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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#1761 - 2014-04-25 18:55:09 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:


Ok. I can understand the RAM change, those things could get huge in a hurry with the intended changes.

The assembly array change is pretty meh for risking BPO's where they can't be locked down. The lab change is almost insulting barring significant changes to the base research and copy times on BPO's.

Copies are going to take less time than building now
So the -5% is just even more icing

And I like the -5% to materials, it could be quite fun given how that is +1 me on things I think
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#1762 - 2014-04-25 19:07:09 UTC
For some reason I don't see the nullsec producers putting 10,000,000,000 on a JF to fly into a hub. Even if they do one jump with that much into a lowsec system, they'd have to carve out a bunch of trips to take that much ISK into highsec, and the time/effort transportation costs of that could start getting pretty high...I don't think it's at all plausible to think that transportation would only be (item value)*(.5%); I expect it to be an order of magnitude above that.
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#1763 - 2014-04-25 19:17:05 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
I was thinking of setting up my first POS this weekend. It would be pretty much exclusively for ME/PE research, BPCs and soon some T2 invention, but I'm not sure it will be worth it with these changes.

I farm/make my own charters and fuel, and to me it's worth the 100M or so a month to not wait 30 days for a research slot even in my somewhat remote home system, and my understanding is currently you don't even need to expose your BPOs if your POS is in the same system, or close system with the right science skills. However, with these changes let me get this straight:

1) The time I spent farming faction standing will almost be completely wasted
2) I'll still need to fuel and charter my POS
3) My BPOs will now be vulnerable when transporting, or having my corp war decced and POS attacked if I can't be online for a couple days and can't retrieve my BPOs in time.
4) I'll have to pay the same NPC tax as I would using the soon to be unlimited and completely safe NPC facilities.

Someone please tell me why I should bother having a POS after these changes? Unless we are getting some huge bonus somewhere I haven't seen, it seems to me to be a no brainer to *maybe* pay an up to 14% surcharge to have complete safety and save 100M or so a month on fuel and charters.


My understanding based on the various official posts:

1) Yes, as it relates to POS anchoring
2) Yes
3) Yes, you can leave BPO's in research stations and make BPC's. This may be a better option for high value BPO's. Copy times are supposed to shorten. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.
4) You will have to pay at tax at your POS, but I suspect you can mitigate the tax because your POS will be less congested than the stations. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings to see. My guess is that multiple arrays (even with no slots) will lower 'congestion' and the tax rate at your POS. Again though we need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1764 - 2014-04-25 19:38:30 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:


Ok. I can understand the RAM change, those things could get huge in a hurry with the intended changes.

The assembly array change is pretty meh for risking BPO's where they can't be locked down. The lab change is almost insulting barring significant changes to the base research and copy times on BPO's.

Copies are going to take less time than building now
So the -5% is just even more icing

And I like the -5% to materials, it could be quite fun given how that is +1 me on things I think



Better than +1 ME.

A common base waste is 10%. ME 1 halves it to 5%. But you need to get to ME 3 to halve the waste again, to 2.5%

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1765 - 2014-04-25 19:39:21 UTC
Korthan Doshu wrote:
For some reason I don't see the nullsec producers putting 10,000,000,000 on a JF to fly into a hub. Even if they do one jump with that much into a lowsec system, they'd have to carve out a bunch of trips to take that much ISK into highsec, and the time/effort transportation costs of that could start getting pretty high...I don't think it's at all plausible to think that transportation would only be (item value)*(.5%); I expect it to be an order of magnitude above that.


Yeah, I can see moving 10 billion in a freighter as not smart, though we see examples of that every day in Niarja.
But my example of a Viator holding 1 billion being covop cynoed in and then breezing through to a hub is still very valid.
Or a

But even that is going to be a moot point.
As one of the architects pointed out, they now plan on implementing plans they have been holding onto for years to "increase density in null", which reads as jam more people into null creating null sec hubs that have zero need for high sec, other than compressed low end ore.

Jita , Amarr, Dodixie, etc will be reduced dramatically in trade volume.

Null will become the new high sec. It is already there in safety levels, and will soon have an uptick in population density as the cartels start a real PR campaign for immigration.

High sec, on the other hand, will continue to become a wasteland.
This is of course, is accelerated once the T2 invention high sec nerf arrives in the fall, the high sec Incursion income is nerfed even more, and high sec L4 missions are "enhanced" with new changes that make them impossible to run solo.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1766 - 2014-04-25 19:43:00 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
TLDR: Surely this isn't mainly about ISK sinks, it's about highsec and nullsec.
CUT: AWESOME, Amazing, cogent, econmoic analysis.... so rare to see such a long post, from someone that clearly "gets it". Thanks.



Okay, perhaps it is a high/null re-balance. I had seen (and agreed with) the idea of drastically reducing high sec station slots and upping the null outpost slots.

I could see where they do NOT want to cut high sec slots. They do nt want the VERY significant portion of the player base that lives in high sec, and is NEVER going to move out, to log in, try to play, find nothing to do.... then drop their subscriptions.

This is why high sec belts are never going to go away (or even be nerfed back to teh point they were all mined out). Lack of high sec resources does NOT push people to null, it pushes them out of the game.

So, much higher slot prices would ensure that they are not "totally blocked", just lower profit.


However, if it were ONLY about re-balance, then why apply the cost structure to null at all? 14% cost added to high sec, 0% to null. Then the cost/risk of shipping goods into high sec would be sure to be rewarded with higher profit margins. Some things are easy enough to move to justify the profit, while other items (ammo) are too big and cheap (ammo), that people would not build in null and move it in.



What I do think you are definitely onto is that there is a shift in CCP thinking on the way of implimenting risk v. reward. Previous attempts focused on buffing null. Those were largely disasters as it exploded isk creation and concentration. If I could suddenly make twice as much ISK ratting null, the bosses with the titans doubled my rent. My profits didn't really change that much, but the wallets of the bosses got way fatter, very quickly.

So, now they are looking for ways to "rebalance" that do nto involve buffing null, but rather nerfing high.... which is what has the high sec player base (a huge portion of CCP's income) so concerned.



Perhaps CCP could finally do something about the #1 bat to teh head of null profitability... the cloaky camper.

What good is it that I can make 2x the isk/hr in null, if I spend over half my time sitting in station because there is NOTHING that can be done about a cloaky camper. Give us something, anything, that makes it possible to hunt down and kill a claoky camper! Poof, null sec profitability skyrockets!!!


The whole point of cloaking is to be untrack-able, that is required for other key aspects in the game,
and should not be tampered with.
I am assuming you are an alt if so perhaps a reliable combat escort from your main's Corp/Alliance would be of use and or a decoy ship or two, a very simple concept to start you off thinking about some possibilities, these obviously are never a guarantee but then nothing is in Eve, except lol, death and taxes especially now, the taxes, bit like RL really in that respect.
If you are a solo player (to be fair most MMOGS don't really like solo players it doesn't fit their homogeneous,gaming/business model they stereotype the player and generally most try to force, sorry encourage you into groups/corps/guilds whatever, they assume rightly or wrongly that everyone wants to be and can work in a team/group, but they don't) this can make solo play harder to cope with, but not impossible. you just have to be more prepared and plan better and work harder.
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#1767 - 2014-04-25 19:51:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Korthan Doshu wrote:
For some reason I don't see the nullsec producers putting 10,000,000,000 on a JF to fly into a hub. Even if they do one jump with that much into a lowsec system, they'd have to carve out a bunch of trips to take that much ISK into highsec, and the time/effort transportation costs of that could start getting pretty high...I don't think it's at all plausible to think that transportation would only be (item value)*(.5%); I expect it to be an order of magnitude above that.


Yeah, I can see moving 10 billion in a freighter as not smart, though we see examples of that every day in Niarja.
But my example of a Viator holding 1 billion being covop cynoed in and then breezing through to a hub is still very valid.
Or a

But even that is going to be a moot point.
As one of the architects pointed out, they now plan on implementing plans they have been holding onto for years to "increase density in null", which reads as jam more people into null creating null sec hubs that have zero need for high sec, other than compressed low end ore.

Jita , Amarr, Dodixie, etc will be reduced dramatically in trade volume.

Null will become the new high sec. It is already there in safety levels, and will soon have an uptick in population density as the cartels start a real PR campaign for immigration.

High sec, on the other hand, will continue to become a wasteland.
This is of course, is accelerated once the T2 invention high sec nerf arrives in the fall, the high sec Incursion income is nerfed even more, and high sec L4 missions are "enhanced" with new changes that make them impossible to run solo.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it's impossible; I just don't think there's enough evidence to have confidence that this will happen.

I do wonder what they think is broken about invention though...seems to work just fine to me.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1768 - 2014-04-25 20:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
ST Mahan wrote:

3) Yes, you can leave BPO's in research stations and make BPC's. This may be a better option for high value BPO's. Copy times are supposed to shorten. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.
4) You will have to pay at tax at your POS, but I suspect you can mitigate the tax because your POS will be less congested than the stations. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings to see. My guess is that multiple arrays (even with no slots) will lower 'congestion' and the tax rate at your POS. Again though we need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.


You cannot research BPC.

The fact that you have to pay money to whatever AT ALL on YOUR stick is an outrage.

--

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

High sec, on the other hand, will continue to become a wasteland.
This is of course, is accelerated once the T2 invention high sec nerf arrives in the fall, the high sec Incursion income is nerfed even more, and high sec L4 missions are "enhanced" with new changes that make them impossible to run solo.


They cannot do that! After all, High sec's L4s and L3s are the biggest income source for 00 sec dwellers. If CCP takes that away or makes it harder, many 00 dwellers are going to cry us a Rivr. Lol

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#1769 - 2014-04-25 20:14:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
ST Mahan wrote:

3) Yes, you can leave BPO's in research stations and make BPC's. This may be a better option for high value BPO's. Copy times are supposed to shorten. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.
4) You will have to pay at tax at your POS, but I suspect you can mitigate the tax because your POS will be less congested than the stations. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings to see. My guess is that multiple arrays (even with no slots) will lower 'congestion' and the tax rate at your POS. Again though we need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.


You cannot research BPC.

The fact that you have to pay money to whatever AT ALL on YOUR stick is an outrage.



BPC research. True, but you will have to research your expensive BPO's in stations, make copies (at supposed to be much faster rates), then use the BPC to manufacture in your POS (with 5% material benefit in POS arrays). This is more work, but looks like the way to get around the risk of putting expensive BPO's in POS's.

Then I guess you will need to hang a sign up on the POS saying 'Don't Shoot No Expensive BPO's Here'. Lol

No comment on the tax for running a POS. Still need to see how it compares to using slots in stations. Will need to see all of the upcoming Dev Blogs and other official comments.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1770 - 2014-04-25 20:39:39 UTC
Mynnna's latest blog has useful historical figures in it:

http://thethirdn.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/data-based-contempt/

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#1771 - 2014-04-25 20:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Korthan Doshu
Mynnna's post is informative if not entirely on-point.

I don't think anybody cares whether all industry moves to nullsec. What people care about is whether the majority of industrial profits move to nullsec. Mynnna hedges in the article about whether this will happen. We need to see the numbers from the next few dev blogs to be able to make better predictions about that.
Axe Coldon
#1772 - 2014-04-25 20:59:30 UTC
Well I worry about the change to remotely copying blueprints..specifically cap blueprints. No amount of change to the labs in terms of hit points will help. And its not practical to expect people to get it out before the pos goes in reinforce. Any good enemy will know your time zone and simply attack the pos when you are asleep. Such a system once again favors the large mega alliances that can have 24 hour coverage and makes it harder for the small guy.

But if you make the mobile labs like the SMA's which can have stuff taken out of them when the pos is in reinforce..that would be a decent balance.

I predict less copy sets being made. Forcing more to buy originals..hmm maybe this is a hidden isk sink also.

This also penalizes new players..as us older players have had our bpo's ME researched for years...

Why not do all the changes but keep in remote operation of labs like it is now but add a cost because we are using a station to do it. And it could scale up based on how much the station is used..but we could still remote research our bpo's and remote copy them. This also helps new peeps because they wont need empire standing to put up a pos.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1773 - 2014-04-25 21:16:10 UTC
ST Mahan wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
ST Mahan wrote:

3) Yes, you can leave BPO's in research stations and make BPC's. This may be a better option for high value BPO's. Copy times are supposed to shorten. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.
4) You will have to pay at tax at your POS, but I suspect you can mitigate the tax because your POS will be less congested than the stations. We need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings to see. My guess is that multiple arrays (even with no slots) will lower 'congestion' and the tax rate at your POS. Again though we need to wait and see the upcoming blog postings.


You cannot research BPC.

The fact that you have to pay money to whatever AT ALL on YOUR stick is an outrage.



BPC research. True, but you will have to research your expensive BPO's in stations, make copies (at supposed to be much faster rates), then use the BPC to manufacture in your POS (with 5% material benefit in POS arrays). This is more work, but looks like the way to get around the risk of putting expensive BPO's in POS's.

Then I guess you will need to hang a sign up on the POS saying 'Don't Shoot No Expensive BPO's Here'. Lol

No comment on the tax for running a POS. Still need to see how it compares to using slots in stations. Will need to see all of the upcoming Dev Blogs and other official comments.



It all comes back to the "POS factor" in this equation these structures have never been kept up to date with the rest of the game play releases hot dropped on us players by CCP, so they are now realistically unable to be effective in their ability to cope with these new game play styles, which suggests a half thought concept again, and implies they are only focusing on one facet of the idea in the rush to develop it. Yes industry needs a revamp but when you build a new release you make sure you don't create a great gaff in doing it. POS's used to have to be besieged properly hence Cap ships, now any Corp with 10-15 Tonka Toys, can shove it into reinforced mode whilst the owning Corp is offline due to their time zone and effective/available play time differences, how do I know this? simple been there and done it, developed and refined for use and works well in WH's. especially if the owning Corp is not attentive to players dropping in then logging off almost straight away until the fleet is built up.
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1774 - 2014-04-25 21:51:06 UTC
While we're addressing all things Indy + POS talk,,,can we get another pass on the T1 hauling industrial ships such that at least one of them can put REPROCESSED ICE PRODUCTS in the specialized hold?

Hauling block ice is one thing, but the need is also for reprocessed ice.

ty.
Valterra Craven
#1775 - 2014-04-25 22:36:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update!

[list]

  • All Starbase Mobile Laboratories have a further 5% time reduction for all research jobs - except for Reverse Engineering Laboratory.



    • Still havent seen any mention of what you plan to do with the special Hyosdya mobile lab....
    Lvzbel Ixtab
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1776 - 2014-04-25 22:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lvzbel Ixtab
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    Rivr Luzade wrote:
    LHA Tarawa wrote:
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

    Please....the dev's have made it explicitly clear that null sec stations and POS's will enjoy far lower mfg costs that high sec because of this ridiculous idea that sov null sec has more inherent risk than high sec.



    There is not just risk in null, there is cost too.

    The cost of transporting goods to high sec. The cost of rent. The cost of sitting in station 75% of your play time becuase there is NOTHING you can do about a cloaky camper other than stay docked.

    If null is so great, with no draw backs, then why is such a high % of the player base still in high? Because hull is NOT that great!


    §1: Wrong.

    §2: Wrong

    §3: Because you don't think.



    Apparently there are THOUSANDS of us null-carebears (I do not consider it an insult, I own it) that do not think, because we all sit around in station or POS commenting that there is NOTHING we can do to deal with that mother father null camper AGAIN! Nothing. can't find them. Can't kill them. Can't prevent them from pulling up beside you and lighting a cyno.

    So, we just go back to high sec, where we can actually, you know, play the game!


    Cloaky camper... the #1 killer of null profit, and the #1 thing that keeps people in high sec.


    Here is the solution you are not force to pvp but, you can have a PVP wing in your corp.

    Cloakys easy way to deal with them, bait them out once they tackle you and lights a cyno, YOU light another cyno and bring your PVP wing.

    Problem solve there is content for your Carebears and your PVP wing.

    You dont have to pvp but you have the option to defend yourself or not


    We have dealt with this in our WH, we had T3 cloakys camping our system for months and we never sat in our POSes, We pretent PVE and our bait response ready.

    At the end we killed lots of russians that month and It was lots of Fun.

    Cloaky campers? you have a way to deal with them is your choice to sit at your POS bored to Hell
    Aryth
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #1777 - 2014-04-25 22:51:20 UTC
    Korthan Doshu wrote:
    Mynnna's post is informative if not entirely on-point.

    I don't think anybody cares whether all industry moves to nullsec. What people care about is whether the majority of industrial profits move to nullsec. Mynnna hedges in the article about whether this will happen. We need to see the numbers from the next few dev blogs to be able to make better predictions about that.


    Of course. We haven't even internally decided how to do final exploitation of the new mechanics until we see all the final blogs. However, from what has been released, its clear the high margins of some types of productions are going to get compressed. by nullsec. To claim doom and gloom for highsec production though is laughable. Those of you in sweet spots like JF's are going to get creamed though.

    Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

    Creator of Burn Jita

    Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
    Petrified
    Old and Petrified Syndication
    #1778 - 2014-04-25 23:11:06 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Max Kolonko wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Querns wrote:
    I thought of a potential gotcha: Will POS assembly modules also have their slots removed? Will you be able to, e.g., run an infinite number of ammo jobs from a single ammo assembly array?


    Yes, slots are being removed on everything, however, cost scaling will still be applicable to Starbases as well. Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details.


    Wait, what?!
    So what is my incentive to pay 300 000 000 isk a month for fuel if i still have to pay for production slots????


    Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.


    I am very, very curious what the in-game reason will be for some third party taxation of research jobs run by a corporation in a POS. Are we paying for researchers to research for us (in which case, do we need research skills? P)? The reason would have to be consistent across Empire, Null Sec, and Wormhole space. Do we need to supply researchers for the POS?


    Apart from that...

    Could you please make POS inventories truly unified? As in: Materials in Mobile lab 1 can be used by Mobile lab 2 and if that Assembly array is short Tritanium it can pull it from Mobile Lab 3 because the inventory is unified? This would simplify POS industrial management considerably.

    Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

    Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
    Flay Nardieu
    #1779 - 2014-04-26 00:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Flay Nardieu
    Axe Coldon wrote:

    ...

    Why not do all the changes but keep in remote operation of labs like it is now but add a cost because we are using a station to do it. And it could scale up based on how much the station is used..but we could still remote research our bpo's and remote copy them. This also helps new peeps because they wont need empire standing to put up a pos.


    Aside from the last line in the partial quote where I disagree about standings removal helping new players, and cost scaling. Being charged a flat rate for remote jobs.* I find it actually pragmatic and fits with common sense and lore.

    heck it can be rolled into cannon with something like this

    "With the increased independence of the capsuleers and proliferation of capsuleer corporate owned structures in space, Corporations throughout the various empires have decided that the high bandwith secure channels used in the remote S&I sector are a premium service and not inclusive to office rental fees in the past. The XYZ initiative has introduced the universal HBSC surcharge"

    Wow, I just might have meet all 3 principles in the "Big Plan"

    *Edit: changed from a blanket agreement to conditional one
    ISD Ezwal
    ISD Community Communications Liaisons
    ISD Alliance
    #1780 - 2014-04-26 00:13:56 UTC
    I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

    The Rules:
    4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

    Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

    ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)