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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Barune Darkor
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1801 - 2014-04-26 19:42:50 UTC
@Flay

Thanks for being civil, which doesn't seem to happen much in this thread.

This is very much from a small indie corp perspective.


Here's hoping ccp figures out some type of solution that doesn't involve copying everything.

Cheers,
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#1802 - 2014-04-27 07:05:03 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Petrified wrote:


I am very, very curious what the in-game reason will be for some third party taxation of research jobs run by a corporation in a POS. Are we paying for researchers to research for us (in which case, do we need research skills? P)? The reason would have to be consistent across Empire, Null Sec, and Wormhole space. Do we need to supply researchers for the POS?


Apart from that...

Could you please make POS inventories truly unified? As in: Materials in Mobile lab 1 can be used by Mobile lab 2 and if that Assembly array is short Tritanium it can pull it from Mobile Lab 3 because the inventory is unified? This would simplify POS industrial management considerably.

Think about it as a line cost more than a 'tax'. Since the money is vanishing to thin air, not going to an entity. So doing jobs actually costs isk. you have to pay 'workers', buy materials, etc. The more congested the facility is, the more it costs to add an extra 'worker'.

Once you put it in that kind of mindset, it stops being unreasonable that a POS has to pay costs also.


You are making assumptions I would like clarified from the Devs as to their logic. We can rationalize it this way and that, but in the end the current facts are:
- When a BPO/BPC needs materials, it is listed as part of the cost of research and industry.
- I've spent a decent amount of time training research skills... why would I hire researchers who are not present on the predominately auto-mated POS?

It would make better sense for CCP to add a consumable "widget" necessary to aid the research with your reason. No, I would like CCPs actual take on the why.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#1803 - 2014-04-27 07:06:26 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


And when the devblog on Teams comes out, we'll have our answer to the question about third-party taxation of jobs run by a corporation in a POS or outpost. What I expect to see is NPCs that we pay to do our research for us.


I am hoping that this gets answered at least there, if not here.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1804 - 2014-04-27 07:15:54 UTC
Petrified wrote:

- I've spent a decent amount of time training research skills... why would I hire researchers who are not present on the predominately auto-mated POS?



The professor at my old Uni spent a long time becoming such, why then would he need a good chunk of the material science faculty to help research and develop graphene? Your character is effectively the lead researcher but there is no way you would have the time to run all the experiments, gather all results, run all analysis, re-reun everything again , refine processes and reactions, rerun yet again...

I'm fine with the idea of needing research assistance since it makes absolute sense that you would.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#1805 - 2014-04-27 07:55:20 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Petrified wrote:

- I've spent a decent amount of time training research skills... why would I hire researchers who are not present on the predominately auto-mated POS?



The professor at my old Uni spent a long time becoming such, why then would he need a good chunk of the material science faculty to help research and develop graphene? Your character is effectively the lead researcher but there is no way you would have the time to run all the experiments, gather all results, run all analysis, re-reun everything again , refine processes and reactions, rerun yet again...

I'm fine with the idea of needing research assistance since it makes absolute sense that you would.


I would be fine with it as well... if that is the reason they give. What I am looking for is the reasoning for such a 'tax'.

All this time I figured the with state of our advanced technology in the EVE universe we predominately used automation for research tasks which revolved around pre-existing blue prints: ie, we are making it more efficient, or making copies, through automated technology rather than making something new and fresh - like an actual BPO for a new ship design that would require an actual researcher of the sort we keep rescuing for various corporations. It used to be that the cost of POS fuel (pre-fuel block) at one point took into account the various functions going on in a POS. Research modules used more of X than Manufacturing modules (been long enough I forget the exact numbers of which items).

So... if I am now paying people to conduct research: why do I need them after this summer when I did not before and if I did need them before and we just never talked about them, will I owe them back pay? Blink

One other thing I did not see a dev response on (or I forgot it after 90+ pages): I fully understand the scaling cost for manufacturing - in fact, it makes perfect sense. However, the removal of the slots themselves make no sense at all in that there is suddenly an endless number of manufacturing lines. Should limits on the number of corporate offices be removed while retaining the scaling cost? Twisted

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1806 - 2014-04-27 08:57:54 UTC
Actually rather than endless lines i would have preferred just the opening up of more moons for pos. I would also prefer that regions of null that have been under one sov control for a length of time gained npc stations to reflect the stabilty provided by the sov. This would have given more research etc lines in sov and made s&i viable. Null absolutely does not need more buffs. Of all things s&i should be a level playing field to my mind. Null already has better resources available to exploit the increased resources they have.
Flay Nardieu
#1807 - 2014-04-27 09:57:07 UTC
I have the feeling even if this thread goes another 90 pages and thousand upon thousand of posts, ending in a fair and realistic consensus of what the changes should be and even supporting them in a logical manner the player community understands and accepts. There will still be a huge amount of pet theories by different design aspect personal or some sort of social-engineering agenda that even an armada of ever titan in the game firing at once concentrating at the same point couldn't punch a pinhole through.

That aside this debate should be educating the less experienced, confusing some while giving clarity to others. This is common ground no matter where you locate you character. Personally, I believe discussions like this with strengthen the Eve community Big smile

Summary of my positions:

  • Keep remote jobs from station office for POS work
  • Keep anchoring restrictions in High-sec
  • No forcing taxes, fees, surcharges to Player owned space assets anywhere*
  • No social-engineering, maintaining balance in a game is one thing but to change something to specifically manipulate player base is a no-no
  • Placeholder for something I've obviously forgot


*Exceptions: Fixed surcharge on "Com Traffic concept or similar" of blueprints being located a station office (prefer not, butt....)
Scaling cost of lines in a player owned outposts, but ONLY if line scaling is optional and the cost is somehow reflected by some resource needed, increased draw on an auxillary power source, something like that. Definitely not some isk black hole



Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1808 - 2014-04-27 10:12:17 UTC
Industry is finally getting some attention. Excellent changes so far.

The Tears Must Flow

Axe Coldon
#1809 - 2014-04-27 15:39:36 UTC
Well I am bit surprised no one cares about the removal of being able to remote research and remote copy bpo's.

I think it will cripple the cap copy set business..but maybe I am wrong. Maybe those that make copies for a living will do it in stations.

At anyone time there are only 6-8 nyx copy sets available in the whole universe. Oneguy I know is going to stop..but he just does it as a side income and doesn't need the isk. And takes 2 months to make a copy..but can only list them for 2 weeks..so rough math 8 weeks divided by 2 weeks x 8 sets max listed is all of 32 people. to supply copy sets to 500,000 people. LOL don't you just love over simplification!

The only good I see in the change is not needing a high sec research pos anymore. Because I sure as hell am not going to risk putting bpo's in a pos. I mean if a bpo is cheap who makes copies anyways. Just build off the original. The whole thing of remote research is safe guarding expensive bpo's and building from copies instead of moving the originals around.

I do think if they remove the standings restriction there will be many more high sec pos's. And from an miner standpoint, that will be good as they can use them to refine and compress. But I also see being hard to find a spot to put up a pos. All the good systems already have pos's on all the moons. but eve is big and lots of moons..true..also lots of players.

I always thought it would be cool to let others research in your pos. By remote..but then can charge them a line (copy or research) fee. But I guess that will never happen.. And don't get me started on the horrible pos permissions.

They (ccp) just need to suck it up and fix pos code. remove the need to be next to a moon!

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1810 - 2014-04-27 17:07:34 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
Well I am bit surprised no one cares about the removal of being able to remote research and remote copy bpo's.


Actually there has been lots of commentary on this and usually in the negative.

Quote:
The only good I see in the change is not needing a high sec research pos anymore. Because I sure as hell am not going to risk putting bpo's in a pos. I mean if a bpo is cheap who makes copies anyways. Just build off the original. The whole thing of remote research is safe guarding expensive bpo's and building from copies instead of moving the originals around.


Well, it depends on the costs doesn't it. Sure, when you put your BPOs in the labs in a POS the POS could be attacked and destroyed...if you are completely foolish. You get a notification that you have been war decced. You have 24 hours to remove said BPOs before your POS can be shot. And depending on who decs you and your POS set up even that might not be a huge issue (remember in HS the POS can only be shot by sub-caps, and lots of war dec corps have a handful of people).

At the same time, if the cost of doing things in station is high enough, then the POS may start to look attractive even with the increased risks. Just remember...put some strontium in your freaking tower for the love of God.

Quote:
I do think if they remove the standings restriction there will be many more high sec pos's. And from an miner standpoint, that will be good as they can use them to refine and compress. But I also see being hard to find a spot to put up a pos. All the good systems already have pos's on all the moons. but eve is big and lots of moons..true..also lots of players.


You appear to be contradicting yourself. First you tell us there will be far fewer research POS in HS...now you are saying there will be lots more POS...why? Why have a POS in HS if not for research? Moon mining? Nope, doesn't work. A safe tower for moving caps...nope, can't bring caps into HS (well okay the JF, but still you can't cyno in to HS) again, nope. Staging POS? What for?

If people start tearing down their research POS en masse as you note above then this paragraph of yours makes no sense. People might, as you say set up POS for compressing ore, but now we have two countervailing effects. Removing research POS reduces the number of POS, whereas ore compression POS increase the number of POS. Net effect? I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

My guess is some research POS will come down, some will remain up. Some new POS will go up for ore compression and the overall result will be there will still be lots of moons that are free.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1811 - 2014-04-27 17:09:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Petrified wrote:


I am very, very curious what the in-game reason will be for some third party taxation of research jobs run by a corporation in a POS. Are we paying for researchers to research for us (in which case, do we need research skills? P)? The reason would have to be consistent across Empire, Null Sec, and Wormhole space. Do we need to supply researchers for the POS?


Apart from that...

Could you please make POS inventories truly unified? As in: Materials in Mobile lab 1 can be used by Mobile lab 2 and if that Assembly array is short Tritanium it can pull it from Mobile Lab 3 because the inventory is unified? This would simplify POS industrial management considerably.

Think about it as a line cost more than a 'tax'. Since the money is vanishing to thin air, not going to an entity. So doing jobs actually costs isk. you have to pay 'workers', buy materials, etc. The more congested the facility is, the more it costs to add an extra 'worker'.

Once you put it in that kind of mindset, it stops being unreasonable that a POS has to pay costs also.


It is still being implemented as a per unit tax. The fact that the isk vanishes just means that the inefficiencies the line cost/tax is imposing is considerably larger than it would be if the tax were somehow spent in the EVE economy somewhere.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1812 - 2014-04-27 17:15:55 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
Mynnna's post is informative if not entirely on-point.

I don't think anybody cares whether all industry moves to nullsec. What people care about is whether the majority of industrial profits move to nullsec. Mynnna hedges in the article about whether this will happen. We need to see the numbers from the next few dev blogs to be able to make better predictions about that.


Of course. We haven't even internally decided how to do final exploitation of the new mechanics until we see all the final blogs. However, from what has been released, its clear the high margins of some types of productions are going to get compressed. by nullsec. To claim doom and gloom for highsec production though is laughable. Those of you in sweet spots like JF's are going to get creamed though.


So bottom line, goons will control any high profit product, and leave the dregs for high sec .
Good to know.

Yeah, congrats.
Well played on how you designed these changes to explicitly benefit the cartels.


Yeah, competition is so awful isn't it.

Oh wait, it usually increases output, lowers prices (and in RL often increases employment).

Roll

Obviously you are all about what is good for the EVE economy and not our own personal wallet.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1813 - 2014-04-27 17:35:56 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
Mynnna's post is informative if not entirely on-point.

I don't think anybody cares whether all industry moves to nullsec. What people care about is whether the majority of industrial profits move to nullsec. Mynnna hedges in the article about whether this will happen. We need to see the numbers from the next few dev blogs to be able to make better predictions about that.


Of course. We haven't even internally decided how to do final exploitation of the new mechanics until we see all the final blogs. However, from what has been released, its clear the high margins of some types of productions are going to get compressed. by nullsec. To claim doom and gloom for highsec production though is laughable. Those of you in sweet spots like JF's are going to get creamed though.


So bottom line, goons will control any high profit product, and leave the dregs for high sec .
Good to know.

Yeah, congrats.
Well played on how you designed these changes to explicitly benefit the cartels.


Yeah, competition is so awful isn't it.



Oh wait, it usually increases output, lowers prices (and in RL often increases employment).

Roll

Obviously you are all about what is good for the EVE economy and not our own personal wallet.


If you think these changes are about increasing "competition" within Eve's economy, you are truly obtuse.
Given the corp you are in, and the tone of your previous posts, you are more likely in full Orwell mode.
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1814 - 2014-04-27 18:16:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


If you think these changes are about increasing "competition" within Eve's economy, you are truly obtuse.
Given the corp you are in, and the tone of your previous posts, you are more likely in full Orwell mode.


It is right there in the quote you pulled.

Quote:
However, from what has been released, its clear the high margins of some types of productions are going to get compressed. by nullsec. To claim doom and gloom for highsec production though is laughable. Those of you in sweet spots like JF's are going to get creamed though.


Let me translate this for you:

Competition with nullsec, specifically in high marging markets, will take place because of null sec.

Then you wrote:

Quote:
Well played on how you designed these changes to explicitly benefit the cartels.


Of course, you went on to say that the "cartels"--i.e. null sec alliances and coalitions--will "control" these markets. Which of course is stupid. It has already been pointed out that the slot tax will impact both NS and HS. You have asserted it wont impact null as much, but you provide nothing to support this claim.

Further, NS has a transportation/logistics issue. It is not as easy to source low ends in NS. If they are sourced in HS they still cost isk in terms of ice products (i.e. jump fuel). Also, you often have only 1 station/outpost in sov NS vs. multiple stations in HS systems.

Also, there IS increased risk in NS despite what blithering boobs like Mord Fiddle and Ripard Teg claim. If Goons or anyone else sets up a highly lucrative JF business (and are relying on POSes) then hostiles can drop dreads and supers on those POSes. That is an impossible outcome in HS. Granted it could be done in outposts, but then go back to the 1 outpost/system constraint....HS does not always have that issue.

Finally, even if NS was able to take all of a given market they cannot charge whatever price they want. They are limited by the potential competition of HS. That is, suppose Goons, in their evil and nefarious ways, manage to take the entire JF market. They cannot double or triple prices because at such a profit margin even if I have to pay a 14% cost increase to make JFs in HS I absolutely will and undercut the goon suppliers. And I'll do it on anonymous alts that they will never trace back to me....if they even care (which they probably wont).

You have had years of protected industry...now you are losing it and complaining bitterly. We get it already. You can stop.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1815 - 2014-04-27 18:44:10 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


If you think these changes are about increasing "competition" within Eve's economy, you are truly obtuse.
Given the corp you are in, and the tone of your previous posts, you are more likely in full Orwell mode.


It is right there in the quote you pulled.

Quote:
However, from what has been released, its clear the high margins of some types of productions are going to get compressed. by nullsec. To claim doom and gloom for highsec production though is laughable. Those of you in sweet spots like JF's are going to get creamed though.


Let me translate this for you:

Competition with nullsec, specifically in high marging markets, will take place because of null sec.

Then you wrote:

Quote:
Well played on how you designed these changes to explicitly benefit the cartels.


Of course, you went on to say that the "cartels"--i.e. null sec alliances and coalitions--will "control" these markets. Which of course is stupid. It has already been pointed out that the slot tax will impact both NS and HS. You have asserted it wont impact null as much, but you provide nothing to support this claim.

Further, NS has a transportation/logistics issue. It is not as easy to source low ends in NS. If they are sourced in HS they still cost isk in terms of ice products (i.e. jump fuel). Also, you often have only 1 station/outpost in sov NS vs. multiple stations in HS systems.

Also, there IS increased risk in NS despite what blithering boobs like Mord Fiddle and Ripard Teg claim. If Goons or anyone else sets up a highly lucrative JF business (and are relying on POSes) then hostiles can drop dreads and supers on those POSes. That is an impossible outcome in HS. Granted it could be done in outposts, but then go back to the 1 outpost/system constraint....HS does not always have that issue.

Finally, even if NS was able to take all of a given market they cannot charge whatever price they want. They are limited by the potential competition of HS. That is, suppose Goons, in their evil and nefarious ways, manage to take the entire JF market. They cannot double or triple prices because at such a profit margin even if I have to pay a 14% cost increase to make JFs in HS I absolutely will and undercut the goon suppliers. And I'll do it on anonymous alts that they will never trace back to me....if they even care (which they probably wont).

You have had years of protected industry...now you are losing it and complaining bitterly. We get it already. You can stop.


When one of the chief architects of these changes states flatly that goons will control any market they want when this is implemented, that is all I need to know about the intent of these changes.

You can pound away all day with your talk of risk and transportation costs, but we all know what the real risk level is, and transportation costs on small volume, big ticket items like DCII's will be trivial, and on large items like JF's, your advantage will be so huge cost wise that transport costs will also end up being trivial.

Further, the only people needing JF's soon will be null sec pilots bringing high value loads to declining high sec hubs and returning to null with compressed ore, or when they are jumping to emerging null sec hubs. So there won't be a market for JF's anyway, not that any high sec players will be able to afford them.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1816 - 2014-04-27 19:09:53 UTC
What concerns me is that null is increasingly boosted and given the best of everything. Eve drew me in because of the varied choices, the chance to form industry in hisec, the risk of losec, the lure of nullsec. Pushing the best of everything to null simply leaves older players no choice but to go there or be left out in the cold and in my view that simply destroys the variety that set Eve apart. If you tell those who can't invest the time needed to live in nullsec that they are second class and somehow less important than those who PvP more predominantly then the game will lose nmany players eventually.

Balance needs to be across areas and careers available as well as by risk/reward. Null has a logistics problem for S&I and low end minerals? Good, that means effort is required to build stuff there just as it is in hisec to gather up and use moon goo etc for T2 production. Points have been made about the difficulties because of low number of slots on outposts and I'll take those at face value as I cannot comment on them and am glad of the extra information. I would rather the stable regions have gained NPC stations though, and then had them mothball over periods of instability. This would have benefited those who controlled a region for longer and allowed for more expanded S&I without giving extra benefits to the most resource rich regions.

Keep marginalizing hisec and pushing out casual players and Eve will suffer. Each area should have something it can be best at to give each playstyle something to aspire to and aim for. Those groups that organize across and utilize all areas would then benefit more even than one group controlling any one area.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1817 - 2014-04-27 19:17:29 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Yeah, competition is so awful isn't it.

Oh wait, it usually increases output, lowers prices (and in RL often increases employment).

Roll

Obviously you are all about what is good for the EVE economy and not our own personal wallet.

Competition would involve equal material costs. Because of the nearly 20% refining advantage Null has, that is equivalent to a mineral discount for building in Null, meaning it's not competition, it's blatant advantage.

Null has spent years screaming that a 2% disadvantage at max skills means they can't compete with highsec, now that it's on the other foot but ten times larger it's fair. That clearly says who's eye is actually on the personal wallet.
Flay Nardieu
#1818 - 2014-04-27 20:37:23 UTC
Could someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from the mining frigate all ORE ship BPO's originate at ORE stations out in low/null and only available in the high-sec market if someone brings them there.

Also the biggest ship that can be built in High-sec POS I know for sure is the Orca, I suspect you can build Freighters either Jump or standard at the very least in a station. (I'll admit building Freighters is outside my interest so haven't vest much time on possibility of high-sec fabrication) Even if the anchoring restrictions are lifted there won't be any notable increase in there production or research. Especially if the BP has to be at the POS, it takes around 2 months to increase 1 ME or Copy a 1 run BPC, and roughly 7days to build (of course with better skills it would be less... but not much). The cost to do it at a station would be astronomical.

Currently a BPC set for an Orca can run as low as 100mil many smaller indy corps take that route when first starting to scale up or team building project. Or 900mil to 1.7bil isk just for the Orca BPO itself plus about 500mil to 1 bill per subcomponet BPO. I've used the Orca as an example because of interconnection of null to high in its acquisition and production cycle.

Granted I don't see every small or medium size corp even wanting to build Orcas regularly or even at all especially with BPO's it would be too much isk to tie up in a specific single (or grouped) asset. This is one of the common big cases where risk assessment would limit it to significantly large corporations to have a standing defense to provide the BPC market which smaller corps usually are the main consumers before some venture into the investment to produce their own BPC's for sale fueling competition.

I say no to POS taxing/charges, I say no to decentralizing and removal to BP remote from station work, I say no to forcing player station/outposts to behave like NPC equivalents and into thin air isk charges associated.

That last bit sounded like I was running for office Lol
Davethethird
Kayama Technology
#1819 - 2014-04-28 00:34:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Davethethird wrote:

If you haven't already, please could you consider adding a "Deliver All Automatically" button to inventions etc. I'm not really interested in knowing how many jobs have failed or succeeded (If I want to know that I could choose to deliver manually) this is an intensive waste of time to have me clicking the deliver button 11 times per toon I am running invention jobs with etc. Please sort that out.

Hold down shift, click the first and the last one (so you select all of them) then hit deliver. Just keep tapping enter until the failed/succeeded windows stop popping up.

If you run your own personal altcorp you can install for corp and deliver all of your alt jobs at once using this method.



Thanks for the reply, I am well aware of how to deliver jobs having done this for some time, what I actually want is a deliver all button that means I don't have to keep spamming the enter button Lol that would be great and to be honest, in a game which tries to emulate reality in an unreal universe (oops, did I really say that, it is real... honest) then you would think that with all this technology, that we wouldn't need to be so manual and have to spam delivery buttons, surely any self respecting designer would have given us the option of manual vs auto!!!

I would rather not waste my time doing the needless points of indy, I want to waste the time killing and/or losing ships.Twisted
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1820 - 2014-04-28 01:59:52 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


When one of the chief architects of these changes states flatly that goons will control any market they want when this is implemented, that is all I need to know about the intent of these changes.


Oh where has he stated that?

And just because he says it does not make it true. I could say you are a turnip...are you really a turnip?

Quote:
You can pound away all day with your talk of risk and transportation costs, but we all know what the real risk level is, and transportation costs on small volume, big ticket items like DCII's will be trivial, and on large items like JF's, your advantage will be so huge cost wise that transport costs will also end up being trivial.


The cost is non-trivial (= 0). That is what trivial means.

You keep making bald faced statements without any support. How huge is the cost advantage for null? What about this change will make it huge?

Frankly, I think you are being completely dishonest here. You have yet to back up any statement I have seen by you with even the barest facts. Instead you rely on assumptions, speculation and out right nonsense.

Quote:
Further, the only people needing JF's soon will be null sec pilots bringing high value loads to declining high sec hubs and returning to null with compressed ore, or when they are jumping to emerging null sec hubs. So there won't be a market for JF's anyway, not that any high sec players will be able to afford them.


So you really do think these changes will result in a death spiral for the EVE economy?

Histrionics much?