 5 in Material Efficiency skill was imperative in order to have any chance of scraping any profit in manufacturing.


Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that removing this lvl5 ME skill 'hurdle' is a bad thing to do, in fact, i actually think it is a great thing to do in light of not having a specific skill being relatively useless anywhere under level 5 but replacing this skill with another skill that may break all your hard work in removing it is not the way to do it.

Don't undo all the hard work you have done in removing the Material Efficiency skill by replacing it with another skill which is just as evil.

Bite the damn bullet, accept that the changes CCP are making to industry have no room for this skill, and refund the skillpoints. As it has been mentioned before by numerous people in this thread, it may not be the easy thing for CCP, but it is definitely the right thing to do.

Give us back our skillpoints and let us choose if any new skill that you want to implement is worth throwing our 40 odd days of training into. If CCP make it worthwhile, they will have no problem in getting every industrialist to throw their precious skillpoints into it themselves anyway.

I challenge you to make it so without undoing your hard work... but let us make our own choice in the matter not just the choice of a few who are active in the forum.
DGDragon
Sons of Black Rise
Siege Green.
#402 - 2014-07-21 23:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DGDragon
How about give bonus to team?

Change name to Team Efficiency skill,

give bonus 10% / level to all team in system when character set job, example.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#403 - 2014-07-22 01:44:01 UTC
DGDragon wrote:
How about give bonus to team?

Change name to Team Efficiency skill,

give bonus 10% / level to all team in system when character set job, example.



I'd still want my SP back if this were the case, where I operate will be lucky to attract the teams nobody wants.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#404 - 2014-07-22 03:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Even 5% time bonus to all industry activities isn't useful and isn't what I trained the skill to have. The majority of my production was done by buying pirate BPCs and manufacturing them. They're all 1-run BPCs, so I can't finish more in a given amount of time with a TE reduction.

This is a really poor replacement for the skill. If I was still paying for subscriptions I'd be cancelling them in light of this absurd treatment/disrespect of customers by CCP. I trained the skill to have a cost reduction. If the new skill isn't reducing costs then the old SP need to be refunded. I get that you don't like SP refunds on principle, but this is a rather more egregious example of a skill change (removal and new one added) than anything else recently.
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#405 - 2014-07-22 03:26:43 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with.


As others here have explained (even to me :), everything to date suggests the intention is for teams to be widely available and accessible to many. Sure you might not get the best or most perfect team to your system, but very few people should be locked out of teams completely except by choice.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#406 - 2014-07-22 04:01:41 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with.


As others here have explained (even to me :), everything to date suggests the intention is for teams to be widely available and accessible to many. Sure you might not get the best or most perfect team to your system, but very few people should be locked out of teams completely except by choice.



heh... you must live somewhere busy, there's only 1 other industrialist insys where I do my manufacturing.
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#407 - 2014-07-22 06:24:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Bitter Fremlin wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.

Time reduction is all well and good but it mainly helps those who can choose their number of runs (eg. T1 BPOs) or whose jobs take a long time -- or both! Otherwise the lack of control/short build time means it is wasted unless you can be at the keyboard when the job finishes. The difference between 4 hours or 3 to make 10 150mm Light Autos is meaningless if you aren't available for 5 hours ;-)

Instead, as suggested above, how about something that adjusts workforce costs? "Employee Relations", adjusting all base job costs (manufacture, copying, research, etc) by x% per level. x should be small enough that it doesn't overwhelm the new SCI, but large enough that it makes a meaningful difference.

That gives the Industrialists yet another choice -- more training time would mean they could use a more convenient, busier, system for the same costs as the lesser-trained competitors. And since it would apply equally to every job, regardless of length, it would be useful to both the casual and the hardcore Industrialist.


- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.
- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.



Why can't you see time efficiency means nothing to everyone who doesn't build on all their lines.
Scarlet Bear
Anger of the Darkness
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
#408 - 2014-07-22 08:49:07 UTC
DooDoo Gum wrote:
I find it disgusting that CCP are giving industrialists a half-assed excuse as a replacement for a skill which was an absolute pinnacle for any successful industrialist to train with barely any say in the matter whatsoever.

The flow of industry is being messed with by CCP, and whilst i along with many others welcome many of these changes with open arms (which are along time in coming i might add). CCP need to recognize that the disruption of a potential 'skillpoint reimbursement' is nothing but a flow on effect of the changes that they are making to skills that we all trained in good faith.

It is mentioned earlier that CCP do not like refunding skillpoints because it messes with the 'flow' of the goal reaching aspect of the game. This is flawed in that :


  • Any 'break' in the flow of skillpoint re-allocation is all equalized over time. 40 days is all it would take for anyone to catch up to wherever these reimbursed points are reallocated.



  • We have already spent the money/time/ISK to train the 40 odd days to get this skill to level 5, so we have already 'done the time' as such. Since we have already reached this 'goal', we are actually having it removed and replaced by the changes CCP are making to industry as a whole.



  • Every single char that spent the time training this skill to level 5 CHOSE to do it because level 5 in Material Efficiency skill was imperative in order to have any chance of scraping any profit in manufacturing.


Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that removing this lvl5 ME skill 'hurdle' is a bad thing to do, in fact, i actually think it is a great thing to do in light of not having a specific skill being relatively useless anywhere under level 5 but replacing this skill with another skill that may break all your hard work in removing it is not the way to do it.

Don't undo all the hard work you have done in removing the Material Efficiency skill by replacing it with another skill which is just as evil.

Bite the damn bullet, accept that the changes CCP are making to industry have no room for this skill, and refund the skillpoints. As it has been mentioned before by numerous people in this thread, it may not be the easy thing for CCP, but it is definitely the right thing to do.

Give us back our skillpoints and let us choose if any new skill that you want to implement is worth throwing our 40 odd days of training into. If CCP make it worthwhile, they will have no problem in getting every industrialist to throw their precious skillpoints into it themselves anyway.

I challenge you to make it so without undoing your hard work... but let us make our own choice in the matter not just the choice of a few who are active in the forum.



we have many more mini updates to come,
hate to think what will be changed to good to worse,
just hope ccp do not mess about with the skills too much,
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#409 - 2014-07-22 10:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
Well I for one am eagerly waiting to see what (if anything) the new Teams feature is gonna bring to folks who build stuff out in the boondocks once the patch hits TQ. I'll at least be able to say for certain whether I can get behind making Advanced Industry bonus Teams somehow, because the bonus to job time (regardless of magnitude), definitely isn't gonna cut it for me.

I'm definitely looking to bring more industry to wormhole space specifically, but a bonus to job time actually makes w-space industry harder due to the increased hauling frequency needed to keep up with the manufacturing lines for that small subset of items that still make some sort of sense to build against the mass limitations. I really don't want the market to price in a faster turn-around time and narrow profit margins accordingly. I basically would not be able to compete with Empire industrialists outside of sec status restricted production.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#410 - 2014-07-22 11:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
I open the industry panel for the first time and I see over 2,000 1cm entries that are paying no attention to the fact they're neatly compartmentalized in their own inventory containers.

*edit*

Apparently starting the inventory UI the first time it flips out, close then reopen fixed it.
Alenn G'kar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#411 - 2014-07-22 12:47:58 UTC
I would never skilled this skill at V omg 1%/l Shocked Pls lower the rank at least!
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#412 - 2014-07-22 12:56:52 UTC
Alenn G'kar wrote:
I would never skilled this skill at V omg 1%/l Shocked Pls lower the rank at least!



Read the thread
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#413 - 2014-07-22 13:02:46 UTC
for those of you joining this thread late, I'd suggest starting at post #1 and reading before you go OMGWTFBBQ. This skill change is slated for further iteration.
Triturus Alpestris
Bad Taste.
#414 - 2014-07-22 13:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Triturus Alpestris
I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.

I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#415 - 2014-07-22 14:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Summer Isle
This thread has gotten rather out-of-hand. The shorter "science" time is good for the very reason that it would affect everything, which does indeed relate to a reduced cost (it's a fairly small reduced cost, but it still reduces installation fees). When it affected only production time, the savings would have been significantly lower. With it affecting everything, though, well, the savings are much better as you're getting a universal savings.

Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.

My vote is absolutely for changing it to affect all science- and industry-related jobs.

Triturus Alpestris wrote:
I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.

I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone.


Comparing the old ME to the +% damage skills isn't exactly a fair comparison, as you can still be effective without any of the extra Gunnery skills trained. With the old ME, if you didn't have it to V, you wouldn't be able to compete at all on the markets, and would be losing ISK on everything you sold. You would be better-off simply selling the minerals.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#416 - 2014-07-22 15:22:42 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
This thread has gotten rather out-of-hand. The shorter "science" time is good for the very reason that it would affect everything, which does indeed relate to a reduced cost (it's a fairly small reduced cost, but it still reduces installation fees). When it affected only production time, the savings would have been significantly lower. With it affecting everything, though, well, the savings are much better as you're getting a universal savings.

Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.

My vote is absolutely for changing it to affect all science- and industry-related jobs.

Triturus Alpestris wrote:
I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.

I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone.


Comparing the old ME to the +% damage skills isn't exactly a fair comparison, as you can still be effective without any of the extra Gunnery skills trained. With the old ME, if you didn't have it to V, you wouldn't be able to compete at all on the markets, and would be losing ISK on everything you sold. You would be better-off simply selling the minerals.



The reason why the comparison is valid is because this establishes a precedence where any skill = any other skill. A terrible precedence to set.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#417 - 2014-07-22 15:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Summer Isle wrote:
Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.

Except that with Advanced Industry I'm not saving 5% on everything. I'm saving 5% on the time it takes to get through the checkstand at the store.

If I was actually saving 5%, I'd be totally okay with that. The skill used to save me 25% on everything, and now it saves me 0%, but CCP is sitting here telling us "oh yeah it's totally the same kind of skill even though it doesn't do remotely the same thing it used to, so there's no SP refund."

That's not what I paid for. I "pay" for skills in the amount of time it takes to train them, and I "paid" ~15 days to get this skill to 5 in order to save money (indirectly by reducing minerals) when I build things. In any other business, changing my product after I paid for it would be a "bait and switch" and would very possibly be illegal. Switching this skill to do anything other than save money is a bait and switch, and saving time isn't the same thing. It might be just as good (or even better) for some subset of manufacturers, but not for everyone.

Please, CCP. Your customers are smarter than that, and treating them like they aren't is just disrespectful.

You say that you:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time


But refunding SP doesn't devalue SP. If anything, what devalues SP is CCP taking my skillpoints out of a skill that I intentionally chose to train because it was useful to me and putting them into a skill that is literally useless to me. In fact, allowing SP reassignment when removing a skill and adding a new one enhances the value of SP earned over time, because I know that if at some point in the future CCP decides to "change" a skill into a completely different one I'll still be able to get some use out of those SP by putting them into something useful for me.

I agree that refunding SP when making changes to skills is a bad idea in general. But there's no precedent for this big of a change to skills without refunds. All of the other skill changes that have happened since I started playing merely "tweaked" the skills, but they still affected the same aspects of the game. This isn't a skill change...it's a skill removal because a feature no longer exists, similar to the learning skills, combined with a skill addition, and forcing people to get the new skill at level 5 even if they don't want it.

In other news, congrats on a smooth launch of Crius.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#418 - 2014-07-22 15:48:53 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Summer Isle wrote:
Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.

Except that with Advanced Industry I'm not saving 5% on everything. I'm saving 5% on the time it takes to get through the checkstand at the store.

If I was actually saving 5%, I'd be totally okay with that. The skill used to save me 25% on everything, and now it saves me 0%, but CCP is sitting here telling us "oh yeah it's totally the same kind of skill even though it doesn't do remotely the same thing it used to, so there's no SP refund."

That's not what I paid for. I "pay" for skills in the amount of time it takes to train them, and I "paid" ~15 days to get this skill to 5 in order to save money (indirectly by reducing minerals) when I build things. In any other business, changing my product after I paid for it would be a "bait and switch" and would very possibly be illegal. Switching this skill to do anything other than save money is a bait and switch, and saving time isn't the same thing. It might be just as good (or even better) for some subset of manufacturers, but not for everyone.

Please, CCP. Your customers are smarter than that, and treating them like they aren't is just disrespectful.



its not going to change we are just going to have to suck it up. Like what they did with the Diplomatic Relations skill.


Also to everyone saying that they will reiterate on the skill, this is ccp until they do it everything they say is vapour ware and should be treated as so.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#419 - 2014-07-22 15:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
Heck, I'd also be totally okay with getting SP partially refunded at a lower rate depending on training speed. Determine how long it would take to train the skill if I were fully mapped for it with +5 implants or whatever, and then give me that much time worth of SP in my current attribute map with my current implants. So if (for example) the "max" speed of training was 2600, and I'm currently completely off remap for this so a training speed of 1860 or whatever, I'd only receive 768000/2600 * 1860 = 550k SP or so. Drop Advanced Industry to a rank 2 (which it should be anyway with this bonus), and then everyone can use the SP to fully train the new skill back to 5 if they want to, or go do something more useful if they prefer.
Colten Tokila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#420 - 2014-07-22 15:58:03 UTC
As a small time indy guy I just want to throw in that that this change has done nothing to help the little guy and it feels like CCP knew this replacement was a joke. The skill is nearly 10% of my total sp...and is useless to me. I choose to train a skill that would be useful for my corp, spent a significant amount of time training it that could have been used for something I actually enjoyed.

If CCP really feels that SP is more devalued more by doing a refund then showing that they will switch whatever skill you decide to train into with something completely different on a whim, then that just shows how woefully out of touch they are with their player base they are.

Subs are decreasing enough already, do you really need all the indy alts dropping accounts too? Do you really hate money that much?