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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1741 - 2014-04-25 16:26:50 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Querns wrote:
yada yada

"This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay."

Go figure :|

yeah, who would have thought one of the foremost authorities on Eve: Online economics and gameplay would be posting so many correct things in this thread

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1742 - 2014-04-25 16:27:12 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Please....the dev's have made it explicitly clear that null sec stations and POS's will enjoy far lower mfg costs that high sec because of this ridiculous idea that sov null sec has more inherent risk than high sec.



There is not just risk in null, there is cost too.

The cost of transporting goods to high sec. The cost of rent. The cost of sitting in station 75% of your play time becuase there is NOTHING you can do about a cloaky camper other than stay docked.

If null is so great, with no draw backs, then why is such a high % of the player base still in high? Because hull is NOT that great!
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1743 - 2014-04-25 16:40:44 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

The sand is being drained away from the sandbox. That's all I'm saying. Eve is slowly starting to look like a theme park with no barriers of entry, no cooperation or interaction required to achieve serious results or goals.


Barriers of entry are more of a themepark trait, not sandbox. There is nothing sandboxy about having to grind through a billion quests to unlock the ability for your character to set up a factory.



If EVE were purely a sandbox, there wouldn't be skills to train, nor any PVE content, nor NPC's ....

EVE works as a game ecosystem because it is a hybrid of multiple game types - sandbox, pve, everything in between ... it can suck in people who would never try PVP, and gradually expose them to it and even get them to try it.

With such an amazingly integrated game system that is able to draw in players of all types, why would anyone want to destroy that by restricting certain types of gameplay? No amount of forcing will get non-pvp players to magically convert into pvp players (they'll simply go elsewhere) ... might as well instead maintain a game system complex and deep enough to allow both types to thrive, with even the non-pvp players being subject to various levels of pvp depending on what activities they participate in.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1744 - 2014-04-25 16:42:02 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Please....the dev's have made it explicitly clear that null sec stations and POS's will enjoy far lower mfg costs that high sec because of this ridiculous idea that sov null sec has more inherent risk than high sec.



There is not just risk in null, there is cost too.

The cost of transporting goods to high sec. The cost of rent. The cost of sitting in station 75% of your play time becuase there is NOTHING you can do about a cloaky camper other than stay docked.

If null is so great, with no draw backs, then why is such a high % of the player base still in high? Because hull is NOT that great!


§1: Wrong.

§2: Wrong

§3: Because you don't think.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Korthan Doshu
Doomheim
#1745 - 2014-04-25 16:44:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Please....the dev's have made it explicitly clear that null sec stations and POS's will enjoy far lower mfg costs that high sec because of this ridiculous idea that sov null sec has more inherent risk than high sec.



There is not just risk in null, there is cost too.

The cost of transporting goods to high sec. The cost of rent. The cost of sitting in station 75% of your play time becuase there is NOTHING you can do about a cloaky camper other than stay docked.

If null is so great, with no draw backs, then why is such a high % of the player base still in high? Because hull is NOT that great!


§1: Wrong.

§2: Wrong

§3: Because you don't think.


I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that nullsec could already be doing more industry if they tried harder. But they really do have risks and costs that highsec producers don't have, and those are part of why it's easier for them to just import from highsec. CCP clearly perceives this to be the case and wants to remedy that.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1746 - 2014-04-25 17:05:39 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:

EVE works as a game ecosystem because it is a hybrid of multiple game types - sandbox, pve, everything in between ... it can suck in people who would never try PVP, and gradually expose them to it and even get them to try it.



I cannot put into words just how much this "try it, you will like it:" mind set absolutely drives me MAD with anger,

How DARE you think that you know more than someone else, how they enjoy playing a game.

ANY attempt to force PvP on someone that is not interested, is NOT going to make the realize they are really a closet sociopath that gets their kicks by pulling the wings off flies, salting snells and ruining other peoples' day in internet spaceships.

Attempts to force carebears to PvP, simply results in then cancelling their subscription.... PERIOD!!!!

EVE should embrace ALL play styles.

If you want to PvP, there are TONS of places in the game for that.

I have no interest in PvP. CCP either lets me play the game the way I want, avoiding PvP, or I don't play.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1747 - 2014-04-25 17:08:10 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:

EVE works as a game ecosystem because it is a hybrid of multiple game types - sandbox, pve, everything in between ... it can suck in people who would never try PVP, and gradually expose them to it and even get them to try it.



I cannot put into words just how much this "try it, you will like it:" mind set absolutely drives me MAD with anger,

How DARE you think that you know more than someone else, how they enjoy playing a game.

because perusing the eve-o forums i find nearly every day that i know more about everything than 95% of eve players so it is a fairly safe bet i know more about what they would like than they do

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1748 - 2014-04-25 17:09:45 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Please....the dev's have made it explicitly clear that null sec stations and POS's will enjoy far lower mfg costs that high sec because of this ridiculous idea that sov null sec has more inherent risk than high sec.



There is not just risk in null, there is cost too.

The cost of transporting goods to high sec. The cost of rent. The cost of sitting in station 75% of your play time becuase there is NOTHING you can do about a cloaky camper other than stay docked.

If null is so great, with no draw backs, then why is such a high % of the player base still in high? Because hull is NOT that great!


§1: Wrong.

§2: Wrong

§3: Because you don't think.



Apparently there are THOUSANDS of us null-carebears (I do not consider it an insult, I own it) that do not think, because we all sit around in station or POS commenting that there is NOTHING we can do to deal with that mother father null camper AGAIN! Nothing. can't find them. Can't kill them. Can't prevent them from pulling up beside you and lighting a cyno.

So, we just go back to high sec, where we can actually, you know, play the game!


Cloaky camper... the #1 killer of null profit, and the #1 thing that keeps people in high sec.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1749 - 2014-04-25 17:15:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:

EVE works as a game ecosystem because it is a hybrid of multiple game types - sandbox, pve, everything in between ... it can suck in people who would never try PVP, and gradually expose them to it and even get them to try it.



I cannot put into words just how much this "try it, you will like it:" mind set absolutely drives me MAD with anger,

How DARE you think that you know more than someone else, how they enjoy playing a game.

because perusing the eve-o forums i find nearly every day that i know more about everything than 95% of eve players so it is a fairly safe bet i know more about what they would like than they do


Ugh... the arrogance! To think that you know what I enjoy more than I know what I enjoy?

Seriously, can you not see how insane that is?


I see posts from people like "I can't imagine anything more boring that sitting in a belt mining asteroids all day" and I think... yeah, you have the right to not enjoy that. I would never think that I know more than you, what you enjoy.


Why, when you see a post from someone that says they have no interest in PvP, do you think that you know their likes and dislikes more than they do?


ALL your mindset can do is force people to stop playing.


You can not make me play the game the way you want me to play it, because you can not make me play the game!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1750 - 2014-04-25 17:17:57 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Ugh... the arrogance! To think that you know what I enjoy more than I know what I enjoy?

Seriously, can you not see how insane that is?

one would think it would be, but when choosing between what we would prefer to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible we must go with the latter despite our unfailing capacity and preference to believe the former

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1751 - 2014-04-25 17:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Blah

His blah with lots of spaces.!

My Blah.


Apparently there are THOUSANDS of us null-carebears (I do not consider it an insult, I own it) that do not think, because we all sit around in station or POS commenting that there is NOTHING we can do to deal with that mother father null camper AGAIN! Nothing. can't find them. Can't kill them. Can't prevent them from pulling up beside you and lighting a cyno.

So, we just go back to high sec, where we can actually, you know, play the game!

Cloaky camper... the #1 killer of null profit, and the #1 thing that keeps people in high sec.


Because of density. There are tons of way to go around AFK cloakers, search my posts in F&ID and you'll find a list, or search for topics around removing AFK cloaking in F&ID and you find lists. I don't care about AFK cloakers because I have the means to nullify them. If you are incapable of doing that, you should consider playing another game. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1752 - 2014-04-25 17:23:14 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Because of density. There are tons of way to go around AFK cloakers, search my posts in F&ID and you'll find a list, or search for topics around removing AFK cloaking in F&ID and you find lists. I don't care about AFK cloakers because I have the means to nullify them. If you are incapable of doing that, you should consider playing another game. Roll

yes yes yes, we all know the "flee to highsec" one you've been such a fan of

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Destiven Mare
Ghost Net Industrialists
Valkyrie Alliance
#1753 - 2014-04-25 17:32:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
Destiven Mare wrote:
A significant number of subscribers are clamoring for a dev blog in this series and instead CCP issues a fluff piece on one of their own??!!

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/developer-spotlight-goliath/

I have zero issue with Goliath; I am curious to know whether this "dev blog" is a calculated move on CCP's part to further inflame industrialists or just more evidence of an utterly and absurdly inept PR department inside CCP.

CCP Eterne is a "Community Representative and Live Events Author for EVE Online." I kinda doubt he (she?) has much of a hand in the industry changes. Devblogs aren't some sort of scarce resource that require the entire output of the company to pen -- they can have their non-developer and non-designer folks put out devblogs without somehow choking off the potential for others.

That being said, I feel your weariness.



You and I are are absolutely on the same page. Any number of people at CCP can issue a dev blog. In fact, several have been issued since this iteration was authored. I am just flabbergasted that CCP issued pure advertising as we grow more frustrated with the silence in this arena.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1754 - 2014-04-25 17:35:07 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Because of density. There are tons of way to go around AFK cloakers, search my posts in F&ID and you'll find a list, or search for topics around removing AFK cloaking in F&ID and you find lists. I don't care about AFK cloakers because I have the means to nullify them. If you are incapable of doing that, you should consider playing another game. Roll

yes yes yes, we all know the "flee to highsec" one you've been such a fan of


I am not at all a fan of that. If you would study my corp history and my killboard you would know where I live and what I do. But that's too much to ask form such an important person like you. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#1755 - 2014-04-25 17:47:20 UTC
I was thinking of setting up my first POS this weekend. It would be pretty much exclusively for ME/PE research, BPCs and soon some T2 invention, but I'm not sure it will be worth it with these changes.

I farm/make my own charters and fuel, and to me it's worth the 100M or so a month to not wait 30 days for a research slot even in my somewhat remote home system, and my understanding is currently you don't even need to expose your BPOs if your POS is in the same system, or close system with the right science skills. However, with these changes let me get this straight:

1) The time I spent farming faction standing will almost be completely wasted
2) I'll still need to fuel and charter my POS
3) My BPOs will now be vulnerable when transporting, or having my corp war decced and POS attacked if I can't be online for a couple days and can't retrieve my BPOs in time.
4) I'll have to pay the same NPC tax as I would using the soon to be unlimited and completely safe NPC facilities.

Someone please tell me why I should bother having a POS after these changes? Unless we are getting some huge bonus somewhere I haven't seen, it seems to me to be a no brainer to *maybe* pay an up to 14% surcharge to have complete safety and save 100M or so a month on fuel and charters.
Flay Nardieu
#1756 - 2014-04-25 18:04:29 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
I was thinking of setting up my first POS this weekend. It would be pretty much exclusively for ME/PE research, BPCs and soon some T2 invention, but I'm not sure it will be worth it with these changes.

I farm/make my own charters and fuel, and to me it's worth the 100M or so a month to not wait 30 days for a research slot even in my somewhat remote home system, and my understanding is currently you don't even need to expose your BPOs if your POS is in the same system, or close system with the right science skills. However, with these changes let me get this straight:

1) The time I spent farming faction standing will almost be completely wasted
2) I'll still need to fuel and charter my POS
3) My BPOs will now be vulnerable when transporting, or having my corp war decced and POS attacked if I can't be online for a couple days and can't retrieve my BPOs in time.
4) I'll have to pay the same NPC tax as I would using the soon to be unlimited and completely safe NPC facilities.

Someone please tell me why I should bother having a POS after these changes? Unless we are getting some huge bonus somewhere I haven't seen, it seems to me to be a no brainer to *maybe* pay an up to 14% surcharge to have complete safety and save 100M or so a month on fuel and charters.


If launched as planned you won't have much if any advantage, which sucks, operating a POS can be rewarding experience, my first was in 0.4 low sec till I got the ability to set in high...
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1757 - 2014-04-25 18:04:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Blah

His blah with lots of spaces.!

My Blah.


Apparently there are THOUSANDS of us null-carebears (I do not consider it an insult, I own it) that do not think, because we all sit around in station or POS commenting that there is NOTHING we can do to deal with that mother father null camper AGAIN! Nothing. can't find them. Can't kill them. Can't prevent them from pulling up beside you and lighting a cyno.

So, we just go back to high sec, where we can actually, you know, play the game!

Cloaky camper... the #1 killer of null profit, and the #1 thing that keeps people in high sec.


Because of density. There are tons of way to go around AFK cloakers, search my posts in F&ID and you'll find a list, or search for topics around removing AFK cloaking in F&ID and you find lists. I don't care about AFK cloakers because I have the means to nullify them. If you are incapable of doing that, you should consider playing another game. Roll



Yep... Spent a bunch of time on F&ID, trying to wade through the hundreds of threads, all quickly locked by ISD as duplicate.

Didn't see and lists of ideas, but....
1) It is clear that CCP has no intention of cloaky camping.
2) this isn't the game for me.

I'll be cancelling auto resubscribe again. No reason to pay for 4 accounts to sit in station or POS because there is STILL nothing that can be done about cloaky camping.


I've quit for this before, a couple time. 6 months go by, I start to miss my friends that play... I think, meh, let's play EVE again. I resub accounts. I get set up somewhere.... then a cloaky shows up, I'm unable to play..... so I again drop sub....



Peace out.... again.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1758 - 2014-04-25 18:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
LHA Tarawa wrote:

Yep... Spent a bunch of time on F&ID, trying to wade through the hundreds of threads, all quickly locked by ISD as duplicate.

Didn't see and lists of ideas, but....
1) It is clear that CCP has no intention of cloaky camping.
2) this isn't the game for me.

I'll be cancelling auto resubscribe again. No reason to pay for 4 accounts to sit in station or POS because there is STILL nothing that can be done about cloaky camping.


I've quit for this before, a couple time. 6 months go by, I start to miss my friends that play... I think, meh, let's play EVE again. I resub accounts. I get set up somewhere.... then a cloaky shows up, I'm unable to play..... so I again drop sub....

Peace out.... again.


That's your choice, and a good one if you feel that the game doesn't offer you a good pastime. Smile Nothing is worse than getting bitter and don't be able to enjoy the game.

Btw. and this, only two of the lists.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1759 - 2014-04-25 18:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
LHA Tarawa wrote:





Yep... Spent a bunch of time on F&ID, trying to wade through the hundreds of threads, all quickly locked by ISD as duplicate.

Didn't see and lists of ideas, but....
1) It is clear that CCP has no intention of cloaky camping.
2) this isn't the game for me.

I'll be cancelling auto resubscribe again. No reason to pay for 4 accounts to sit in station or POS because there is STILL nothing that can be done about cloaky camping.


I've quit for this before, a couple time. 6 months go by, I start to miss my friends that play... I think, meh, let's play EVE again. I resub accounts. I get set up somewhere.... then a cloaky shows up, I'm unable to play..... so I again drop sub....



Peace out.... again.


Tell you what.
How does this sound?

CCP gets rid of cloaky campers as soon as they get rid of suicide ganking in high sec.
While I understand your frustration with a cloaky camper, I don't believe it is any more risky than running around in a high value ship in some high sec chokepoints, or mining in many systems, particularly those where the Code griefers hang out.

And I like to see you have accepted that null sec has just been gifted the small size, high end value item markets.
50,000 DCII's easily fit in a JF, and based on what I am seeing, that is a product that null sec has a massive massive advantage RIGHT NOW building, let alone after these changes are made.

Someone posted that current round trip costs for a JF is about 45 million.
(edit. Bad math, slipped a digit.)
If you are moving 10 billion ISK of product (say 20000 DCII's at their new null sec price of 500,000), that 45 million now becomes, what 0.45% transportation cost?

And it gets even better.
If you really want to keep your costs (and risk) down, just use a black ops cyno to jump a Viator into a low sec system with a cargo hold of 10,000 cu m, which holds those 2000 DCII's. The Amarr and Jita market move about 10,000 combined daily. How many are actually consumed is another matter. One of the chief architects of these changes said about 5000.
So it would be dead easy for an enterprising null sec group, with strict controls and a huge reach ingame, to completely corner the DCII market and price out of existence every high sec manufacturer.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1760 - 2014-04-25 18:45:13 UTC
where's our cost advantage to dciis?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.