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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#1881 - 2014-04-29 23:17:01 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:


  • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
  • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.


  • Laboratories:

    More details on what's happening to them since slots are going away.

    Mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)

  • Advanced Mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5)

  • Hyasyoda mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5)



This is good information. I'm assuming the assembly array production time bonus modifiers stay the same (for each type of array).
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1882 - 2014-04-29 23:41:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:
Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.





Thats a huge dowside for POS owners. Unless someone is producing something requiring a large ammount of materials we will not get anything out of it.

T3's, rigs - both T1 and T2 - all of those use relativlely small ammount of items to produce, so no bonus or non-comparable bonus to (for example) mineral based production like t1 ships
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1883 - 2014-04-30 02:35:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:


  • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
  • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.



I'm a little bit confused, could someone clarify?

Equipment Assembly Array Info wrote:

A mobile assembly facility where modules can be manufactured more efficiently than the rapid equipment assembly array but at a reduced speed.

6 manufacturing slots
Base time multiplier: 0.75
Base material multiplier: 1



What is this "Material Reduction" you speak of?

Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#1884 - 2014-04-30 02:56:22 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Please note we are not removing installation types however – a station that could not handle manufacturing or research will not suddenly be capable of doing so.


Please tell me I am reading this wrong.

If my corporation has thousands of BPOs locked down in station in a system with no research facilities we'll need to move to a system with stations that have research?

No way am I putting expensive BPOs at risk by putting them in a POS.

If that's true then you're going to have a mass exodus to systems with research facilities, severely limiting where any sort of research is going to occur. It will screw over inventors because they will all need to make their copies in a limited number of systems.

There are also many other repercussions as manufacturing will begin to cluster around these research systems due to easy access to copies for invention. If you go this route please look at station densities and locations throughout the entire universe. Some regions have far more stations per system than others (ie Lonetrek and Nonni).





Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1885 - 2014-04-30 03:11:51 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Please note we are not removing installation types however – a station that could not handle manufacturing or research will not suddenly be capable of doing so.


Please tell me I am reading this wrong.

If my corporation has thousands of BPOs locked down in station in a system with no research facilities we'll need to move to a system with stations that have research?

No way am I putting expensive BPOs at risk by putting them in a POS.

If that's true then you're going to have a mass exodus to systems with research facilities, severely limiting where any sort of research is going to occur. It will screw over inventors because they will all need to make their copies in a limited number of systems.

There are also many other repercussions as manufacturing will begin to cluster around these research systems due to easy access to copies for invention. If you go this route please look at station densities and locations throughout the entire universe. Some regions have far more stations per system than others (ie Lonetrek and Nonni).





There are 300+ highsec systems that offer all 3 services (ME/PE, manufacturing, invention).

This data was exported for the public in the comments in the latest dev blog comments thread


So, really, who cares? (Also CCP WANTS clusters)
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#1886 - 2014-04-30 03:16:15 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Please note we are not removing installation types however – a station that could not handle manufacturing or research will not suddenly be capable of doing so.


Please tell me I am reading this wrong.

If my corporation has thousands of BPOs locked down in station in a system with no research facilities we'll need to move to a system with stations that have research?

No way am I putting expensive BPOs at risk by putting them in a POS.

If that's true then you're going to have a mass exodus to systems with research facilities, severely limiting where any sort of research is going to occur. It will screw over inventors because they will all need to make their copies in a limited number of systems.

There are also many other repercussions as manufacturing will begin to cluster around these research systems due to easy access to copies for invention. If you go this route please look at station densities and locations throughout the entire universe. Some regions have far more stations per system than others (ie Lonetrek and Nonni).





There are 300+ highsec systems that offer all 3 services (ME/PE, manufacturing, invention).

This data was exported for the public in the comments in the latest dev blog comments thread


So, really, who cares? (Also CCP WANTS clusters)


I care since we're going to need to unlock 1000s of BPOs from a system we've been in for 8+ years and move them to a new location where all the offices are probably already rented.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1887 - 2014-04-30 04:33:53 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Please note we are not removing installation types however – a station that could not handle manufacturing or research will not suddenly be capable of doing so.


Please tell me I am reading this wrong.

If my corporation has thousands of BPOs locked down in station in a system with no research facilities we'll need to move to a system with stations that have research?

No way am I putting expensive BPOs at risk by putting them in a POS.

If that's true then you're going to have a mass exodus to systems with research facilities, severely limiting where any sort of research is going to occur. It will screw over inventors because they will all need to make their copies in a limited number of systems.

There are also many other repercussions as manufacturing will begin to cluster around these research systems due to easy access to copies for invention. If you go this route please look at station densities and locations throughout the entire universe. Some regions have far more stations per system than others (ie Lonetrek and Nonni).





There are 300+ highsec systems that offer all 3 services (ME/PE, manufacturing, invention).

This data was exported for the public in the comments in the latest dev blog comments thread


So, really, who cares? (Also CCP WANTS clusters)


I care since we're going to need to unlock 1000s of BPOs from a system we've been in for 8+ years and move them to a new location where all the offices are probably already rented.


Oh, I am sorrry.
You have played the game under a stable set of conditions that allowed for a level playing field, and you expected to be treated fairly by CCP dev's with a system that maintained that level playing field?

Silly you.

Welcome to the new Eve order, where high sec risk is trivialized, ( I am sure even larger high sec gank camps will NOT form between the major research / manufacturing hubs and the trade hubs) and your time spent doing something / moving BPO's is considered without value.

Many industrialists quite rightly shake their head at the "my minerals are free because I mined them" concept.
CCP has taken that to the next level, where the time it takes hauling BPO's and finished products 20 plus jumps to and from trade / research hubs is free also, because you are doing it in high sec.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1888 - 2014-04-30 04:38:22 UTC
Note to self:

Pull all pirate tags used for data-centre standing gains off the market and dump to current market buy before summer expansion.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1889 - 2014-04-30 04:42:22 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Note to self:

Pull all pirate tags used for data-centre standing gains off the market and dump to current market buy before summer expansion.


Started that last week. Prices have been crashing since the first blog came out.
Kename Fin
Deep Stellar Coalition Enterprises
Silent Company
#1890 - 2014-04-30 05:07:48 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update…


    Advanced Mobile labs:
  • Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.75)
  • Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5)



The time multiplier for copying on the Advanced Mobile Labs is currently 0.65 and not 0.75 as listed.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Laboratory

The change from 0.75 -> 0.6 is a flat 25% boost. Since the current value is 0.65, is there any chance that the same 25% could be applied and get 0.53 time multiplier? Failing that, perhaps 17.5% for a 0.55? Blink
Flay Nardieu
#1891 - 2014-04-30 05:33:02 UTC
Aside from making prints more vulnerable to internal theft, removing the remote from office hangar feature except for the overly paranoid the risk can be virtually ignored in high-sec. The area I see it hurting the most is low-sec operations, particularly those who are just starting to venture into that arena. Plus the feature's removal in context doesn't make much sense and reduces options.

Having a pool of NPC workers in a system affecting the costs of jobs actually makes sense and is perfectly reasonable. However removing hard caps on amount of jobs at mobile labs and arrays does not. Someone with a basic understanding of manufacturing knows you have a finite space in a building or location. It is reasonable to believe a station or outpost could reallocate physical space to adjust for more concurrent jobs, in a mobile lab or array it doesn't. It would make more sense to simplify hard caps to jobs and not job types. Doing so shouldn't even need much change to work already done by dev nor affect the UI changes and lab modifiers. Just take the sum of the different job types in a lab and set that as the maximum capacity per that type of lab. Array capacity would just stay the same or tweaked.

Even if the previous paragraph is ignored, I still wonder if there is any advantage of having multiple labs at a POS after the expansion.

I know some may feel the things I am arguing against are trivial, to be honest I'm actually pointing out issues that I would actually benefit from personally if left as proposed.
Kename Fin
Deep Stellar Coalition Enterprises
Silent Company
#1892 - 2014-04-30 06:15:36 UTC
Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:


  • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
  • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.



I'm a little bit confused, could someone clarify?

Equipment Assembly Array Info wrote:

A mobile assembly facility where modules can be manufactured more efficiently than the rapid equipment assembly array but at a reduced speed.

6 manufacturing slots
Base time multiplier: 0.75
Base material multiplier: 1



What is this "Material Reduction" you speak of?



I think we are missing an intermediary line in CCP Ytterbium's post. After reviewing it, I think there was probably an internal discussion (several in fact) about adding the Material Reduction for Assembly Arrays. After deciding to do so, the dropped it back to a lower value (a more sensible 2%). We are just missing the part where they added it in the first place. I think
Kename Fin
Deep Stellar Coalition Enterprises
Silent Company
#1893 - 2014-04-30 06:25:11 UTC
Flay Nardieu wrote:
… I still wonder if there is any advantage of having multiple labs at a POS after the expansion.

I know some may feel the things I am arguing against are trivial, to be honest I'm actually pointing out issues that I would actually benefit from personally if left as proposed.


Agreed. The first thing that came to mind was stripping down the POS the bare essentials.

  • Advanced Mobile Lab for the copy bonus
  • Hyasyoda Mobile Lab for everything else


Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
#1894 - 2014-04-30 06:40:48 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Dei wrote:
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 22mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 30 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 3bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.




>Manufacturing time bonuses

>Avoiding taxes

>2% reduction in costs



All of the above mean any decent industrialist will use a large POS, barring laziness. Together, ignoring them makes you really bad at math (also rather stupid).


Could you do some quick math then to correct me? I included the above except manufacturing time bonuses (as they don't reduce cost, they just allow you to make more in a month). The fact still remains you have to shift a ton of product to cover the POS cost when you can now just use a station infinitely.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1895 - 2014-04-30 07:37:52 UTC
Kename Fin wrote:
Sylvanium Orlenard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another update.

Assembly Arrays:


  • Material reduction from all Assembly Arrays has been reduced from 5% to 2%.
  • Advanced Assembly arrays material waste has been removed. They used to have 10% material waste, they now have 2% material reduction like the regular Assembly Arrays.
  • We are considering increasing cargohold on Assembly Arrays, more updates as we get them.



I'm a little bit confused, could someone clarify?

Equipment Assembly Array Info wrote:

A mobile assembly facility where modules can be manufactured more efficiently than the rapid equipment assembly array but at a reduced speed.

6 manufacturing slots
Base time multiplier: 0.75
Base material multiplier: 1



What is this "Material Reduction" you speak of?



I think we are missing an intermediary line in CCP Ytterbium's post. After reviewing it, I think there was probably an internal discussion (several in fact) about adding the Material Reduction for Assembly Arrays. After deciding to do so, the dropped it back to a lower value (a more sensible 2%). We are just missing the part where they added it in the first place. I think



It's in another post by Ytterbium, where he'd said all assembly arrays, except capital ship ones, would get a -5% to materials costs.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Kename Fin
Deep Stellar Coalition Enterprises
Silent Company
#1896 - 2014-04-30 07:48:20 UTC
Uncle Stevie R wrote:
It's in another post by Ytterbium, where he'd said all assembly arrays, except capital ship ones, would get a -5% to materials costs.


Ok - I lost track of what had been posted where. I was hoping to help Sylvanium O with his question.
Aluka 7th
#1897 - 2014-04-30 07:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Disclaimer: I manufacture, invent and do all BPO stuff for long time and have high(ish) ME on some prints.


This expansion is awesome.

Yea, it hits my wallet and makes me think hard but it gives two, no, four, no, several massive boosts to industry:
- No need for boring refueling of research POSes as now you can find slots (copy/ME) in stations thus reducing peoples work and server load (for keeping track of all those research POSes).
- No need to wait for manufacturing line to free up because someone is hogging it producing unprofitable item 1 jump from trade hub while I wait with very profitable item for line to free up.
- POSes can now be anchored in new systems closer to hubs without that stupid standing thing (kicking/rejoining pilots to modify corp faction standing).
- Math behind current system is not complicated just harder to get all the details so simplifying (AKA dumbing down) is good for end product cost, markets and all players wanting to taste industry.
- Removes all that insane research to ME100-500 by hitting your wallet for that madness.
- Existing BPOs become even better.

POS with expansion becomes unnecessary or luxury. If you have profitable item and high demand then you WILL anchor POS and benefit from 33% more products per day if that extra profit covers your POS fuel.
There is one more hidden benefit of POS buried in "The price of change" blog and who notices it will know why you really want a POS if you are production intensive corp/solo Blink
On the other hand that 10% extra station tax in nothing that will make me move from station because its is multiplicative and ends up being on average 0.35-0.4% of end product price and wont alone cover POS fuel expense.

So with expansion you will need to use POS (industry related) only for T3 production, Capital production and (specifically for highsec) low-end ore compression and faster production of decently profitable items. Expansion hits your wallet (really a little) and makes industry life less tedious.







CCP, JUST please implement cheap and "easy" way to remove POSes that are littering space. Idea like hacking POSes that are (only) anchored for more then 30 days comes in mind!

Fly unsafe!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1898 - 2014-04-30 10:07:51 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:


...stuff...

CCP, JUST please implement cheap and "easy" way to remove POSes that are littering space. Idea like hacking POSes that are (only) anchored for more then 30 days comes in mind!

Fly unsafe!


I liked a guys idea a while ago that offlined POS over a certain length of time get rogue droned and turned into hives. This allowed for players to then blow them up for salvage/the moon slot without CONCORD interference
Sister Hyde
Kaleidoscopes for the Blind
#1899 - 2014-04-30 12:12:15 UTC
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Lets brake this update down to what it relly means in regard to gamplay:Team cost=i have to haul lot more stuff for production spending less time on what i want to do with more risk .Smart industrial:planning loong time a head less likly to pay of shorther copy time marked change faster and to be that smart i need to hawe a lott more building matrials to be abel to change production fast,this mean a lott more isk bound up in matrials thats meens relocation of base will cost a lott more time.Refining gets nerfed:Longer skill traning means less time on other skills neded to defend your self or other corp members making it iven harder for industrials to be under war dec for a longer time playing the game.Spending iven more time on finding rigth station to produce things and calculating profitTo brake it down in short tearms invest more/produce more/spend more time/for the same amount of isk that you make to day and do less off what you want to do.




This is my dislike button


Your english is awful, your grammar is awful, your spelling is awful.


If you can't see one of the very many blatantly obvious ways to profit greatly off this patch, you were not meant for industry.

I must be awful ty ty


Your formatting is awful, as well. Your punctuation is awful. I'm not sure whether what you said was awful, because I couldn't decipher it. Does that make you awful as a person? It certainly shows disrespect to your fellow readers.
Flay Nardieu
#1900 - 2014-04-30 12:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Flay Nardieu
Easier does not equal better, but too easy equals complacency and to most boring.

Reasonable limits and restrictions encourage people to adapt inside those constraints rewarding those who do so giving them an edge in tactics and economic competition.

Removing starbase restrictions in high-sec are counter intuitive, especially in light of changes to NPC stations' manufacturing and research abilities. The removal of restrictions has much less to do with S&I than it does as a balancing element. I'm amazed the low and null groups aren't making the point for me. Every corporation that was using a POS in 0.4 space because the group couldn't get together to maintain a minimal standing with an empire long enough to set one (or at least should considering the risks that they will face related to other points I've made repeatedly in the past)

Just for those who don't know the limits as they are now verse the rewards I will explain

  • 0.5 is the lowest security systems in high sec, they have the full protection against capitals and start the most restrictive of structure anchoring
  • 0.4 is the highest security you can anchor a POS tower without empire standings it has most of the restrictions of high-sec structure anchoring and the risk of being engaged by capital ships
  • 0.3 this is the line where restrictions limiting not only moon mining but the reactions of the moon goo structure fall off


The first POS I managed was in Hulmate, it is a 0.4 system with 1 NPC station. Simply because the corp I was in at the time could not get the standings required 5.01 with an empire based on the raw standing of the active players. The risk was worth the reward, the limitations forced us to learn how to play smarter. Ultimately when I decided to take it down it had never lost a single defense structure it even got a kill mail, it had ran for months only reason it was unanchored was fuel costs.

The restrictions didn't hinder us (and likely many others) it was a learning experience greatly improving teamwork and tactics.