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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1861 - 2014-04-29 18:06:20 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
So Amarr stations get 5% reduction in materials, but POS gets 2% reduction, or do they stack??

They don't stack; the 5% reduction in Amarr outposts only applies to jobs started in the outpost. There's a dev post confirming this but I'm too lazy to find it; peruse the [DEV POSTS] button on the top of the forum page to find it if you don't believe me.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
#1862 - 2014-04-29 18:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dei
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 22mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 30 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 3bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1863 - 2014-04-29 18:13:58 UTC
Dei wrote:
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 17mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 20 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 2bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.

Given that a Large Ship Assembly Array takes 300k grid, and an Amarr Control Tower Small has 1250k grid, I feel like using a large pos for a single LSAA is pretty wasteful.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Aluka 7th
#1864 - 2014-04-29 18:22:36 UTC
In what month will summer expansion be implemented?
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#1865 - 2014-04-29 18:47:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
So Amarr stations get 5% reduction in materials, but POS gets 2% reduction, or do they stack??

They don't stack; the 5% reduction in Amarr outposts only applies to jobs started in the outpost. There's a dev post confirming this but I'm too lazy to find it; peruse the [DEV POSTS] button on the top of the forum page to find it if you don't believe me.


I typed that about 3 minutes before I read that on the other post :(

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1866 - 2014-04-29 18:59:38 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Querns wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
So Amarr stations get 5% reduction in materials, but POS gets 2% reduction, or do they stack??

They don't stack; the 5% reduction in Amarr outposts only applies to jobs started in the outpost. There's a dev post confirming this but I'm too lazy to find it; peruse the [DEV POSTS] button on the top of the forum page to find it if you don't believe me.


I typed that about 3 minutes before I read that on the other post :(

It's cool. The rate of changes being fired out here are so great, even I've missed one or two along the way.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
#1867 - 2014-04-29 19:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dei
Querns wrote:
Dei wrote:
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 17mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 20 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 2bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.

Given that a Large Ship Assembly Array takes 300k grid, and an Amarr Control Tower Small has 1250k grid, I feel like using a large pos for a single LSAA is pretty wasteful.


Was only an example since most people can relate to the rounded values. Not sure why you assume that I'd use a single Large Ship Assembly Array on a large POS. The calculation doesn't change in either case.
Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
#1868 - 2014-04-29 19:20:22 UTC
Are we sure that unlimited slots are a good thing? From a lore perspective this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There are not inifinite resources on a station/starbase and there's only so much space. Wouldn't an install cost based on % of lines running on a 28 day moving average be better?

The main reason you have a high sec POS is because of slot limitation. I can't really speculate on how players would be distributed because of infinite slots, but you hope that it'll mean players spread out. It could also mean that players cluster up near trade hubs due to the fact they can manufacture closer and the install costs are not high enough to warrant moving.

I think that if there were a finite number of slots, the implementation of Teams as a dynamic hourly rate for the job, plus the ability to sell starbase lines to the public would be fine. The current implementation creates quite a big problem if left as it is, and balancing starbases so they're still useful to industry in high sec is going to be hard.

For null sec, there would be player taxes for install costs and the ability to add more slots through modules. Time should be focused on allowing players to expand their outposts (or at least work on getting more than 1 outpost per system). The current implementation seems like a shortcut to an end that has not been realised correctly.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1869 - 2014-04-29 19:23:25 UTC
Dei wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dei wrote:
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 17mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 20 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 2bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.

Given that a Large Ship Assembly Array takes 300k grid, and an Amarr Control Tower Small has 1250k grid, I feel like using a large pos for a single LSAA is pretty wasteful.


Was only an example since most people can relate to the rounded values. Not sure why you assume that I'd use a single Large Ship Assembly Array on a large POS. The calculation doesn't change in either case.

Sure it does. A small POS consumes 25% of the fuel of a large POS per hour. Given your 400m / mo example, we can extrapolate that a small POS with an LSAA costs 100m / mo to operate. That decreases the number of Abaddons you have to sell (at 10m profit) from 20 to 5.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
#1870 - 2014-04-29 19:29:05 UTC
Yes but I was just giving an example on how much product you'd have to shift before making a profit on a large POS. I'm not saying that you'd only produce Abaddons (obviously you'd produce more and perhaps use research labs) but rather I'm suggesting that you'd have to shift 2bil of stuff just to cover the cost of the large POS fuel.

If we take the current system, the main reason you have a high sec POS is because the slots are limited and you can't do ME research anywhere. In other words, you HAVE to put one up if you want to make money from manufacturing in the long run - it's an overhead rather than a cost of production.

In the summer system, POSes become a factor in production costs and not an overhead since you don't NEED them (you can just use the stations instead for everything). Therefore the main reason you would want to have a POS is to be able to save a shitload of money from manufacturing. My question is: Is 2bil of product shifting worth the saving?
Flay Nardieu
#1871 - 2014-04-29 20:14:43 UTC
@Dei
You mentioned the lore aspect, it was actually handled fairly well in that you are paying virtual NPC workers to run the apparatus (was so much easier to say lines for both labs and arrays Straight )



Other parts well I'm kinda disappointed, the delay and then bam dropping 3 dev-blogs at once. Honestly it gives me the impression that the releases was designed to scatter the point by point arguments because they had vested too much and didn't quite get the fanfare they where expecting. Hehe, maybe it just took time to build some research and supporting materials retroactively...

Dunno, I have a major case of seeing "The tail wagging the dog".
Valterra Craven
#1872 - 2014-04-29 20:31:35 UTC
Dei wrote:
Are we sure that unlimited slots are a good thing? From a lore perspective this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. There are not inifinite resources on a station/starbase and there's only so much space.


I never understood people trying to justify "lore" in this way. Does it make "lore" sense to have infinite storage in stations? (I wonder how much M3 Jita currently houses....

Personally I think infinite slots is a stupid idea because it creates more problems than it solves... but its not like we are going to get a choice on the matter.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1873 - 2014-04-29 20:53:14 UTC
Lets brake this update down to what it relly means in regard to gamplay:Team cost=i have to haul lot more stuff for production spending less time on what i want to do with more risk .Smart industrial:planning loong time a head less likly to pay of shorther copy time marked change faster and to be that smart i need to hawe a lott more building matrials to be abel to change production fast,this mean a lott more isk bound up in matrials thats meens relocation of base will cost a lott more time.Refining gets nerfed:Longer skill traning means less time on other skills neded to defend your self or other corp members making it iven harder for industrials to be under war dec for a longer time playing the game.Spending iven more time on finding rigth station to produce things and calculating profitTo brake it down in short tearms invest more/produce more/spend more time/for the same amount of isk that you make to day and do less off what you want to do.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1874 - 2014-04-29 20:54:03 UTC
Dei wrote:
Just doing some quick math:

Say Abaddon materials costs 100mil. In a station say install cost is 10mil. I sell for 120mil for 10 mil profit.

Produced in a starbase I save 2% of the material = 98mil cost. Are we saying install costs are still 10mil? Or less?

Let's say that it's 0 (which it isn't). I sell for 120mil for 22mil profit.

It costs 400mil~ to run a large POS. At this reduction I need to sell 30 Abaddons in order to break even. That's 3bil of stock I have to shift before I can even think about making a profit (and the install cost isn't even right, so it's more in reality).

Firstly, are my calculations correct in theory? Secondly, do we think that 2% reduction for manufacturing at a POS is worth it? If the above is correct I'm thinking no.




>Manufacturing time bonuses

>Avoiding taxes

>2% reduction in costs



All of the above mean any decent industrialist will use a large POS, barring laziness. Together, ignoring them makes you really bad at math (also rather stupid).
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1875 - 2014-04-29 20:58:05 UTC
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Lets brake this update down to what it relly means in regard to gamplay:Team cost=i have to haul lot more stuff for production spending less time on what i want to do with more risk .Smart industrial:planning loong time a head less likly to pay of shorther copy time marked change faster and to be that smart i need to hawe a lott more building matrials to be abel to change production fast,this mean a lott more isk bound up in matrials thats meens relocation of base will cost a lott more time.Refining gets nerfed:Longer skill traning means less time on other skills neded to defend your self or other corp members making it iven harder for industrials to be under war dec for a longer time playing the game.Spending iven more time on finding rigth station to produce things and calculating profitTo brake it down in short tearms invest more/produce more/spend more time/for the same amount of isk that you make to day and do less off what you want to do.




This is my dislike button


Your english is awful, your grammar is awful, your spelling is awful.


If you can't see one of the very many blatantly obvious ways to profit greatly off this patch, you were not meant for industry.
Flay Nardieu
#1876 - 2014-04-29 21:02:25 UTC
Upon reflection I think I get the gist of CCP premise...

Someway or another the A.I. in POS structures all got lobotomized at the exact same instant so virtual workers are now required. Then mysteriously developed folding space technology but it only is applicable to manufacturing tooling and laboratories. Meanwhile back at the hall of absurdity.... People discovered you can use blueprints from inside containers but somehow forgot the method of using them remotely.

I suppose the expansion should be called "Paradox" or "Oxymoron"

For all the "supporting" information provided people would think to have some realistic constants. Seriously I put this on par with a caveman not being able to make a campfire building an ion based propulsion system.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#1877 - 2014-04-29 21:11:07 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Zeera Tomb-Raider wrote:
Lets brake this update down to what it relly means in regard to gamplay:Team cost=i have to haul lot more stuff for production spending less time on what i want to do with more risk .Smart industrial:planning loong time a head less likly to pay of shorther copy time marked change faster and to be that smart i need to hawe a lott more building matrials to be abel to change production fast,this mean a lott more isk bound up in matrials thats meens relocation of base will cost a lott more time.Refining gets nerfed:Longer skill traning means less time on other skills neded to defend your self or other corp members making it iven harder for industrials to be under war dec for a longer time playing the game.Spending iven more time on finding rigth station to produce things and calculating profitTo brake it down in short tearms invest more/produce more/spend more time/for the same amount of isk that you make to day and do less off what you want to do.




This is my dislike button


Your english is awful, your grammar is awful, your spelling is awful.


If you can't see one of the very many blatantly obvious ways to profit greatly off this patch, you were not meant for industry.

I must be awful ty ty
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#1878 - 2014-04-29 21:33:13 UTC
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Upon reflection I think I get the gist of CCP premise...

Someway or another the A.I. in POS structures all got lobotomized at the exact same instant so virtual workers are now required. Then mysteriously developed folding space technology but it only is applicable to manufacturing tooling and laboratories. Meanwhile back at the hall of absurdity.... People discovered you can use blueprints from inside containers but somehow forgot the method of using them remotely.

I suppose the expansion should be called "Paradox" or "Oxymoron"

For all the "supporting" information provided people would think to have some realistic constants. Seriously I put this on par with a caveman not being able to make a campfire building an ion based propulsion system.



Our previously infinite supply of minmatar slave workers, lifetime supplies of which were factored into the isk cost of starbase modules when being built, has now dried up. Roll



We now have to hire much more expensive paid, educated labor.





Basically? **** your lore. Lore should never get in the way of gameplay. The expansions are about improving gameplay - lore revolves around them. Gameplay does not revolve around lore.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#1879 - 2014-04-29 21:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shoogie
Dei wrote:
Yes but I was just giving an example on how much product you'd have to shift before making a profit on a large POS. I'm not saying that you'd only produce Abaddons (obviously you'd produce more and perhaps use research labs) but rather I'm suggesting that you'd have to shift 2bil of stuff just to cover the cost of the large POS fuel.

If we take the current system, the main reason you have a high sec POS is because the slots are limited and you can't do ME research anywhere. In other words, you HAVE to put one up if you want to make money from manufacturing in the long run - it's an overhead rather than a cost of production.

In the summer system, POSes become a factor in production costs and not an overhead since you don't NEED them (you can just use the stations instead for everything). Therefore the main reason you would want to have a POS is to be able to save a shitload of money from manufacturing. My question is: Is 2bil of product shifting worth the saving?


Dei, you slipped a decimal point somewhere.

If Player A puts 100M isk into building something in an NPC station, and gets X profit.
Then Player B can put 98M isk into building the same something in a Large POS and get X+2M profit. So, for 100M isk of throughput, Player B gets 2M isk more profit.

If that Large POS costs 500M isk per month to fuel, then you need to get that 2M isk 250 times.

250 * 100M isk = 25 Billion isk worth of material throughput to pay for the fuel.
Flay Nardieu
#1880 - 2014-04-29 21:58:24 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Upon reflection I think I get the gist of CCP premise...

Someway or another the A.I. in POS structures all got lobotomized at the exact same instant so virtual workers are now required. Then mysteriously developed folding space technology but it only is applicable to manufacturing tooling and laboratories. Meanwhile back at the hall of absurdity.... People discovered you can use blueprints from inside containers but somehow forgot the method of using them remotely.

I suppose the expansion should be called "Paradox" or "Oxymoron"

For all the "supporting" information provided people would think to have some realistic constants. Seriously I put this on par with a caveman not being able to make a campfire building an ion based propulsion system.



Our previously infinite supply of minmatar slave workers, lifetime supplies of which were factored into the isk cost of starbase modules when being built, has now dried up. Roll



We now have to hire much more expensive paid, educated labor.





Basically? **** your lore. Lore should never get in the way of gameplay. The expansions are about improving gameplay - lore revolves around them. Gameplay does not revolve around lore.


Seriously? I was addressing more of the issue of it not being logical than hollering it isn't lore so it is wrong. Anyway playing a game with a overly linear or non-existent storyline no matter the technical expertise involved in game play usually sucks after playing once. Counter point to that, a really good story can engage a player and increase replay value even if the mechanics are awkward. I only use lore in the context of the game making sense not specific operational game play.

Frankly speaking the expansion as proposed has very little in the way of improving game play. it doesn't overly break things and definitely playable. Overall it is not much than a more (subjectively) intuitive interface over a hack job of changing things to justify man-hours.

And wow, I didn't even need to insult or be profane amazing Shocked