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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#401 - 2014-04-15 19:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
theman428 wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Tippia wrote:
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.


They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.



thy for helping me out here but they actually did say they were going to speed it up i just missed it cause i was in shuch shock that they were going to do this.

"Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original."

but to ber fair even if they gave a 100% bounes to copy time it would still leave u with 86 days coping a titan BPO

Don't feel bad, apparently 95% of the people posting in this thread either missed or misinterpreted that part of the Blog as well.

I would point out that they never said that it would be quicker to make BPC's AND build the item than it is right now... only that the BPC creation part would be quicker.

It's highly likely that it will still take longer to make the BPC and then produce from it than it will takes to build straight from a BPO now.

I point this out as it should allay some of the fear's people have about production rates from T2 BPO's.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#402 - 2014-04-15 19:11:35 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
Tippia wrote:
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.


They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.


DEV-Blog wrote:

Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.


needing less time than manufacturing something out of it pretty much sounds like: making copies will always be faster.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#403 - 2014-04-15 19:13:06 UTC
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be



No one is going to put expensive BPOs in a low/null POS.

And with the inability to lockdown, corp theft is a real issue

So, the real con is the hassle of having to set up an alt corp, run a high sec large POS to do research and crank out BPCs. Then add the BPCs to regularly scheduled jump freighter runs.

Unnecessary grind with no game play value.



You cannot make us play stupid. You can only make us change our play style with unnecessary grind!


They need to reverse the decision to let you have the BPO in station. The change is NOT going to produce the intended game play risk/reward, and will only create pointless grind.
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#404 - 2014-04-15 19:14:39 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be



No one is going to put expensive BPOs in a low/null POS.

And with the inability to lockdown, corp theft is a real issue

So, the real con is the hassle of having to set up an alt corp, run a high sec large POS to do research and crank out BPCs. Then add the BPCs to regularly scheduled jump freighter runs.

Unnecessary grind with no game play value.



You cannot make us play stupid. You can only make us change our play style with unnecessary grind!


They need to reverse the decision to let you have the BPO in station. The change is NOT going to produce the intended game play risk/reward, and will only create pointless grind.



LArge Caldari Control towers D*ckstar setup will counter most high sec fleets
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#405 - 2014-04-15 19:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kadl wrote:
Something seems clearly wrong in your statements about supply and demand here. If as you say there is higher output for the T2 BPOs then either inventors will produce less or demand will increase. Demand increases when prices drop. Perhaps T2 inventors will merely have to accept a slightly smaller margin.

What's wrong is that you read too much into it — specifically, I'm not talking about demand at all. I'm saying that if BPO holders produce slightly more and inventors produce the same as ever, the difference in supply will be so small as to not have any appreciable effect.

Quote:
I can agree that we need to see the other changes. At the same time I think it is fine to note that we don't want to see an general increase in production from the T2 BPOs (without an increase in risk).
As luck would have it, there is an increase in risk that goes along with it if they want to really make full use of that increased output potential.

Ranger 1 wrote:
I would point out that they never said that it would be quicker to make BPC's AND build the item than it is right now... only that the BPC creation part would be quicker.

It's highly likely that it will still take longer to make the BPC and then produce from it than it will takes to build straight from a BPO now.

I point this out as it should allay some of the fear's people have about production rates from T2 BPO's.

Pretty much this. The BPC step introduces a delay that you have to pay if you don't want to put your BPOs at risk. With the way EVE players work, I'm going to flat out state that this delay will be universal. I'd also guess that what it means is that the total production time for any given BPO→full product process will be maybe 180% of what it currently is. So if you produce all your components and end products in series, the time from raw materials to final product will be immense; if you produce in parallel and properly stagger your copy/production queues, it'll just be as much longer as it takes to copy your “largest” BPO.

Copy slot congestion fees and research-capable characters will be the new bottleneck for industry. Coincidentally, this could potentially also make a number of science skills far more valuable to take to lvl V than they were before…
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#406 - 2014-04-15 19:15:03 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
7. Use of profanity is prohibited.

The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Myxx
Incredible.
#407 - 2014-04-15 19:16:20 UTC
Chanina wrote:
Allison A'vani wrote:
Tippia wrote:
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.


They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.


DEV-Blog wrote:

Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.


needing less time than manufacturing something out of it pretty much sounds like: making copies will always be faster.


I'll grant you that theoretically, there "could" come a time where we can output bpcs fast enough in our production cycle to consider selling off some extra copies... but with the risk of putting the production bpc into a starbase during production, having a stockpile of comps, extra bpcs and such just "in case" will probably be taken care of first. I don't really see this as a worthwhile concern for you. The security of the production chain is infinitely more important than short term profits found in selling bpcs off.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#408 - 2014-04-15 19:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
gifter Penken wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be



No one is going to put expensive BPOs in a low/null POS.

And with the inability to lockdown, corp theft is a real issue

So, the real con is the hassle of having to set up an alt corp, run a high sec large POS to do research and crank out BPCs. Then add the BPCs to regularly scheduled jump freighter runs.

Unnecessary grind with no game play value.



You cannot make us play stupid. You can only make us change our play style with unnecessary grind!


They need to reverse the decision to let you have the BPO in station. The change is NOT going to produce the intended game play risk/reward, and will only create pointless grind.

I sincerely doubt that many will put their BPO's even in high sec POS's for the purposes of copying.

Instead they will simply lock their BPO's down in an NPC station to make their BPC's, without resorting to creating an alt corp or risking them in a POS.

Unless they have their own outpost in Null of course, or are damn sure of their ability to defend a POS.

Hmmm, this could make Null Sec NPC stations a very interesting place to be, if there are any with research/copy capabilities. Smile (I haven't really paid attention to that before TBH)

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Thead Enco
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#409 - 2014-04-15 19:22:23 UTC
Hey look at it this way if 3/4 of the T2 BPO's die in an pool of napalm CCP will do another lottery so new players have a chance getting into that market.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#410 - 2014-04-15 19:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Thead Enco wrote:
Hey look at it this way if 3/4 of the T2 BPO's die in an pool of napalm CCP will do another lottery so new players have a chance getting into that market.

Big smile It is HIGHLY unlikely that any T2 BPO's will ever see the inside of a POS. However many will be seeing the copy labs for the first time in their existence.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#411 - 2014-04-15 19:25:32 UTC
Myxx wrote:

I'll grant you that theoretically, there "could" come a time where we can output bpcs fast enough in our production cycle to consider selling off some extra copies... but with the risk of putting the production bpc into a starbase during production, having a stockpile of comps, extra bpcs and such just "in case" will probably be taken care of first. I don't really see this as a worthwhile concern for you. The security of the production chain is infinitely more important than short term profits found in selling bpcs off.


I don't think you HAVE to put your BPCs into production at starbase. You currently can do it remotely, as do I with my bpcs at station. That goes away for both of us. But if you can now copy (just pulling some numbers) at the double rate than you can manufacture, you can increase your production output by just coping them on station and building them on station from those copies.
At the end of the day you may end up with more output than possible from manufacturing in station. Maybe it is less than producing remote on POS currently. And if you are currently producing at a pos, every material is already at risk. If you add a BPCs there that won't change that values much.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#412 - 2014-04-15 19:25:35 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be



No one is going to put expensive BPOs in a low/null POS.

And with the inability to lockdown, corp theft is a real issue

So, the real con is the hassle of having to set up an alt corp, run a high sec large POS to do research and crank out BPCs. Then add the BPCs to regularly scheduled jump freighter runs.

Unnecessary grind with no game play value.



You cannot make us play stupid. You can only make us change our play style with unnecessary grind!


They need to reverse the decision to let you have the BPO in station. The change is NOT going to produce the intended game play risk/reward, and will only create pointless grind.

I sincerely doubt that many will put their BPO's even in high sec POS's for the purposes of copying.

Instead they will simply lock their BPO's down in an NPC station to make their BPC's, without resorting to creating an alt corp or risking them in a POS.

Unless they have their own outpost in Null of course, or are damn sure of their ability to defend a POS.



The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#413 - 2014-04-15 19:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ranger 1 wrote:
Hmmm, this could make Null Sec NPC stations a very interesting place to be, if there are any with research/copy capabilities. Smile (I haven't really paid attention to that before TBH)

There are quite a few.

Right now, NPC null holds nearly 1000 copy slots and 2000 each of ME, PE, and invention.
It's still ⅓ behind lowsec and a third of what highsec has to offer, but there is a higher concentration in those few NPC systems.

Actually, to get a better picture of it in terms that will matter for the post-patch system:

NPC null: 970 copy slots and 10,400 manufacturing slots over 144 systems (6.7 / 72 per system).
Lowsec: 1,479 copy slots and 28,741 manufacturing slots over 306 systems (4.8 / 93 per system).
Highsec: 2,890 copy slots and 68,050 manufacturing slots over 650 systems (4.4 / 105 per system).

ME, PE, and invention slots are consistently 2× higher than the number of copy slots, since they come as a group.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#414 - 2014-04-15 19:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
gifter Penken wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be



No one is going to put expensive BPOs in a low/null POS.

And with the inability to lockdown, corp theft is a real issue

So, the real con is the hassle of having to set up an alt corp, run a high sec large POS to do research and crank out BPCs. Then add the BPCs to regularly scheduled jump freighter runs.

Unnecessary grind with no game play value.



You cannot make us play stupid. You can only make us change our play style with unnecessary grind!


They need to reverse the decision to let you have the BPO in station. The change is NOT going to produce the intended game play risk/reward, and will only create pointless grind.

I sincerely doubt that many will put their BPO's even in high sec POS's for the purposes of copying.

Instead they will simply lock their BPO's down in an NPC station to make their BPC's, without resorting to creating an alt corp or risking them in a POS.

Unless they have their own outpost in Null of course, or are damn sure of their ability to defend a POS.



The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.

Possibly, but that is conjecture at this point. With any BPO of value it's not really a serious consideration unless you are very brave, or very foolish.


Currently copying is very time consuming (mostly due to the wait time involved to get a slot). With that no longer a factor we'll have to see how the pricing scales.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#415 - 2014-04-15 19:31:05 UTC
why is there a tab called teams? multiple people working on one BP?
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#416 - 2014-04-15 19:31:08 UTC
Chanina wrote:
Myxx wrote:

I'll grant you that theoretically, there "could" come a time where we can output bpcs fast enough in our production cycle to consider selling off some extra copies... but with the risk of putting the production bpc into a starbase during production, having a stockpile of comps, extra bpcs and such just "in case" will probably be taken care of first. I don't really see this as a worthwhile concern for you. The security of the production chain is infinitely more important than short term profits found in selling bpcs off.


I don't think you HAVE to put your BPCs into production at starbase. You currently can do it remotely, as do I with my bpcs at station. That goes away for both of us. But if you can now copy (just pulling some numbers) at the double rate than you can manufacture, you can increase your production output by just coping them on station and building them on station from those copies.
At the end of the day you may end up with more output than possible from manufacturing in station. Maybe it is less than producing remote on POS currently. And if you are currently producing at a pos, every material is already at risk. If you add a BPCs there that won't change that values much.



no if your producing from a pos u will have to have the BPO/BPC in the pos with the mats not from the station... after patch ofc
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#417 - 2014-04-15 19:32:53 UTC
oohthey ioh wrote:
why is there a tab called teams? multiple people working on one BP?



"In a last blog, CCP Soniclover will introduce the concept of teams, which are the workforce used for industry jobs in the new system."

that should answer your question
Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#418 - 2014-04-15 19:33:34 UTC
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?

gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#419 - 2014-04-15 19:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: gifter Penken
Thead Enco wrote:
Hey look at it this way if 3/4 of the T2 BPO's die in an pool of napalm CCP will do another lottery so new players have a chance getting into that market.


T2 BPOs will not go to a POS. Even if they did, CCP would not bring back lottery, but they would finally be able to fix invention.


Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?




With unlimited slots, it is the price of those slots that will skyrocket (based on the new variable price based on demand). This will move production back to POS, but not with BPOs. With BPCs cranekd out from high sec, alt corps.
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#420 - 2014-04-15 19:34:32 UTC
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots