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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#521 - 2014-04-24 18:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.


i actually thought things were working as intended. when we run fleets with orca support, i tell everyone to get in their covs. but when they mine on their own time i recommend retties. And when we mine ice, everyone gets in a procurer for obvious reasons.

Most ppl spend more time mining on their own and hardly paying attention than in fleets. So the Rettie is their go to barge because of their independent and afk friendly nature.

Im not against the coming changes. I do what i can with tools given to me. But lets just be clear why the rettie is so popular. U could nerf its yield into the ground, and its still better suited to the behavior of most miners than the Cov or Procurer. But if the plan is to get all three barges used in equal numbers...thats gonna be a long hard road. Good luck i guess.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nalelmir Ahashion
Industrial Management and Engineering
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#522 - 2014-04-24 20:06:19 UTC
I would like to recommend everyone due to the upcoming changes:
1. train cap skills - > shorter cycle times = more cap
2. train cpu skills and mining laser upgrades skills > additional MLU on low = more cpu needed.
Dave Stark
#523 - 2014-04-25 08:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

early morning maths says that's false if you're using >1 mining implant.

but considering the last time i checked, the slot 7 mining implant was an obscene price so... yeah we can safely ignore that as an every day thing.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2014-04-25 16:30:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

early morning maths says that's false if you're using >1 mining implant.

but considering the last time i checked, the slot 7 mining implant was an obscene price so... yeah we can safely ignore that as an every day thing.


I didn't check the ore math, but I am a little sad they didn't add 500 m3 of ore hold to the hulk so you could do 3 ice cycles before unloading. Oh well.
Dave Stark
#525 - 2014-04-25 17:36:22 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

early morning maths says that's false if you're using >1 mining implant.

but considering the last time i checked, the slot 7 mining implant was an obscene price so... yeah we can safely ignore that as an every day thing.


I didn't check the ore math, but I am a little sad they didn't add 500 m3 of ore hold to the hulk so you could do 3 ice cycles before unloading. Oh well.


yes, that would have been nice.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#526 - 2014-04-25 17:49:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.


making the exhumers a lot cheaper might help ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Axe Coldon
#527 - 2014-04-25 20:03:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:

Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.

But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.

The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.

How to fix? I see three methods.
1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips.
2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest.
3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).

#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding.


In high sec with a skiff I would agree. But mining in null where Bistot in the Large (index) belt is 100,000 units the skiff doesn't suffer from short cycle problems. With increased yeild and 360dps and lots of tank..hell maybe they wouldn't have to warp out. just stay and fight the nuets. LOL

My favorite change though is a range bonus to the survey scanners. (with the links). being at 22km and the lasers at 29km (old system rorq bonuses) was a pain.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#528 - 2014-04-25 22:32:20 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

Could you guys make all crystals 10m3 in size? Life would be much more easier. Especially for covetor.


"we guys" being the CSM? No, we can't. We have no access to the codebase and AFAIK none of us are programmers anyway.

We can bring a strong, well-constructed proposal to the attention of the devs and champion it if that's any help.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#529 - 2014-04-26 07:31:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.

I think a more accurate point would be that the hulk shouldn't be the worst in 2 categories.
Worst tank, best yield. That state is possibly ok.
But worst ore hold isn't ok on top of that state.
If Ore Hold was equal to the Procurer/Skiff, you still can't idle in a hulk like you can with a Mack, but you actually get 2 full cycles without having to worry about emptying it.

TLDR Version. Either tank has to become better (Equal to Mack) or Ore Hold better (Equal to Skiff) to boost the hulk from dead last.
Dave Stark
#530 - 2014-04-26 07:33:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

Could you guys make all crystals 10m3 in size? Life would be much more easier. Especially for covetor.


"we guys" being the CSM? No, we can't. We have no access to the codebase and AFAIK none of us are programmers anyway.

We can bring a strong, well-constructed proposal to the attention of the devs and champion it if that's any help.


or they can read this quote, from the OP

Quote:
To make sure that barge pilots can make use of the many different ORE types available in belts and anomalies, we are reducing the volume of all mining crystals by 60%.
Dave Stark
#531 - 2014-04-26 07:34:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.

I think a more accurate point would be that the hulk shouldn't be the worst in 2 categories.
Worst tank, best yield. That state is possibly ok.
But worst ore hold isn't ok on top of that state.
If Ore Hold was equal to the Procurer/Skiff, you still can't idle in a hulk like you can with a Mack, but you actually get 2 full cycles without having to worry about emptying it.

TLDR Version. Either tank has to become better (Equal to Mack) or Ore Hold better (Equal to Skiff) to boost the hulk from dead last.


it shouldn't have the worst tank, rather than it not having the worst ore hold. besides, a small ore hold promotes fleet use, a small tank doesn't.
every cargo module in the game reduces a ship's ehp. cargo expanders reduce hull hp, cargo rigs reduce armour hp etc.
it follows that logic that the hulk should have more tank than the mackinaw.
Vaellend
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#532 - 2014-04-26 09:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaellend
pls forgive me when im not reading all the posts here and the search function dont likes me :)

i just want to ask/suggest if the following mining bug/error will be maybe resolved in the sumer patch
this bug was once fixed for 1 or 2 days and then patched out again i dont know why


- when u finish a roid your strip miner are sometimes (or very often) starting a new cycle without have any new roid locked
- when u warp out of a belt and had 95% of your cycle done, ur strip miner stop without getting any ore out of it as u enter warp
(i guess this has todo with the "u cant loot in warp anymore fix)


cheers
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#533 - 2014-04-26 11:14:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


it shouldn't have the worst tank, rather than it not having the worst ore hold. besides, a small ore hold promotes fleet use, a small tank doesn't.
every cargo module in the game reduces a ship's ehp. cargo expanders reduce hull hp, cargo rigs reduce armour hp etc.
it follows that logic that the hulk should have more tank than the mackinaw.


many times this. The small ore hold is what defines the hulks role as a fleet barge. buffing its tank would be so much better than buffing its ore hold.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#534 - 2014-04-26 13:45:02 UTC
I am thinking the ore hold, tank, and yield are all simply the key focus features for three different play styles.

HULK:
If you have fleet support, which includes removal of NPC and timely warning of any PC threat not stopped in time, then you may WANT tank and ore hold, but you don't NEED them. You are getting yield, validating group play as the intended most rewarding form.

MACKINAW:
You don't have fleet support, but neither do you need to worry about other players trying to pop you before you can react. You may WANT tank and yield, but you don't NEED them as much as you need ore hold. The ability to pack in as much ore as a hauler gives you more value for solo or less supported play.

SKIFF:
You don't have fleet support, you are after higher value ore with hostile NPC's, or other players are able to threaten you too much for the other two exhumers to be used. You may WANT yield and ore hold, but you NEED that tank to avoid becoming a drifting wreck in space. The ability to survive defines the Skiff as the only realistic option when threatened beyond a certain point.

Secondary points:
The Hulk must have superior yield, so group play has the incentive to happen. If it can be used on a level as practical as the others without group play, then group play becomes secondary to this other version able to exploit this yield. Every dev knows players will grab the path of least resistance, given the opportunity. The Hulk needs to be tied to group play, or lose the yield superiority.
FRIENDLY group play option by design.

The Mack is for relatively safe solo or small group play.
This is going to happen. The devs want it to happen, but only when the other options are out of reach.
It's simply better for players to log into the MMO, even when they have noone else to play with at the moment.
SOLO play option by design.

The Skiff ultimately is for the best rewarding game experience, even if not always the highest rewarding ISK one.
You are getting the thrill of playing your ship against another player, getting the ore is the incentive for you to show up.
I believe higher value ores want the skiff, IE: Mercoxit was in the past safest to acquire using a Skiff.
HOSTILE group play by design.

This is what I believe is intended.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Axe Coldon
#535 - 2014-04-26 13:46:27 UTC
Vaellend wrote:
pls forgive me when im not reading all the posts here and the search function dont likes me :)

i just want to ask/suggest if the following mining bug/error will be maybe resolved in the sumer patch
this bug was once fixed for 1 or 2 days and then patched out again i dont know why


- when u finish a roid your strip miner are sometimes (or very often) starting a new cycle without have any new roid locked
- when u warp out of a belt and had 95% of your cycle done, ur strip miner stop without getting any ore out of it as u enter warp
(i guess this has todo with the "u cant loot in warp anymore fix)


cheers


I would like that fixed also. Sadly they did a while back..and then they rolled back the fix the following week. For like 5 days my barge cycles would all end if the roid popped. it was great.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#536 - 2014-04-26 19:00:54 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.

I think a more accurate point would be that the hulk shouldn't be the worst in 2 categories.
Worst tank, best yield. That state is possibly ok.
But worst ore hold isn't ok on top of that state.
If Ore Hold was equal to the Procurer/Skiff, you still can't idle in a hulk like you can with a Mack, but you actually get 2 full cycles without having to worry about emptying it.

TLDR Version. Either tank has to become better (Equal to Mack) or Ore Hold better (Equal to Skiff) to boost the hulk from dead last.


The Hulk is about fleet mining and likely fleet mining while at the keyboard and chatting to corpies while keeping a beady eye open. After the proposed changes the Hulk will have the best yield. There has to be a downside such as a small ore hold otherwise everyone will go back to using the Hulk. I do agree that the Hulk should be given some more EHP or additional resistance to damage. How much more I would leave up to CCP to decide.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#537 - 2014-04-26 21:48:54 UTC
I think a combat barge should be developed based off of an updated Venture type frigate.
Dave Stark
#538 - 2014-04-26 21:56:57 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
I think a combat barge should be developed based off of an updated Venture type frigate.


*points at the skiff*
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#539 - 2014-04-26 22:37:46 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
I think a combat barge should be developed based off of an updated Venture type frigate.


*points at the skiff*

Not even close.

The Venture has an accessory slot.
The Modulated Deep Core Miner II modules eat a turret slot, meaning it can only fit two of these in it's three high slots.

The Venture is also notable as an agile ship, close enough to compare against a combat frigate. The Skiff.... handles like a cow.
It just happens the other two exhumers are worse than that, even.

They just don't really compare that well.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Dave Stark
#540 - 2014-04-26 22:47:52 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
I think a combat barge should be developed based off of an updated Venture type frigate.


*points at the skiff*

Not even close.

The Venture has an accessory slot.
The Modulated Deep Core Miner II modules eat a turret slot, meaning it can only fit two of these in it's three high slots.

The Venture is also notable as an agile ship, close enough to compare against a combat frigate. The Skiff.... handles like a cow.
It just happens the other two exhumers are worse than that, even.

They just don't really compare that well.


yep, a ship with a tank comparable to that of a battleship, with a sig radius comparable to that of a cruiser, and a bonus to drones similar to any other drone based combat ship...

considering it's categorically not a combat ship, that's quite a significant list of combat advantages it has.