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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#1261 - 2014-07-05 05:02:06 UTC
GM Lelouch; Although avoiding consequences by alt recycling is not allowed, there is another way to avoid the consequences of suicide ganking that currently is allowed. My question: Should it be allowed? Players are getting around the entire "actions have consequences" basis of Eve. What are they doing?

They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence. The entire system made by CCP is rendered irrelevant. Doing this violates no rule, but should the game really work that way? I propose a change:

One:
If you are -5 or less, and;
Have a criminal flag, and;
lay the final blow on a ship, then;
The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.

Two:
If you are -5 or less, and;
have a negative wallet, then;
You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle.
Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.

Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences".

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1262 - 2014-07-05 05:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vincent Athena wrote:
They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence.
Eh, how does that remove the consequence (i.e. having low standings)? They don't avoid anything, so why on earth would it not be allowed? You're being spectacularly nonsensical here.

Quote:
Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences".
How do you return to a state you're already at? Actions already have consequences.
And why does ganking need to be nerfed even more?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1263 - 2014-07-05 05:07:15 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
GM Lelouch; Although avoiding consequences by alt recycling is not allowed, there is another way to avoid the consequences of suicide ganking that currently is allowed. My question: Should it be allowed? Players are getting around the entire "actions have consequences" basis of Eve. What are they doing?

They dedicate an alt to suicide ganking, and never bother fixing the low standings. Thus, the standing hit ceases to be a consequence. The entire system made by CCP is rendered irrelevant. Doing this violates no rule, but should the game really work that way? I propose a change:

One:
If you are -5 or less, and;
Have a criminal flag, and;
lay the final blow on a ship, then;
The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.

Two:
If you are -5 or less, and;
have a negative wallet, then;
You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle.
Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.

Will this stop suicide ganking? No, of course not. But it will return us to "actions have consequences".


CCP, stop pvp pilots from pvping in this pvp game.

That is literally what you just said.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1264 - 2014-07-05 05:09:24 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

One:
If you are -5 or less, and;
Have a criminal flag, and;
lay the final blow on a ship, then;
The insurance payout for that ship comes from your wallet.

Two:
If you are -5 or less, and;
have a negative wallet, then;
You may not board, activate, or undock any ship bigger than a shuttle.
Reason: All larger ships have a crew, and no crew will work for a criminal who has no money.



The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec.

There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1265 - 2014-07-05 05:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec.
Why would they do that?

Quote:
There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence.
…except, of course, that it has plenty of consequences and that there's no good reason to change it other than to maybe make ganks a bit more common so that flying stupidly has more consequences of consequence.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1266 - 2014-07-05 05:19:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The simple solution is to just have Concord blow up any -10 pods in high sec.
Why would they do that?

Quote:
There's no good reason for the system we have now. The one where ganking has no consequences of any consequence.
…except, of course, that it has plenty of consequences and that there's no good reason to change it other than to maybe make ganks a bit more common so that flying stupidly has more consequences of consequence.


LOL! Two sentences.

Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes? I bet if I looked hard enough I'd find one where you did it with a two word post.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1267 - 2014-07-05 05:31:27 UTC
Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10.

What inconvenience, you can't mine in highsec with your -10 anymore? LolLolLol

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1268 - 2014-07-05 05:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes?
Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to.

Could you please answer the question? And to elaborate: why on earth should NPCs take over a job that players are meant to do?

Sentamon wrote:
Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10.
How do alts keep your character from being blown up before it can do what it was trying to do?
GM Lelouch
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#1269 - 2014-07-05 05:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: GM Lelouch
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
GM Lelouch wrote:

One final clarification: Alt recycling is defined as the act of using a disposable character/account to perform actions which carry negative consequences within the game and then recycling (biomassing) the character to bypass said consequences and starting all over again with a new character.

1. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then farming up security status once it drops too low? This is totally okay with us.
2. Using an alt account to suicide gank and then deleting the character and replacing it with a new one once security status drops too low? This is not okay.


I am a little confused.
Of what benefit is deleting the character with the low status (but with PvP skills) when you have to make a completely new character to replace him?
Wouldn't the loss of a skilled character be a hindrance?

I have done something like that with my mining characters. I gave a brand new character the isk and other assets owned by an established character (this is the established one), then retired the established character to the forum.
I have given new characters the assets of more established characters before biomassing the older characters, tho. I have even stated multiple times in the forum I had done this and no one raised any alarms about 'recycling'.

Wouldn't the loss of skills be considered a problem for PvP?
My confusion is basically because I avoid PvP, I admit.


Alt recycling abuse is generally done with specific ships in mind which are quick and easy to train for yet have a comparably high alpha strike (destroyers). They're pretty quick to train for and a "serious" abuser usually has multiple alt accounts cycling in such a way that a new batch of disposable characters is in training while the current batch is in use. When Batch A's sec status gets too low, Batch B will be fully trained and ready to use. Once Batch B is used up, the replacement characters for Batch A are ready for use. If all this seems like more effort than it is worth, it is because it really is more effort than it is worth, unless you like having your main accounts suspended Blink

All that being said, alt recycling really is not a common problem these days. We don't see very many tickets anymore where the reported player actually was recycling alts. It was much more common back when newly created characters started with more SP after character creation. Back then there were setups which practically had you in destroyers right after character creation.

Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1270 - 2014-07-05 05:48:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes?
Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to.

Could you please answer the question? And to elaborate: why on earth should NPCs take over a job that players are meant to do?

Sentamon wrote:
Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10.
How do alts keep your character from being blown up before it can do what it was trying to do?


To do ... what? ... mine, run missions? No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.

All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1271 - 2014-07-05 05:50:18 UTC
Sentamon wrote:

All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.


And? Mechanical consequences are inflicted on a per character basis. You can stomp your feet about alts all you want, but they are an integral part of EVE, and they're not going away now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1272 - 2014-07-05 05:50:44 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Is there any post that is too small for you to break into multiple quotes?
Yes, one that only has a single point to respond to.

Could you please answer the question? And to elaborate: why on earth should NPCs take over a job that players are meant to do?

Sentamon wrote:
Alts nullify any and all consequences of -10.
How do alts keep your character from being blown up before it can do what it was trying to do?


To do ... what? ... mine, run missions? No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.

All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.



And?

We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1273 - 2014-07-05 06:00:14 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
To do ... what?
Whatever it is they're trying to do with the character.

Quote:
No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.

All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.
…and how do alts keep the character from being blown up before he can do what he's trying to do?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1274 - 2014-07-05 06:01:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

And?

We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.


... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.


~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1275 - 2014-07-05 06:04:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
To do ... what?
Whatever it is they're trying to do with the character.

Quote:
No they don't, but for their main function in highsec, to gank, then yes they do.

All the important parts of a gank are done with alts and with no consequences at all. (Equipping, Scouting, Scanning, Bumping). The last and final part is elementary.
…and how do alts keep the character from being blown up before he can do what he's trying to do?


Because getting your cheap suicide ship blown up actually means something. Roll

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1276 - 2014-07-05 06:04:49 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

And?

We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.


... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.




Yes, there are.

The fact that they can be mitigated by smart gameplay and sane target selection does not mean they don't exist.

And the fact that people still, after a decade of it going on, refuse to defend themselves is not indicative of a problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1277 - 2014-07-05 06:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sentamon wrote:
... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.

If that's true (and it clearly isn't), then it's only because you fail in your duty to provide them.

At any rate, your claim falls apart as soon as we subject it to the current reality and mechanics of EVE. There are plenty of consequences to ganking in highsec and they are very obviously meaningful or ganks would not be so laughably rare.

Quote:
Because getting your cheap suicide ship blown up actually means something.
Yes. It means you fail to do what you intended to do. The target gets away and you have to wait for tomorrow before a new one pops up.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1278 - 2014-07-05 06:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Sentamon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

And?

We have tens of thousands of alts for supplying nullsec to avoid wardecs too.


... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.




Aside from the fact that at -10 you are open to attack from everyone, gate and station guns open fire on you and cannot stay in any place longer then 30 seconds or have the faction navy warp in and kill you.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1279 - 2014-07-05 06:06:52 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


If you think they are recycling then report them.


I should imagine it is more a case of Disposable account. It takes what 3 weeks to create a gank char? That leaves a month if subbed that account. to go ganking. When sub runs out. stop using account and sub the next one.


Maybe it is too much tinfoil, but definitely a possibility.


Not really. 3 weeks will result in a pretty sub-par gank character.

I have spent over 3 months training every skill that can affect the ganking potential of the Catalyst and truthfully, I need another month or two before I can say I have really finished "mastering" it.

I've never known anyone to recycle gank characters in order to avoid security status (if it's a dedicated ganking character, there's really zero point) - it's so trivial to fix. Drop a few hundred million on clone tags or head out to NPC null and ishtar all of the things.
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1280 - 2014-07-05 06:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DJentropy Ovaert
Sentamon wrote:

... and we need to quit talking like there are meaningful consequences for ganking in highsec. There are none.


baltec1 wrote:

Aside from the fact that at -10 you are open to attack from everyone and cannot stay in any place longer then 30 seconds or have the faction navy warp in and kill you.


I think that the OP meant to say that there are no meaningful consequences for ganking that he understands or has taken the time to read about :-(

Sentamon, beyond not being able to stay on any drive for longer then about 30 seconds, every single gank results in a kill right on you. For example: DJentropy has HUNDREDS of kill rights, many of them open to everyone for 0 isk. Now, as a -10 character that really does not matter very much, but it denies me the ability to buy some clone tags and repair my sec status - as people will just activate the kill right and pew pew pew. Sure, I can use an alt to clear those 0 ISK kill rights. One at a time. Every 15 mins. Looking over my list here and grabbing the trusty calculator - I'd need to devote about 204 hours of RL time to clear all my 0 ISK kill rights. Then, I could move onto the ones that I would have to pay ISK for - and I don't even want to do the math on that.

I'm sorry you don't see any consequences - but as one who has done a gank or two in his time, I can assure you the amount of time and ISK that would be required for me to return to the state before I ever ganked anything would be amazing. As in, tens of billions of ISK and many many many hours of effort.

Also there is the whole thing about everyone in the game being able to shoot me at any given time anywhere. That feels like a bit of a consequence to me. :-)