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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

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DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#41 - 2014-07-17 19:34:01 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
Mostly excited for these changes since I do a fair amount of industry.

But the deal with material efficiency skill needs to be dealt with. I know you are hoping it will get forget about in a few weeks. This will not happen. Just do the right thing and give a skill refund.



Yea, I think they should refund it too, and let us decide what to do with that free XP..

My guess, They know players wouldn't dump it back into such a crap skill as the one they are now "giving" us.. And thus they dont want to risk it.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2014-07-17 19:44:25 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
Reading that blog got some gears turning in my head and I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy here...

T2 ME (based on old material cost, as -4 cost 150% of the base materials, and to counter that they are adding that additional 50% mats to the base for the new system)

old..................new
-4 = 150%.....2 = 139.5%
-3 = 140%.....3 = 138%
-2 = 130%.....4 = 138%
-1 = 120%.....5 = 136.5%
0 = 110%.......6 = 136.5%
1 = 105%.......7 = 136.5%
2 = ? (and thats where I am stopping as it gets to quickly diminishing returns)

And thats where the math starts to look horrible, maybe I'm wrong with this in my basic understanding of ME on the current system and how its being converted to the new T2 ME/material cost.

But from the above it pretty much says that if you have any T2 BPC's at or above -2 that you need to build them before the patch hits or its going to take up to (or more) 30% additional materials once the patch hits.

Can you confirm this or otherwise state hard values for material costs on old vs new? I mean if/when Sisi ever comes back up some of us can run these numbers by building things, but that will take a lot more time and effort than needed as I would hope CCP would already have run these numbers before making this decision?


Not entirely sure what you're doing with the math there. By my reckoning your second column should be

2: 147%
3: 145.5%
4: 144%
5: 142.5%
6: 141%
7: 139.5%

Further, we're adding six and *then* converting as if it was a T1 blueprint at that point, so your mapping goes like this for existing T2 BPCs:

-4 -7% 139.5%
-3 -8% 138%
-2 -8% 138%
-1 -9% 136.5
0 -10% 135%
1 -10% 135%
2 -10% 135%

Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
Forgive anything I overlooked in the text here, but is it correct that an Amarr outpost's ME level will have to be upgraded to Tier 2 (-2% cost) just to compete with a POS factory of the same type (only looking at the materials bill, I understand there will be an install cost difference)? Or is there a baseline ME bonus to that outpost?

Or perhaps were the POS ME bonuses scrapped altogether?



This is correct. Comparative downside to an unupgraded outpost is slightly worse ME, upside is it's invulnerable and costs less to install, and then you can upgrade it all the way to -5%. Swings and roundabouts.

Doug Dannger wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
Doug Dannger wrote:
So even after promising you guys weren't gonna screw over people who researched their blueprints to a high level, you're still gonna screw us?




I love how the community assumes EVERYTHING the devs say is a promise. I HIGHLY doubt they promised anything because they know situations like these can arise.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/researching-the-future/

"We're very aware that some of you will feel that you've lost your previous advantages gained by researching blueprints for a really long time, and this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition."

So while yes, I over spoke when I said promise, but there was also no discussion. Once again they took the easy way out.


There was pretty extensive discussion in the blog feedback thread, to be fair.
Lion El'Johnson
Fun Police
#43 - 2014-07-17 19:59:39 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Lion El'Johnson wrote:
Just one thing... Someone who has a BPO researched to ME 9 ( which will translate to ME 9 post-crius ) shouldn't have a smaller time to research it to level 10 than someone who had the same BPO at level 5 ( which will also translate to level 9 post-crius ) ? After all, in the first case there might be up to one year extra research which will be lost.



Put your blueprint in the lab now for 1 run.
Even if it's stacked up with a 80 day wait then it'll be faster to do it that way!...

You should check the server for the print in question. Some of them now go from 0 to max in a fraction of the time, the downside is that the cost of upgrading expensive prints is laughable.



Actually it's been "in the oven" for almost 2 years now and it will get to level 9... 12 days after the patch deployment. I intended to get it to 10 like all the other BPOs that i have but now it seems i should have stopped at 5.
Bellasarius Baxter
Zilog Enterprises
#44 - 2014-07-17 20:28:25 UTC
I think (hope) ther is a typo in the dev blog:

Drones: Sized 1/2/3/40,

Should be 1/2/3/4, right ??

A couple clearifying questions:

1) Is the "blueprint must be present at a lab for research at a POS" thing going live.
2) What happens to bpos in research jobs running at a POS when the expansion is deployed ? Is it still to be found at the station after the job is finished, or will it be magically transported to the lab where it is being researched ?
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
#45 - 2014-07-17 20:37:13 UTC
Quote:
The guiding goal with this translation is "no blueprint gets functionally worse" i.e. the materials needed for a single run should be the same or less after the transition.


Concerning caps using a Chimera for example:

If I follow your math in the blog I should multiply all base numbers by 1/0.9. My old bpo is me7 so this will now be me-9%. So i multiply my new base by .91. Assuming I just round these results, I do in fact keep the same amount of materials. However, assuming it is roundup as stated in other forum posts, my build costs increase by 12 components over current
costs.

Please state which is correct
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-07-17 20:54:19 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Two step wrote:
I don't think I missed it, but it would be good to mention what happens to jobs that are running when the patch happens


You are correct. This information will be in the patch notes, but for your convenience here it is:

Jobs installed or active during Crius deployment are dealt in the following manner:

  • Jobs that were installed before the patch still use the old pricing and time until delivered
  • Blueprints that are using Starbases remotely will be delivered to the station they were installed into, not the Starbase. This is a one-time only move, blueprints inserted after Crius will need to be moved to Starbases

So what happens if I have an ME 6 capital BPO currently in research at a POS?

A) It finishes research post-Crius, appears in station as an ME 7 BPO

or

B) It's converted to an ME 9 BPO mid-research job, the research is then 'complete' and it pops out in station at ME 9

or

C) It's converted to ME 9 mid-job, the research adds an extra level of ME, and an ME 10 BPO comes out into station?

These are all very different outcomes, and knowing what happens to the ME / PE of in-research BPOs with regards to the conversion would be very much appreciated.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#47 - 2014-07-17 21:05:18 UTC
With 28 days to go,I was hoping I wouldn't be disappointed in what they finally declared.

Nope.

Too many hits from the nerf bat over the last couple years. I understand where they are trying to go, and it might end up a wonderful trip in the end, but I an getting off here. You folks enjoy, but with the ME over 10 meaning nothing, standings meaning nothing, skills crippled, speed changes, etc, etc, etc... I've been pretty much nerfed out as a casual player from the upper end of the game. They are filling in all the cracks that people can live in.

No you can't have my stuff.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#48 - 2014-07-17 21:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangeresque Too
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[quote=Dangeresque Too]
Not entirely sure what you're doing with the math there. By my reckoning your second column should be

2: 147%
3: 145.5%
4: 144%
5: 142.5%
6: 141%
7: 139.5%

Further, we're adding six and *then* converting as if it was a T1 blueprint at that point, so your mapping goes like this for existing T2 BPCs:

-4 -7% 139.5%
-3 -8% 138%
-2 -8% 138%
-1 -9% 136.5
0 -10% 135%
1 -10% 135%
2 -10% 135%


Sounds like you didn't quite understand what I had said (and I'm confused why you referenced 2 different sets of numbers for the 2nd column, which was labelled new, aka the result under the new patch)... lets see if I can explain this in more simple terms.

3 examples, and please, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I feel like the math is sound: (For organization sake lets call it a Dohicky, and for clarity sake, its the T2 variant of the item that has a base resource cost of 100 Thingimajigs)

Now with a basic T2 invented Dohicky BPC at -4 (additional 50% in waste) it will take 150 Thingimajigs to build, correct so far? This patch will update this BPC to new ME standards; adding 6, resulting in a value of ME 2 in the old system, and then applying the conversion, landing it at 7% range. So now under the new system, the base cost of a Dohicky is 150 Thingimajigs, then apply the 7% from the, lands it at 139.5 Thingimajigs, so yeah, under the new system in just terms of material cost, it will be cheaper (material wise) to build a Dohicky than it currently is in the old system currently on TQ.

Those numbers jive so far? Ok, good, lets apply that to say, a Dohicky BPC that was invented to a state of ME 0 (old/current TQ). This BPC requires 110 Thingimajigs to output a Dohicky (due to 10% waste), math still good here? Ok, so lets apply this with the new system. ME 0, add 6, results in ME 6 (still old system), convert to new system, gives you 9% (because any old ME value between 5 and 9 will result in 9%, as per dev blog). So this very same T2 Dohicky BPC at 9% now costs 136.5 Thingimajigs (150 base, subtract 9%), still good? This results in a 24% increase to material requires comparing old/current with the new system.

3rd example, say we have a T2 Dohicky BPC invented to ME 10, would only require 101 Thingimajigs to build (base being 100, and waste being something like .9% with ME 10). In the new system this lucky BPC gets set as a perfect 10, resulting in 10% reduction in material cost, therefore making a Dohicky (base of 150 Thingimajigs) cost 135 Thingimajigs. A more substantial 34% increase to material costs, right?

This is the one area that CCP has failed to actually respond with hard numbers, numbers which the rest of us can't produce ourselves until Sisi comes back online, which will be too late (not that it isn't too late already). I do multiple levels of T2 production from modules to rigs to ships, and it would be nice to know if I should stop building certain things until the patch hits or if I should either hold or sell all current stock due to potential changes to material requirements at the different levels the blueprints were that created these items (-4 for modules obviously, but have a quite a few marauders at -1 currently).
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-07-17 21:15:35 UTC
Quote:
In both cases we are now displaying both values in the UI as negative numbers, as they are reductions; this is possible because of the invention changes mentioned later on!


Oh thank god, I was afraid my repeated banter on this topic was being ignored. Good job! Cool

Quote:
Job value is based on the item or blueprint that represents the primary output of the job. For manufacturing, this is the value of the inputs required to build that output item, so for pretty much all build jobs it's the value of the job's input.


Another oh thank god. This makes much more sense than using the output item's value, which I believe was the early intention of this.

Quote:
Firstly, we've assigned all blueprints a behind-the-scenes rank, which dictates a lot of the values.[/quote[

Hold it. Why is this behind the scenes? Why not simply display it as a blueprint stat, as it is apparently quite an important one for a variety of things?

[quote]After *considerable* discussion, both internally and on the forums, we have decided that we are not going to award any additional compensation for blueprints currently researched past ME/PE 10.


Good! Cool

Some very good last minute changes based on player feedback in here. Anyone who's been reading along in the test server forum surely knows there were some god awful implementations in earlier versions. Good job, CCP. Keep it up! Cool

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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
#50 - 2014-07-17 21:18:02 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Two step wrote:
I don't think I missed it, but it would be good to mention what happens to jobs that are running when the patch happens


You are correct. This information will be in the patch notes, but for your convenience here it is:

Jobs installed or active during Crius deployment are dealt in the following manner:

  • Jobs that were installed before the patch still use the old pricing and time until delivered
  • Blueprints that are using Starbases remotely will be delivered to the station they were installed into, not the Starbase. This is a one-time only move, blueprints inserted after Crius will need to be moved to Starbases

So what happens if I have an ME 6 capital BPO currently in research at a POS?

A) It finishes research post-Crius, appears in station as an ME 7 BPO

or

B) It's converted to an ME 9 BPO mid-research job, the research is then 'complete' and it pops out in station at ME 9

or

C) It's converted to ME 9 mid-job, the research adds an extra level of ME, and an ME 10 BPO comes out into station?

These are all very different outcomes, and knowing what happens to the ME / PE of in-research BPOs with regards to the conversion would be very much appreciated.


I don't think people can read, I know its been posted several times before, and I could have sworn it was mentioned in the blogs a few weeks back, if its in the oven it will convert once "Delivered". It won't convert mid job, it won't cancel, it will run its course and then once delivered the system will process the conversion like every other blueprint.
Looping Loui
Another Corp..
#51 - 2014-07-17 21:22:22 UTC
Can someone elaborate on Appendix 2 please?

Is this effecting material input or isk input?
Clayton Forester
DEEP-13
#52 - 2014-07-17 21:25:06 UTC

--question: I have several T2 ship bps that have multiple runs, for example 2 runs 5 runs, etc.

From what I read, all T2 ship BPs are going to have only 1 run? So I'm losing runs on these BPs? Or are you going to give me say five T2 BPs with one run each to replace my one BP with five runs?

did I misread the post?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-07-17 21:39:19 UTC
Looping Loui wrote:
Can someone elaborate on Appendix 2 please?

Is this effecting material input or isk input?

The latter -- it only affects job cost.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Het Silenius
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-07-17 21:40:25 UTC
Clayton Forester wrote:

--question: I have several T2 ship bps that have multiple runs, for example 2 runs 5 runs, etc.

From what I read, all T2 ship BPs are going to have only 1 run? So I'm losing runs on these BPs? Or are you going to give me say five T2 BPs with one run each to replace my one BP with five runs?

did I misread the post?

Are you talking about this part?

Quote:
Successful invention always outputs a maximum-run copy as a baseline, which is then modified by decryptors; max runs have been adjusted to be 1 for T2 ships and Rigs and 10 for all other T2 products

This has to do with invention of new T2 BPCs, not existing T2 BPCs.

Currently, IIRC, if you want a max-run T2 BPC you have to feed a max-run T1 BPC into the invention process. For example, if you want a 10-run Hobgoblin II BPC, you have to begin with a 1,500-run T1 BPC.
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-07-17 21:55:14 UTC
I have some vague recollection of a statement being made in one of the blogs that if a bpo is functionally perfect now, it will continue to be functionally perfect in the next release.

Quick example would be a simple component bpo Linear Shield Emitter currently researched to ME 4 which is functionally perfect.

Is this going to see a conversion to ME -10% or ME -7%?
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#56 - 2014-07-17 22:22:14 UTC
Quote:
Invention only requires one run from a blueprint copy, and deducts it exactly as if you'd built from the blueprint


so this means if i have a 300 run BPC that i do 1 invention job and it is successfuly i'll get back a 299 T1 BPC, and 1 T2 10x run BPC [assuming it is something like an Armor Hardener that comes with 10 runs)?

Does that mean I can queue the invention job to automatically repeat until the T1 BPC is exhausted? (PLEASE SAY YES!)

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#57 - 2014-07-17 22:25:54 UTC
Het Silenius wrote:
Clayton Forester wrote:

--question: I have several T2 ship bps that have multiple runs, for example 2 runs 5 runs, etc.

From what I read, all T2 ship BPs are going to have only 1 run? So I'm losing runs on these BPs? Or are you going to give me say five T2 BPs with one run each to replace my one BP with five runs?

did I misread the post?

Are you talking about this part?

Quote:
Successful invention always outputs a maximum-run copy as a baseline, which is then modified by decryptors; max runs have been adjusted to be 1 for T2 ships and Rigs and 10 for all other T2 products

This has to do with invention of new T2 BPCs, not existing T2 BPCs.

Currently, IIRC, if you want a max-run T2 BPC you have to feed a max-run T1 BPC into the invention process. For example, if you want a 10-run Hobgoblin II BPC, you have to begin with a 1,500-run T1 BPC.



Under the new system a 1 run HobGob will result in a 10 run HobGob II
Thats if I am reading it Correctly

Existing BPCs are not getting converted by +6 then convert
My -4/-4 prints went to +6/+14
My -1/-1 prints went to +9/+18
So the -1/-1's might hold true, but not the -4/-4's..
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-07-17 22:50:24 UTC
CCP, please edit the Material Efficiency skill change part of the Dev Blog to say the topic is still under discussion on the forums. aka here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4812531#post4812531

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-07-17 23:00:15 UTC
I've probably mentioned this before, but here it goes again as a post-Crius Hail Mary.

Right now, there are compressed varieties of all three types of an ore (e.g.: Veldspar, Concentrated Veldspar, and Dense Veldspar.) Instead of having three different types of compressed ore, could all three types of these ore simply compress down to "Compressed Veldspar"?

You can do this by making the amount of, e.g., Dense Veldspar needed to make a Compressed Veldspar be less than the normal Veldspar -> Compressed Veldspar recipe.

Doing this would simplify the acquisition of ore on the market significantly.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#60 - 2014-07-17 23:03:10 UTC
Querns wrote:
I've probably mentioned this before, but here it goes again as a post-Crius Hail Mary.

Right now, there are compressed varieties of all three types of an ore (e.g.: Veldspar, Concentrated Veldspar, and Dense Veldspar.) Instead of having three different types of compressed ore, could all three types of these ore simply compress down to "Compressed Veldspar"?

You can do this by making the amount of, e.g., Dense Veldspar needed to make a Compressed Veldspar be less than the normal Veldspar -> Compressed Veldspar recipe.

Doing this would simplify the acquisition of ore on the market significantly.


Oh this please so much. Need to buy 6 million compressed velspar every week, now do i put up a buy order for 2 mil each and hope ratios fill them the same? This is just a pain in the ass heh.

Having only 1 type per ore would make things so much better as I put a single buy order up and I know people will have that one