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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Author
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2014-07-18 22:29:16 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Is the reduction in job cost completely off the table now? Because that's the kind of thing you'd expect there to be a skill for honestly.

But between those two choices I'd pick the additional skills. More ways to specialize in this game is always good IMO (without creating a skill tree the size of Texas).

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Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#342 - 2014-07-18 23:10:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?

Now you are asking a hard question. I see it as such, the 3-5% all jobs time reduction is the minimal that needs to be done.

The additional specialism skills (such as Facility Efficiency, Industrial Relations, etc) with Industry or Advanced Industry as prereq must also be done, but that can wait for next month or next release. You will need the feedback from the community and the emergent results from Crius to make proper decision for the industrial skill tree. You should make F&I tread for this next week.
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#343 - 2014-07-19 00:07:36 UTC

  1. If I had to pick one, I'd go with the TE bonus instead of the new skills: we already have a lot of skills prereqs, and we already have skills like ship construction that give no benefit per level other than unlocking ships at arbitrary levels (and often with gaps in-between). I might be ok with it if you also did a production skill revamp and made this skill flow better with those (because let's face it, the tieracide of the production skills hasn't happened yet).
  2. You might take a look at the accelerator thing. I don't know if it would work, but it would be nice for things that have many prereqs in one remap, but take another to realize (like Light Interdictors, all the prereqs take Int/Mem, except for racial destroyer V. Allowing the train for Destroyer V at max speed would be great for those training up the Int/Mem requirements for it.
  3. Another thought, what if we could pay for rush jobs, and this would reduce the cost of that? That way, if we needed components for a ship quicker, or were trying to beat a competitor, we could pay an "overtime" fee to our workers, and this skill would reduce the cost of that. This would be more in the spirit of providing more diversity and not using SP as the primary factor in succeeding in Industry.

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#344 - 2014-07-19 00:52:32 UTC
I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.


As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?

Manfred Hideous
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#345 - 2014-07-19 01:14:48 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Are we back to this? Part time producers don't get much from this skill. A reduction in job cost or an additional slot per level might be good but if the time reduction is pushed, I'd hope you give us the ability to move our SP elsewhere.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#346 - 2014-07-19 01:15:37 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.


As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?




What if i finished training a capital alt last week??
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#347 - 2014-07-19 01:28:40 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.


As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?



If you count a grand total of 10 production jobs and a month of having it, sure. Remember, there are a lot of new players to the game too. 750K experience is a lot to me ATM. In 3 years, maybe not too much.
Sjaandi HyShan
Overheated Industries
#348 - 2014-07-19 01:34:19 UTC
Manfred Hideous wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


Are we back to this? Part time producers don't get much from this skill. A reduction in job cost or an additional slot per level might be good but if the time reduction is pushed, I'd hope you give us the ability to move our SP elsewhere.


Well, with the changes it would save money from less time installed, and don't forget, manufacturing is not the bottleneck. It's research, invention, copying. It's much easier to keep those research slots filled up 24/7 then production, since production hardly takes any time at all (I can produce a BS in 3 hours, but researching one ME of a frigate takes over a day).
Kuroi Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
#349 - 2014-07-19 02:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuroi Aurgnet
--TL;DR at bottom--


Okay, so.... I'm not going to lie- reading this thread has been as painful as removing teeth.

Lets have a small summation here:

CCP made a mistake. Oops. Mistakes happen. But this was a pretty big mistake and should never happen again.

Lots of hot air from all sides. People who are angry that something that they spent tons of time training has become invalid- this is by far not the first time it has happened (and frankly it SHOULDN'T EVER HAPPEN, but sometimes choices are made that the consequences arent clear until its too late- i.e. designing the skills this way), and it probably won't be the last time. At the same time we have a ton of people snapping at them saying "grow up and get over it". None of this is helping the problem at hand. We ALL want eve to be a good experience for everyone- so strive for that shall we?

Greyscale has gone from being kinda.... not so here on the issue to being actively in this thread. Hopefully the latter becomes the norm because I went from unimpressed to impressed as he started really actively talking to players. It was a bit late, truthfully- this kind of interaction should be the NORM with a game this big- but I really appreciate the effort he has begun to put into this thread. So thank you.


NOW, on to the meat and bones- as someone who joined this game several years ago on the premise of industry (shocker, aint it?), I too think that the 1% time reduction is a bit underwhelming (read: frankly ridiculous) . While I don't understand the issue with "mandatory skills" as there are plenty of skills that do a lot for players in many departments and are mandatory to use well (thankfully most of them that are left are 1x skills which is a lot more acceptable), I do understand that the ME skill was a bit.... powerful. That being said, here's what I personally think would be best:

1. Keep it as a ME based skill, lower the percentage per level to around 1%. sure, "waste" as a mechanic is being removed, but iirc you are bumping up build materials to compensate- meaning that you aren't ACTUALLY removing waste. you are just re-branding it as the norm. So, a small materials bonus wouldnt be that ridiculous because it wouldnt be changing too much from what the system currently is, in my honest opinion. I know this mechanic is changed up with teams- but that's what happens when you randomly introduce new mechanics. But a ME based skill FEELS the best, even if the amount is a bit more marginal. EVERYONE benefits from it in a completely balanced way- whether they only manufacture a few things here or there, or manufacture EVERY DAY- a materials decrease is the most tangible benefit, so why remove it. just tone it down.


2. If you are REALLY adamantly against it- then the next best idea is the aforementioned idea of changing industry and this new "advanced industry" to affect install costs of ALL jobs, and then later on adding skills (or modifying the existing ones) to specialize in each field. While this would still be a small kick in the shins for all of us industrial players who trained ME5 (which is basically EVERY serious industrialist)- this is a buff to the industry skill and if you make the advanced version at least 3-5%, then it would almost compensate for the change- especially if you add in some new ways to further drive down costs (especially if theyre just buffing some of the old skills that are only borderline useful).




Remember that industry is a REALLY delicate and important part of eve- and as much as there are some people who wouldnt like to admit it, industry is just as as important as PvP if not more. Those ships and ammo and drones and modules etc dont just build themselves. So be careful on this CCP. We all want to give you our trust- but lately we've been blindsided a lot and we're all a bit confused and hurting from the wave of changes that many of us still aren't truly prepared for (the details of which have been changing almost every week). So lets just all work together on getting this done ASAP =) I want to continue to have faith in the longevity of this game, and the work of the devs- lets make that happen! =)


--TL;DR--

summary of thread,
personal opinion agreeing with general consensus of 1% being underwhelming.
two proposed ideas: keep ME just nerf percentages, or change industry and advanced industry to buff costs for all jobs- not just manufacturing. then add specialization capabilities to further reduce costs (as the new cost system kinda really sucks in all honesty.)

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.

Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#350 - 2014-07-19 04:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?



I'd put my vote on the all jobtime reduction.


To put it into perspective as to the benefits of the skill to date though, here's some numbers:

my T2 module production setup had (I stopped it awhile back) an average build cost of 585k per run, due to the vagarities of small quantities of materials the ME skill netted a reduction of about 45k per run. The slowest job was 9 runs per line per day multiplied by 10 lines running, or approximately 4m savings per day, or 1.46 billion per year per character (I have access to up to 4). I had intended to restart production after crius was in place but after seeing how much longer invention is going to be and that costs are significantly increasing in all quarters, probably not.

^^ This is the value you're trying to replace with what in effect will be a paltry replacement.
Orin Solette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2014-07-19 04:44:11 UTC
I was training a manufacturing alt. Then the dev blogs got released.

I sure wish I didn't waste that plex on something I could've done almost just as good with a fresh toon.

Thanks for the bait and switch I guess.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#352 - 2014-07-19 04:55:19 UTC
People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?

I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.

The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.

It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory.
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
Empire of Arcadia
#353 - 2014-07-19 05:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Decarthado Aurgnet
Chris Winter wrote:
People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?

I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.

The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.

It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory.


This kind of thing is what I was thinking when I suggested somewhere between 5% and 10% per level job cost reduction. I didn't have the actual savings laid out, so it's nice that somebody does. It'd help people in nullsec most, but the blocs are already rich as hell so that part doesn't really matter much to me. What this kind of thinking *does* do is encourage people to feel more free to manufacture closer to hubs and would create some potential for a little emergent gameplay where those who choose not to learn it could actually benefit MORE than those who do learn the skill by going into nowhere to make their products because they're willing to travel significantly longer distances, maybe even collecting their entire infrastructure and moving it from time to time so they can save a couple %.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.

Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#354 - 2014-07-19 06:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Maduin Shi
Chris Winter wrote:
People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?

I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.

The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.

It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory.



The install cost calculation, and this is based on an older devblog so correct me if I'm wrong, can be found here.

In short, a reduction in job install cost means little if the square root of the fraction of total job hours in the system you manufacture in is already very small. Since I do my manufacturing in w-space (booster manufacturing, and some other low volume manufacturing), that factor is going to make my install cost really really tiny with or without a skill-based bonus.

But since I'm in the minority I'm probably going to get screwed no matter what I say. That's why I proposed a Cerebral Accelerator type solution (in lieu of an SP refund), at least with one of those I can get the next skill that I want faster even if I can't do anything about skill queue decisions that turned out to be dumb after-the-fact.
Khiluale Zotakibe
Thermal Collision Consortium
#355 - 2014-07-19 06:02:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?


I would say 5% per level would be nice. But I wouldn't exclude additional skills having this one as prerequisite.

One idea for the new skills would time reductions that only affect specific products (something like gun assembly expertise or (Jump) freighter construction management). These would allow for serious producers to specialize on specific market segments through mass production.

(I would like to see skills that would increase the number of lines per character further but I do understand why that wouldn't be desirable)

On the topic of jump freighters, I noticed that with the changes the JF BPCs invented using accelerant decryptors went from 15 days build time to 25 days. Before Crius there was the option of sacrificing some margin (read 30% to 60% depending on market fluctuations) per ship to be able to almost double the monthly production and reduce the risk of said market fluctuations.
Is this something that is going to be addressed in the invention changes? If not, are you planning on addressing to this situations? ( I know this is a bit off topic but it would be interesting to have some light shed over this).
iovi Hashur
Pioneer Technologies Inc.
#356 - 2014-07-19 08:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: iovi Hashur
wow really. Tbh i hadn't read any news the last 2-3 weeks but that post was unexpected. As someone stated above, eve time = sp. So i get it if CCP wants to stop this whole sp reimbursement thing but tbh I wouldn't have spend 11 days in that at all if it was any different skill.

With the crius, what i understand so far is that either you are a big time industrialist so you can make deals with others ang get teams on your area often, or you will have to move your setups (POSes etc) every once in a while. Mat efficiency was the skill that gave ppl like me a chance to build something small scale, even without having access to researched BPOs.

Now i get it you don't wanna give sp back, but seriously i expect to get a skill of the same importance. time aint important for me in manufacturing. Nor i wanna manufacture 24/7. That's it I am NOT interested in 24/7 production.

What i can propose is if you wanna make the skill about time efficiency, then lower its rank and don't give me the rest sp as reimbursement. Just add more skills and put them there in a next update. But i guess that query is gonna be lot more "stupid" than just giving sp back.

Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#357 - 2014-07-19 09:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Chris Winter wrote:
I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.

The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.

I disagree with what you suggest here. The main reason is it rewards players who make bad choices, and has minimal effect on those players who make the right choice.

Industry is all about making good choices now, and so to implement a skill which circumvents the folly of someone building in the wrong location seems contrary to the aims of these changes, and will not make for the good gameplay which crius is trying to implement into industry.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#358 - 2014-07-19 10:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
iovi Hashur wrote:


Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4


I don't know how you overlooked this, but after Crius you won't start at -4 ME anymore. (For one thing, ME isn't calculated like that anymore, and new T2 BPCs get positive values from now on. There was even something about how all existing T2 BPCs at the point of conversion will get a one-time extra boost to make the numbers less awkward. The formula was something like ME -4 turns into ME 2, which is then converted into the new system. For some reason this will result in ME -7% BPCs. )
Avacore Estemaire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2014-07-19 12:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Avacore Estemaire
I feel that the most flexible option is to introduce new high rank skills that require the Advanced Industry skill to 5. They don't have to do a lot but they would also fix the annoyance that you can have an almost perfect manufacturing toon in like a month or two for all but T2 ships. This is your big chance to introduce all those high SP fringe skills that people have thought of through the ages. I would say that the total time-reduction for manufacturing (or cost reduction or whatever) could total to 25% (as 5% per level would) but I think it should require exponentially more skillpoints, use the refining skilltree as a point of reference.

Also make sure the skill in itself isn't worthless so make it 2% for all or something like that. Also make capital construction require it to 5.

tl;dr option 2
iovi Hashur
Pioneer Technologies Inc.
#360 - 2014-07-19 12:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: iovi Hashur
Owen Levanth wrote:
iovi Hashur wrote:


Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4


I don't know how you overlooked this, but after Crius you won't start at -4 ME anymore. (For one thing, ME isn't calculated like that anymore, and new T2 BPCs get positive values from now on. There was even something about how all existing T2 BPCs at the point of conversion will get a one-time extra boost to make the numbers less awkward. The formula was something like ME -4 turns into ME 2, which is then converted into the new system. For some reason this will result in ME -7% BPCs. )




I did see the negative ME change. What i meant was that even if ME now is 0 or positive, there are still ppl that have researched t2 BPOs which they can copy. And I hope i have missed a post or something, but i didn't see any exact date when t2 BPOs will be removed.

Tbh i didn't read how the transition for existing BPCs will be, but I hope they have taken into account the fact that most t2 BPO owners already have made lots of BPCs in case they lose the originals.

Anyway the thing is that i changed my plan when i trained this skill just to be able to make my own stuff and possibly make some profit. So I'm not really a hardcore industrialist. Thus time efficiency in industry really is of no interest to me atm. I just feel like this change is happening really fast and i don't remember anything being mentioned in the fanfest or till kronos release. I hope they wont go on and make hasty changes. Cause afterall its 11days worth of sp. if it was rank 1 it wouldn't be so big deal