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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1841 - 2014-04-29 01:52:50 UTC
Absolutely late, and I don't know if the devs are still monitoring this thread, but


With the changes to POS which force/encourage people to put their valuables inside the POS itself, I assume one of the desired goals is to see more blown up (or at least attacked, defended, glorious player content etc).


Which is great, except...



POS structures do not display their contents when destroyed. Only the SMA does. If I destroy a lab containing a T2 BPO, I want to know. A 50% roll of the die says I won't know.


So CCP, would you please fix POS killmails?
Geezelbub
Barely Illegal
#1842 - 2014-04-29 02:07:29 UTC
[quote=Loraine Gess]I am a Kill mail HO[quote]


While we are at it....Riddle me this....

Why does a POS Battery, with all the huge electronics suite possible, have the lock time of a Jammed Freighter?


Just wanna help with your Kill Mails! P
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1843 - 2014-04-29 02:57:26 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from the mining frigate all ORE ship BPO's originate at ORE stations out in low/null and only available in the high-sec market if someone brings them there.


Yes.

Quote:
Also the biggest ship that can be built in High-sec POS I know for sure is the Orca, I suspect you can build Freighters either Jump or standard at the very least in a station. (I'll admit building Freighters is outside my interest so haven't vest much time on possibility of high-sec fabrication) Even if the anchoring restrictions are lifted there won't be any notable increase in there production or research. Especially if the BP has to be at the POS, it takes around 2 months to increase 1 ME or Copy a 1 run BPC, and roughly 7days to build (of course with better skills it would be less... but not much). The cost to do it at a station would be astronomical.


I really am amazed at how fearful some HS industry types are. Its amazing you even undock. Seriously what is the risk of having the BPO in the POS? A war dec? You have 24 hours to get out there and get it safe.

Yeah, you could be ganked doing that, but geez, undock a few alts and it isn't like somebody is going to bubble the station. A couple of insta docking book marks on the station and you should be fine. Play smarter, not like a wuss.

Quote:
Granted I don't see every small or medium size corp even wanting to build Orcas regularly or even at all especially with BPO's it would be too much isk to tie up in a specific single (or grouped) asset. This is one of the common big cases where risk assessment would limit it to significantly large corporations to have a standing defense to provide the BPC market which smaller corps usually are the main consumers before some venture into the investment to produce their own BPC's for sale fueling competition.


I'm pretty sure you can build a freighter or even a JF in a station at the moment. You really are trying to get your panites in a knot, but some research on what you can and can't do in station might be a good idea. Unless the proposed changes that ships like a freighter must be built in an x-large ship assembly array is part of the changes you are getting worked up about not much.


About that play smarter part, sure you can cancel the job and get your bpo back, If its being researched and you get your BPO out you likely loose a lot of research time. Guess than can be a big deal or not. If its a manufacture job then you loose all of your materials and the build times of the components. Now we are talking some serous isk for most any toon in the game, got any idea how many successful sells you need to make to get back the material loss of one orca job ? Not sure who is wearing the "panites" so I will not even get into the "wuss" aspects of high sec so called PvP corps placing a wardec on a bunch of miners or manufactures to pop a POS.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1844 - 2014-04-29 04:44:24 UTC
Flash Phoenix wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from the mining frigate all ORE ship BPO's originate at ORE stations out in low/null and only available in the high-sec market if someone brings them there.


Yes.

Quote:
Also the biggest ship that can be built in High-sec POS I know for sure is the Orca, I suspect you can build Freighters either Jump or standard at the very least in a station. (I'll admit building Freighters is outside my interest so haven't vest much time on possibility of high-sec fabrication) Even if the anchoring restrictions are lifted there won't be any notable increase in there production or research. Especially if the BP has to be at the POS, it takes around 2 months to increase 1 ME or Copy a 1 run BPC, and roughly 7days to build (of course with better skills it would be less... but not much). The cost to do it at a station would be astronomical.


I really am amazed at how fearful some HS industry types are. Its amazing you even undock. Seriously what is the risk of having the BPO in the POS? A war dec? You have 24 hours to get out there and get it safe.

Yeah, you could be ganked doing that, but geez, undock a few alts and it isn't like somebody is going to bubble the station. A couple of insta docking book marks on the station and you should be fine. Play smarter, not like a wuss.

Quote:
Granted I don't see every small or medium size corp even wanting to build Orcas regularly or even at all especially with BPO's it would be too much isk to tie up in a specific single (or grouped) asset. This is one of the common big cases where risk assessment would limit it to significantly large corporations to have a standing defense to provide the BPC market which smaller corps usually are the main consumers before some venture into the investment to produce their own BPC's for sale fueling competition.


I'm pretty sure you can build a freighter or even a JF in a station at the moment. You really are trying to get your panites in a knot, but some research on what you can and can't do in station might be a good idea. Unless the proposed changes that ships like a freighter must be built in an x-large ship assembly array is part of the changes you are getting worked up about not much.


About that play smarter part, sure you can cancel the job and get your bpo back, If its being researched and you get your BPO out you likely loose a lot of research time. Guess than can be a big deal or not. If its a manufacture job then you loose all of your materials and the build times of the components. Now we are talking some serous isk for most any toon in the game, got any idea how many successful sells you need to make to get back the material loss of one orca job ? Not sure who is wearing the "panites" so I will not even get into the "wuss" aspects of high sec so called PvP corps placing a wardec on a bunch of miners or manufactures to pop a POS.


Sure but better than losing the manufacturing materials AND the BPO.

Your bigger problem will be if NS alliances decide to dec you/industry guys to make your lives harder and slow you down so that they can capture a larger share of the market.

HS war dec corps are mostly...meh...
Flay Nardieu
#1845 - 2014-04-29 06:03:56 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Flash Phoenix wrote:


About that play smarter part, sure you can cancel the job and get your bpo back, If its being researched and you get your BPO out you likely loose a lot of research time. Guess than can be a big deal or not. If its a manufacture job then you loose all of your materials and the build times of the components. Now we are talking some serous isk for most any toon in the game, got any idea how many successful sells you need to make to get back the material loss of one orca job ? Not sure who is wearing the "panites" so I will not even get into the "wuss" aspects of high sec so called PvP corps placing a wardec on a bunch of miners or manufactures to pop a POS.


Sure but better than losing the manufacturing materials AND the BPO.

Your bigger problem will be if NS alliances decide to dec you/industry guys to make your lives harder and slow you down so that they can capture a larger share of the market.

HS war dec corps are mostly...meh...


Quote management needs an overhaul Lol

Thank you Flash for pointing out the existing risk, I glossd over that part and you probably made the point better than I could, definitely in context of my quoted post removed from the quote chain.

In regards to commentary made by Kun'ii

There has been an increase of very capable PvP mercenary High-sec corps since the POCO in high was introduced. Their interest in taking out space based assets would shift from the undefended POCO to more actively engaging an armed POS. The operational premise of such groups is the pursuit of war on a contractual basis to either destroy assets or hamper productivity. That is a much more present, viable, and likely threat. That minority which is growing in numbers is a threat greater than the rest of the majority of high-sec war to be annoying groups combined, and with reasonable risk-assessment more than bulk of null-sec corps and alliances who could only use a subset of their member base and change from accustomed strategies.

The groups that practice the art of war seriously in high-sec have done so in the confines of a restricted system forcing greater proficiency to compensate for less flexibility. Dismissing them lightly is to be either under informed or foolish.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1846 - 2014-04-29 07:18:38 UTC
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Flash Phoenix wrote:


About that play smarter part, sure you can cancel the job and get your bpo back, If its being researched and you get your BPO out you likely loose a lot of research time. Guess than can be a big deal or not. If its a manufacture job then you loose all of your materials and the build times of the components. Now we are talking some serous isk for most any toon in the game, got any idea how many successful sells you need to make to get back the material loss of one orca job ? Not sure who is wearing the "panites" so I will not even get into the "wuss" aspects of high sec so called PvP corps placing a wardec on a bunch of miners or manufactures to pop a POS.


Sure but better than losing the manufacturing materials AND the BPO.

Your bigger problem will be if NS alliances decide to dec you/industry guys to make your lives harder and slow you down so that they can capture a larger share of the market.

HS war dec corps are mostly...meh...


Quote management needs an overhaul Lol

Thank you Flash for pointing out the existing risk, I glossd over that part and you probably made the point better than I could, definitely in context of my quoted post removed from the quote chain.

In regards to commentary made by Kun'ii

There has been an increase of very capable PvP mercenary High-sec corps since the POCO in high was introduced. Their interest in taking out space based assets would shift from the undefended POCO to more actively engaging an armed POS. The operational premise of such groups is the pursuit of war on a contractual basis to either destroy assets or hamper productivity. That is a much more present, viable, and likely threat. That minority which is growing in numbers is a threat greater than the rest of the majority of high-sec war to be annoying groups combined, and with reasonable risk-assessment more than bulk of null-sec corps and alliances who could only use a subset of their member base and change from accustomed strategies.

The groups that practice the art of war seriously in high-sec have done so in the confines of a restricted system forcing greater proficiency to compensate for less flexibility. Dismissing them lightly is to be either under informed or foolish.


Taking out a POCO vs. a HS dickstar are two very different things.

Even with a full fleet taking down a dickstar is going to be tedious work. And since hitting a HS research POS will produce a fight with probability 0, I doubt you have much to worry about beyond your hypotheticals.
Flay Nardieu
#1847 - 2014-04-29 09:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Flay Nardieu
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Taking out a POCO vs. a HS dickstar are two very different things.

Even with a full fleet taking down a dickstar is going to be tedious work. And since hitting a HS research POS will produce a fight with probability 0, I doubt you have much to worry about beyond your hypotheticals.


I've never even considered trying to anchor a male exotic dancer let alone male known for their work in the sex industry in space.. Lol

Levity aside for deliberate error in term meant to insult high-sec POS operators. Such comments lend one to believe that arguments previously made whether or not based on valid premises are originated from prejudice, contempt and/or ignorance. * Market speculation and threat assessment are both based on hypothetical scenarios and projections.

As much as I enjoy the debate, it is apparent that it will degenerate further serving only to further under cut the validity of your arguments and force me to convey ideas in a public forum to degree of precision that is more suited to a technical paper or legal brief. So I concede to the fact I can no longer offer a debate with you within the limits of what I find tolerable in perception of arrogance, elitism, and pretension, in my posts. Although no one has voiced that opinion yet many may already have it and further posts at this degree verbal complexity would add more and reinforce such misunderstanding.

Anyway hopefully we as community get some feedback from Devs soon, there is very little left to debate constructively. With luck I can go back to more casual toned posts that are easier to understand.

Edit: Left intact but struck through portion that turns out to be an actual term. I felt it was more proper to edit at source than add another post. I was in wrong in that specific instance. Text after the strike through may no longer fully apply to quote or poster but is valid on general idea.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1848 - 2014-04-29 14:02:04 UTC
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Taking out a POCO vs. a HS dickstar are two very different things.

Even with a full fleet taking down a dickstar is going to be tedious work. And since hitting a HS research POS will produce a fight with probability 0, I doubt you have much to worry about beyond your hypotheticals.


I've never even considered trying to anchor a male exotic dancer let alone male known for their work in the sex industry in space.. Lol

Levity aside for deliberate error in term meant to insult high-sec POS operators. Such comments lend one to believe that arguments previously made whether or not based on valid premises are originated from prejudice, contempt and/or ignorance. Market speculation and threat assessment are both based on hypothetical scenarios and projections.

As much as I enjoy the debate, it is apparent that it will degenerate further serving only to further under cut the validity of your arguments and force me to convey ideas in a public forum to degree of precision that is more suited to a technical paper or legal brief. So I concede to the fact I can no longer offer a debate with you within the limits of what I find tolerable in perception of arrogance, elitism, and pretension, in my posts. Although no one has voiced that opinion yet many may already have it and further posts at this degree verbal complexity would add more and reinforce such misunderstanding.

Anyway hopefully we as community get some feedback from Devs soon, there is very little left to debate constructively. With luck I can go back to more casual toned posts that are easier to understand.


Levity....a dickstar is a thing in the game. It is a POS with a load of hardeners. The idea is to make the POS shoot very long and tedious, especially if you are doing it with sub caps.

A large POS in HS with enough hardeners will be very hard to take down except for the largest fleets since dropping dreads or supers is not an option.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1849 - 2014-04-29 16:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:


  • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
  • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.


    • Laboratories:

    More details on what's happening to them since slots are going away.

    Mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)

    • Advanced Mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5)

    • Hyasyoda mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1850 - 2014-04-29 17:02:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.
Hyasyoda mobile labs:

  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.4 (was 0.5)

Kerblammo!

This time multiplier is equivalent to a Tier 3 Caldari Outpost upgrade. That's an additional 40b we don't have to spend while upgrading our space, so thanks for that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1851 - 2014-04-29 17:05:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.
Hyasyoda mobile labs:

  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.4 (was 0.5)

Kerblammo!

This time multiplier is equivalent to a Tier 3 Caldari Outpost upgrade. That's an additional 40b we don't have to spend while upgrading our space, so thanks for that.


Arrrrgg EvilPirateEvilOopsShockedEvil

DELETE ALL THE OUTPOSTS!

More seriously: will balance time on Hyasoyda lab for that not to happen. Probably tune it down to 0.43 or leave it at 0.45.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1852 - 2014-04-29 17:06:14 UTC
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1853 - 2014-04-29 17:08:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.
    • oh god yes, please please please

    it's the small ones (component, probably ammo, other ones like that) that badly need extra space - larger ship ones don't (and are sometimes used as larger storage hangars).

    Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #1854 - 2014-04-29 17:10:32 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Arrrrgg EvilPirateEvilOopsShockedEvil

    DELETE ALL THE OUTPOSTS!

    More seriously: will balance time on Hyasoyda lab for that not to happen. Probably tune it down to 0.43 or leave it at 0.45.

    Darn -- I was seriously thanking you for reducing our outpost upgrade costs :V

    But yeah, that is a good idea.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Valterra Craven
    #1855 - 2014-04-29 17:12:03 UTC
    Weaselior wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.
    • oh god yes, please please please

    it's the small ones (component, probably ammo, other ones like that) that badly need extra space - larger ship ones don't (and are sometimes used as larger storage hangars).



    I never understood the reasoning behind all this in the first. in Real Life assembly arrays don't store materials or finished products, they get them from storage and put them there.

    Personally I think you should make hanger arrays massive and remove storage from all the other facilities, that way things can be stored and managed from one spot...
    Gilbaron
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1856 - 2014-04-29 17:15:41 UTC
    Quote:
    I never understood the reasoning behind all this in the first. in Real Life assembly arrays don't store materials or finished products, they get them from storage and put them there.

    Personally I think you should make hanger arrays massive and remove storage from all the other facilities, that way things can be stored and managed from one spot...


    the POS code does a lot of things. most importantly, it does not make sense
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #1857 - 2014-04-29 17:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
    Querns wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Arrrrgg EvilPirateEvilOopsShockedEvil

    DELETE ALL THE OUTPOSTS!

    More seriously: will balance time on Hyasoyda lab for that not to happen. Probably tune it down to 0.43 or leave it at 0.45.

    Darn -- I was seriously thanking you for reducing our outpost upgrade costs :V

    But yeah, that is a good idea.


    I checked the viability of Starbases copy lines versus Gallente Outposts, but completely forgot about Invention versus Caldari Outposts.

    Outposts have to have a small advantage next to the cost, which was a good point, even if unintentional P


    Also people, listing use cases of which Starbase structures have too small cargoholds next to everyday practical use will help a lot in the balancing, so please keep that coming.

    EDIT: fixed invention time multiplier on Hyasodiaaarrwhatever mobile laboratory to 0.45 in the previous post.
    Gilbaron
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1858 - 2014-04-29 17:22:13 UTC
    i guess being able to drop a freighterload full of the stuff usually used in each of the arrays would be a nice start.
    Uncle Shrimpa
    Lap Dancers
    Brothers of Tangra
    #1859 - 2014-04-29 17:24:52 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Another update.

    Assembly Arrays:


    • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
    • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
    • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.


      • Laboratories:

      More details on what's happening to them since slots are going away.

      Mobile labs:
    • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)

      • Advanced Mobile labs:
    • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5)

      • Hyasyoda mobile labs:
    • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75)
    • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)



    So Amarr stations get 5% reduction in materials, but POS gets 2% reduction, or do they stack??

    CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
    Uncle Shrimpa
    Lap Dancers
    Brothers of Tangra
    #1860 - 2014-04-29 17:26:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Querns wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Arrrrgg EvilPirateEvilOopsShockedEvil

    DELETE ALL THE OUTPOSTS!

    More seriously: will balance time on Hyasoyda lab for that not to happen. Probably tune it down to 0.43 or leave it at 0.45.

    Darn -- I was seriously thanking you for reducing our outpost upgrade costs :V

    But yeah, that is a good idea.


    I checked the viability of Starbases copy lines versus Gallente Outposts, but completely forgot about Invention versus Caldari Outposts.

    Outposts have to have a small advantage next to the cost, which was a good point, even if unintentional P


    Also people, listing use cases of which Starbase structures have too small cargoholds next to everyday practical use will help a lot in the balancing, so please keep that coming.

    EDIT: fixed invention time multiplier on Hyasodiaaarrwhatever mobile laboratory to 0.45 in the previous post.


    For cargo on CAA, if it is anything less than a Titan worth of materials, the remote skill is useless, cause SOMEONE will have to go to the pos and play mineral Tetris

    CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)