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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#501 - 2014-04-21 17:39:01 UTC
Honestly, I'd rather Skiff drone damage bonus was fixed at 10% per ship skill level like every other ship in EvE instead of just handing out a maxed 50% to every joker who steps into the cockpit.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#502 - 2014-04-21 19:14:05 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather Skiff drone damage bonus was fixed at 10% per ship skill level like every other ship in EvE instead of just handing out a maxed 50% to every joker who steps into the cockpit.


rebuttal: Guristas ships.

Most miners are going to have a high level mining barge/exhumer skill before they sink a lot of time into drones, so the effect on actual gameplay is so minimal that it's hardly worth addressing the point.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#503 - 2014-04-21 19:24:21 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather Skiff drone damage bonus was fixed at 10% per ship skill level like every other ship in EvE instead of just handing out a maxed 50% to every joker who steps into the cockpit.

My only problem is it would be a real hassle to get that last 10%. For the most part I havent trained exhumers V on any of my accounts because its not worth the 3+ weeks of training (it doesn't bramch of to anyother specializations and the rewards are small for the sjips I fly. If it were 5% per level and the other 25% managed to get finagled in somehow I wouldn't mind as much.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#504 - 2014-04-21 21:37:16 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Menor Minayin wrote:
So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner?

Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.



Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?
Exhumers need a slot added that only accepts survey scanner modules. Problem solved.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#505 - 2014-04-21 21:45:07 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?
Exhumers need a slot added that only accepts survey scanner modules. Problem solved.

Flip the issue over, instead.

Create a type of hardpoint for the exhumer oriented mining lasers, just like exists for turrets and launchers.

Then, you can add in utility slots, and make the mining craft much more interesting.
Doctor Nakajima
Long John Silver.
#506 - 2014-04-22 13:50:47 UTC
I don't think the definition of afk is accurate here. Mining is sitting while the machine works. Is the way it is, nothing changes if you concentrate looking fixedly at the ice or ore.

One thing is fighting bots as that's an unfair competition and another thing, way different, is to pretend miners cannot consult a map or blink their eyes because of some 'enforcer' said so.

All this code and all the years of hulkageddons are nothing but a poor excuse to hide the truth behind it. Sometimes the unability to find the essence of EvE (it is science fiction, everytime you speak of 'pixel-star-ships' you put a cramp in EvE's coffin lid) and sometimes a mere way to slow down competition.

Concerning defense, and if you are not obsesively aiming to maximize isk per hour (do you? really that's what you are doing here?), the odds are allways against the gankers. I recomend you to read the Spphie Kobayashi's book '101 ways to mock a ganker'. But tilapia's link also may work and it is free.
Lidia Caderu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#507 - 2014-04-23 09:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#508 - 2014-04-23 12:06:57 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.
The Role Bonus gets reduced for the Procurer (and Skiff) for it to be on par with Retriever (Mackinaw) Yield, before fitting and skills. Results in 2.5 Strip Miners. As a result, the Covetor/Hulk define their role as Yield Queens further, like intended:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We'll be keeping the basic role breakdown that the 2012 balance created, but adjusting the bonuses quite significantly within that framework
The impact this has on yield w/ skills and fitting can be seen in a sheet updated by Steve Ronuken for this post:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ

NPEISDRIP

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#509 - 2014-04-23 15:07:59 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.

If you have Mining Barge 5, the procurer can mine more effectively than it can today, thanks to the -2% cycle reduction per level bonus added to the ship.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Lidia Caderu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2014-04-23 21:14:33 UTC
Querns wrote:
Lidia Caderu wrote:
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.

If you have Mining Barge 5, the procurer can mine more effectively than it can today, thanks to the -2% cycle reduction per level bonus added to the ship.

Are you sure? I've made some calculations and it shows that yeild will drop.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#511 - 2014-04-23 22:42:39 UTC
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Querns wrote:
Lidia Caderu wrote:
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.

If you have Mining Barge 5, the procurer can mine more effectively than it can today, thanks to the -2% cycle reduction per level bonus added to the ship.

Are you sure? I've made some calculations and it shows that yeild will drop.

Well, assuming fozzie's little chart is correct it will go up. The yield will drop per cycle but the cycles will be shorter.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#512 - 2014-04-24 05:02:00 UTC
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.

Psychotic Monk for CSM9 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 you want content in highsec? vote Monk

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#513 - 2014-04-24 06:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Rowells wrote:
Lidia Caderu wrote:
Querns wrote:
Lidia Caderu wrote:
So you basically reduced Procurer's bonus from 200% to 150% ??? WHY?

EDIT: It would be good to increase bonus to mining time at least to 3 %, and reduce a bit ice mining time role bonus to compensate.

If you have Mining Barge 5, the procurer can mine more effectively than it can today, thanks to the -2% cycle reduction per level bonus added to the ship.

Are you sure? I've made some calculations and it shows that yeild will drop.

Well, assuming fozzie's little chart is correct it will go up. The yield will drop per cycle but the cycles will be shorter.

I dunno...

Current Procurer has a +200% bonus giving it 3 effective strip miners, correct?

New Procurer will have a 2% cycle time bonus per level and a +150% yield role bonus.
1 +1.5 = 2.5 / 0.9 = 2.778 effective strips. Seems to me that yield is getting nerfed by about 7.5% It might have been compensated when they intended to give it an extra low for another MLU for about a 1% increase in yield when fitted for it, but I'm not seeing it for now.

Also looks like Ice was nerfed by going from 33% ice harvester cycle time to 36% (1 * 0.4 * 0.9).

Perhaps later I'll go over all the other ships too to ensure it's all fine and dandy.

Edit: and by later, it would appear I intended to say as soon as I finished making this post. Find the results here.

Please tell me if there's anything wrong in my spreadsheet. I'm afraid to say I'm too lazy to implement too much function -- such as for implants -- due to laziness, but this gives a baseline and any implant effects would apply to both before and after equally for no net change. Hell, to even add any skills but barges/exhumers was kinda pointless, but who cares. I did it anyways.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#514 - 2014-04-24 07:01:24 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Darkblad
Doomheim
#515 - 2014-04-24 08:43:21 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Edit: and by later, it would appear I intended to say as soon as I finished making this post. Find the results here.

Please tell me if there's anything wrong in my spreadsheet. I'm afraid to say I'm too lazy to implement too much function -- such as for implants -- due to laziness, but this gives a baseline and any implant effects would apply to both before and after equally for no net change. Hell, to even add any skills but barges/exhumers was kinda pointless, but who cares. I did it anyways.
Looks fine. I compared the yield per minute summer/current using my sheet and percentages match.
You can use a copy of my yield calculator sheet to get yield/min with implant and fleet boost bonuses.

NPEISDRIP

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#516 - 2014-04-24 13:23:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.


well if the mack is getting used even with hauler support because the hulk just gets ganked, then nerf the mack/rettie hp and/or buff hulk/cov HP. or swap them round.

but if the heavy use of macks/retties is just because the vast majority of miners are loners and their alts, then its the nature of how they mine that pushes them into the rettie, not an imbalance between barges.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#517 - 2014-04-24 13:49:49 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Anomaly One wrote:
I find the nerf to the mack/retriever.. slightly annoying..
but I'm still gonna use them, really there's no point in using the hulk unless you are desperately trying to get ganked, and no..nerfing the mack/ret to make us use the hulk won't cut it.


So what you're saying is that the Retriever & Mackinaw haven't been nerfed enough to balance them with the Hulk, even with the yield buff the Hulk just got?

OK I'll flag that to the balance team, thank you for your feedback.


well if the mack is getting used even with hauler support because the hulk just gets ganked, then nerf the mack/rettie hp and/or buff hulk/cov HP. or swap them round.

but if the heavy use of macks/retties is just because the vast majority of miners are loners and their alts, then its the nature of how they mine that pushes them into the rettie, not an imbalance between barges.

Agreed with this.

I believe the hulk is supposed to be better at larger group operations, and worse at small and solo group.
I feel an experienced player should automatically disregard the hulk as an option unless they expected to be playing in a group environment with support.

Otherwise, noone needs to use the other exhumers, since it is always somehow practical to just use a hulk instead.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#518 - 2014-04-24 15:41:27 UTC
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#519 - 2014-04-24 15:53:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

Convenient? Possibly.
Certainly more simple.

But then, for miners able to stagger the outputs of the lasers, this was never really an issue.
Lidia Caderu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2014-04-24 17:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Malcanis wrote:
IIRC the Hulk can now hold 2 full cycles in it's hold now, effectively doubling it's "convenience" score.

Could you guys make all crystals 10m3 in size? Life would be much more easier. Especially for covetor.


@Goldensaver
Correct, I have same result on procurer. So yeild will be lower.

So as I've said it would be nice to make 3% bonus to cycle time and reduce a bit ice cycle time (role) bonus to compensate.