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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

First post First post First post
Author
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#321 - 2014-03-24 13:58:15 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with.

The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh.
You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..



No it is bad.

There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income.

....

So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.


Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.


Except someone then decided to claim that it was a good idea to have a wormhole ESS that takes part of your income in exchange for increased security. The original point is irrelevant because people WERE suggesting something a lot more like the ESS.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#322 - 2014-03-24 14:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Two step wrote:
No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs.
Not a nullseccer, never lost a ship via a logoff gang.

Two step wrote:
I'd say the split is pretty clearly:

folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor
newer folks: opposed
I'd say you have trouble reading.. :p

I've lived in wspace for in fact over 2 years, in 3 different systems. All <= C4 (and I have no interest in moving up).
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#323 - 2014-03-24 14:09:47 UTC
I'm personally with the "get rid of of sensor overlay entirely" group. This "feature" was to me the true, and blatantly visual, end to the exploration profession in Eve. It was the end to the unknown. You may not know what it is, you may not have an immediate warp in to it's location, but you certainly, and immediately, know it's there, without any effort whatsoever, and thus you're not discovering it because everybody and their mother know its there as soon as they enter the system too. Not just K162s but EVERYTHING. It is to me nearly as bad as the static door was when y'all got rid of our hangers for a time. I miss the days when being an explorer in Eve actually meant something. Before you gave everyone the easy button. (although button is a bad choice of words since they don't even have to put forth the effort of pressing anything)
Malcolm Rennolds
Inquisition FiS Division
#324 - 2014-03-24 14:11:13 UTC
This change only makes it easier to gank site runners, and maybe once a year you'll find a fleet sitting on a static and get to fight them. But 99% of the time it is just a nerf to site running. Wormholes need more people, making living in them suck more is not the way to do it. Especially in c6 space where you're going to be regularly sieging dreads in sites.

Although I do love ganking caps running sites, might persuade me to move back to a wormhole with a static c6 connection.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#325 - 2014-03-24 14:11:34 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with.

The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh.
You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..



No it is bad.

There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income.

....

So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.


Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.



Wow nice. Regardless of the "point", it would be something that takes the loot, at which point the way that isk is generated IS a factor.

Not to mention those who actually live in WH's kinda like, in fact thrive on this No local thing. So having something that will now spam local chat would be just stupid.
Veskin Sentinel
White Pearl Initiative
Podfathers
#326 - 2014-03-24 14:18:14 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Veskin Sentinel wrote:
Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.

One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.

I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough.


I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here... If someone's trapped in a wormhole after a connection closes, it's either a K162 or wandering connection which will not be replaced in the hole that they are in, or a static connection which will reappear immediately even with the proposed changes...



Sorry, I'm just not familiar enough with wormholes. But if that case applies to all WH, then maybe the new idea is a bit more reasonable. Not sure if it's reasonable enough though.

www.veskin7.blogspot.com - my EVE related blog.

Trinneth
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#327 - 2014-03-24 14:28:56 UTC
It's great that you're that you're looking at this - the passive intel provided by the sensor overlay gave a significant advantage to the defender, so I'm glad this is being looked at.

However I'm not wild about your proposed solution - as many others have said, creating a situation where there's no way for the defender to get that intel is just as bad - the real advantage of the pre-odyssey system was that it was possible to spot a new signature pop up, but required a player to be actively scanning.
Meytal
Doomheim
#328 - 2014-03-24 14:32:21 UTC
Take baby steps. When you swing wildly with a huge stick, you hit all kinds of things that you didn't intend to hit and can cause unexpected problems. Make one small change at a time, see how it pans out, and then make another based on results from the first. If the first change doesn't work out, roll it back, figure out why, and push something new. Your Scrum development style supports this. Everything in me hopes and believes this is what you guys are doing with the new-POSes.

First revert the changes:

1) Rock mining sites are once again cosmic signatures.
2) The discovery overlay shows nothing for W-space, at all, ever.
3) You can scan without probes in space to see cosmic anomalies with 100% accuracy.

Then take a baby step:

1) The discovery overlay shows a list of the signatures and anomalies in a system beginning five minutes after you enter the system, and updates every five minutes after that.

This means that as soon as you jump into a system, your scanner shows nothing. You can scan for anomalies immediately, without dropping probes, or you can wait the five minutes for the 100% anomalies and signature IDs to show up. If you see activity, you might want an instant list. Otherwise, you might not care if it takes 5 minutes to appear.

If someone is actively scanning the system, they will see your new K162 signature appear immediately, and will be able to scan it immediately. Anyone who is not actively scanning the system will automatically see the new K162 signature ID appear no less than 5 minutes and no greater than 10 minutes later -- to account for varied login times and automatic scanner update windows.

Watch and see how that works. Just by virtue of making the scanner overlay less automatic, lazy farming fleets that grew to depend on it will die in a fire.

Another baby step might be causing K162 signatures to spawn only when they are entered; not at warp. I'm sure there are many more the community might suggest.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#329 - 2014-03-24 14:42:36 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Take baby steps. When you swing wildly with a huge stick, you hit all kinds of things that you didn't intend to hit and can cause unexpected problems. Make one small change at a time, see how it pans out, and then make another based on results from the first. If the first change doesn't work out, roll it back, figure out why, and push something new. Your Scrum development style supports this. Everything in me hopes and believes this is what you guys are doing with the new-POSes.

First revert the changes:

1) Rock mining sites are once again cosmic signatures.
2) The discovery overlay shows nothing for W-space, at all, ever.
3) You can scan without probes in space to see cosmic anomalies with 100% accuracy.

Then take a baby step:

1) The discovery overlay shows a list of the signatures and anomalies in a system beginning five minutes after you enter the system, and updates every five minutes after that.

This means that as soon as you jump into a system, your scanner shows nothing. You can scan for anomalies immediately, without dropping probes, or you can wait the five minutes for the 100% anomalies and signature IDs to show up. If you see activity, you might want an instant list. Otherwise, you might not care if it takes 5 minutes to appear.

If someone is actively scanning the system, they will see your new K162 signature appear immediately, and will be able to scan it immediately. Anyone who is not actively scanning the system will automatically see the new K162 signature ID appear no less than 5 minutes and no greater than 10 minutes later -- to account for varied login times and automatic scanner update windows.

Watch and see how that works. Just by virtue of making the scanner overlay less automatic, lazy farming fleets that grew to depend on it will die in a fire.

Another baby step might be causing K162 signatures to spawn only when they are entered; not at warp. I'm sure there are many more the community might suggest.


I like this, it makes sense, offering a variety of opportunities for players, giving the advantage to those who are paying attention while still offering an opportunity for secrecy and stealthy scouting.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#330 - 2014-03-24 14:51:48 UTC
C2 resident. chiming in.

1. Return to pre-odyssey functionality for scanners in wormhole space. No new artificial delay should be introduced as it is exactly as described, artificial. It is unbalanced in favor of the initiating party.

2. Set Ore sites in w-space back to signatures. With the soon to be introduced ore compressor, WH space mining has a chance to be relevant for corps. Maybe it isn't the best ISK/hr or maybe not even that much better than HS mining, but it will be an *option* with the introduction of that module. Setting Ore sites back to signatures will give residents enough security to attempt mining giving more chance for interaction with other players. Right now, they are probably ignored by a huge portion of w-space residents. Ore signatures + ore compression modules = new content in w-space.

Be very careful with the idea of making K162s instantiate on jump vs. warp. K162s in k-space will become virtually non-existent. Corporations like mine with a static k-space connection will open it only when needed and close it immediately when finished (if we're not lazy). This will limit k-space initiated exploration to non-K162 connections and will only instantiate in WH space if an explorer actually decides to enter the hole. The number of wandering K162s in WH space from k-space will decrease as a result as many explorers do not enter every wormhole but only those they feel they can handle.

Let's start with these two ideas. We all have additional desire for new content across EVE. I will be waiting patiently to see what new content is on the horizon

Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#331 - 2014-03-24 15:23:11 UTC
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
Deeone wrote:
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.


If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.

live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol


Yes, I've lived in one for a while. If the attacking fleet is all cloakies, they're gimping their fits and you should have a good chance in a fight. If you're mining in a wh you're doing it wrong. Get a venture, suck gas, and accept you'll die some times.


so im sure your corp would used the same tackle it uses on sieged dreads that it would on say rattlers and tengus in a c4.......I said TACKLE is cloaky t3s. If u dont understand thats just the part of the fleet that holds u down while their friends come im sorry. just cuz the first 5 guys in are cloaky dont mean the whole fleet is ffs. i get u guys want easy dread kills with this change but come on think about whats good for balance not just ganking.
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#332 - 2014-03-24 15:28:56 UTC
As many others stated:

Active intel gathering should allow for an up to date overview of what is going on in the system you are monitoring (e.a. no delay)

Vigilance should be rewarded.

The current system provides too much information, and combined with the sig and wormhole mappers everyone is using makes it WAY too obvious when something has changed.

I'm all for giving new signatures an invisibility timer that shields them from passive detection.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#333 - 2014-03-24 15:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
This change in my opinion favors the gankers and encourages rage rolling which is not much fun. I agree giving the sigs out to all for no effort is bad too.

My suggested remedy would be to require core probes to see/find wormhole objects. If the home team cares enough about their security to maintain an active probe watch they should be able to notice an incoming wormhole. Keep in mind many ships can't mount a probe without sacrificing some capability and the ones that can will have to split attention between dscan, probes and whatever else they are doing. That balance worked well in the past and seems like it would be easy to implement as all it would require is removing wormholes from the scanner results when probes are not deployed. An unintended side effect of making it easier to identify wormholes from other results by comparing results with probes to those without would speed up scanning routes a bit but that doesn't seem to be a problem as it isn't much different than what we did comparing sig sizes back in the deep space probe days.

This change fozzie proposed would allow you to open up a hole into someone's home, enter it, decide it's a dangerous place and then roll it away without the home team being able to disrupt the roll operation. In such a way it let's the ganker avoid pvp which is probably not the intent.
Von Keigai
#334 - 2014-03-24 15:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Von Keigai
I am a C4 resident. Small corp. I also solo hunt in wspace, and on occasion have my corpmates around to back me in a small gang. However we rarely find targets, and those that we do manage to kill are almost always newbs or otherwise obviously ignorant. This makes for somewhat depressing hunting. It's no wonder, though, since via the discovery scanner anyone with much of a clue is making sure there are no new connections every minute or more often.

I find it ridiculous that we can zip up our system and be guaranteed almost perfect safety, and run sites for 100m/character/hour. Blue loot means there is not even a market balance to this capability -- it is paid for via the inflation of everyone else's ISK. Of course, just because wspace is too safe does not mean we do not exploit it. We do.

I am a wspace hunter. I am undiscriminating. I will gank a mining barge if I can find one (though that is very rare for good reason). But that said, I want a reason to have to actually hunt, to make it be (real life human) hunting skill that gets me a kill and not just luck or the ignorance of my target. This requires getting targets out there that can be detected by skill. It also requires that non-ignorant targets actually be out there in space. The changes CCP is going to make to reprocessing will help this a lot, but I still think that mining in anoms is too large an exposure.


Here's what I think should be done. First, remove the discovery scanner's signature pushing in wspace. Sigs should never be detected in wspace without using probes. (This should also be the case in null unless upgraded, but that's another discussion.)

Second, give some more advantage to hunters. I think 5 minutes is too much. Here's what I think: use gate cloak. The general idea is: while gate cloak is held, that player cannot be detected in that system. In wspace, make K162s not be detectable until any ship that has crossed that wormhole drops gate cloak. As soon as any ship does drop its gate cloak, the wormhole is a normal K162 and can be scanned with probes. This gives an aggressor a minute to evaluate the situation, but he can only do it from that one position. Make a similar change to promote hunting in kspace: a player should not appear in local until he drops gate cloak.

To prevent wspace from losing connectivity, there should be a mechanic to make K162s eventually detectable. So, make it so that they have a 1/60 chance per minute to become detectable regardless of flown-throughness.

Also, the current design of ore anoms that are immediately knowable is unfair to rock miners. Miners cannot fight back; they should have the protection of being in a sig site. (And also mining is crap income by comparison to other stuff in wspace.) By contrast, a PVE fleet has significant PVP capability. Please revert the change that put ore sites in anoms.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#335 - 2014-03-24 15:38:36 UTC
Two step wrote:
Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.


5 +/- 2 minutes is much more than enough time to get a gank fleet in, kill something, and get back out. If we've done that in 90 seconds under the current mechanics, then your much bigger alliance could do a great deal more. The net effect will be large alliances driving small ones out of W-space.

A factor of minutes turns the problem from trivial hole control to trivial hole invasion. There has to be a less drastic solution.

I like the idea, posted above, of restricting the Discovery Scanner to Empire. Yes, people can spam probes, but that's because self-described hunters insisted that they must be able to pop into a system, blanket it with combat probes, and identify targets anywhere in system as quickly as possible, with the fair and natural consequence that defenders can blanket a system with combat probes and identify attackers anywhere in system as quickly as possible. If you want to revisit that mechanic, I would cheerfully support it.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Benjamin Hamburg
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2014-03-24 15:41:51 UTC
Didn't read all these 18 pages.

But I think a plain delay is bad. It could be better with more subtlety.

Make the signature appear when a certain number of warpin have been initiated on the other side. Number depending of the wh class. So as soon as you initiate warp (or land if you prefer) on the entrance, you create a "distorsion" or whatever that strengten the signal of the other side exit, thus making it visible after a certain level is reached. (3, 4, 5 warpin... it's up to you).
Christopher AET
Lethal Injection Inc.
#337 - 2014-03-24 15:43:04 UTC
What w space needs is conflict generators. Pos is too large and too long reinforced for a gang to attack. Deployables in the same vein as the ess in nullsec would provide excellent conflict generators while not artificially inflating risk. Give people a reason to put thenselves in danger rather than simply changing mechanics to raise risk without a carrot. That way people can steal income and fight over it.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.

Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2014-03-24 15:45:35 UTC
Gustava Risalo wrote:
There is one inherent problem with all of this hurf blurf about Risk vs reward. You gain the ability to roll holes unannounced until you find a nice target you can kill then you have the suprise factor on your side for killing them.




Where is your risk?

You get to pick your targets so you aren't going to take on anything your gang can't handle. You aren't going to roll holes without having the majority of your fleet on standby and have a fairly accurate idea of fleet composition. So where is your risk? You get nothing but the rewards of the kills and the fact that you can make even more isk when you run sites.

Also don't feed me the bs about how you will engange anything or you won't pick a fight you won't win. Thats a load of garbage.



Yeah, pvpers never risk their ships by warping into a sleeper site full without full knowledge of their opponent. When you try to kill someone in sleeper site you don't know how many people they have logged off in their system, you don't know how many capital ships they can bring in on a moments notice. Yes, ganks will still happen but to say that pvp oriented players don't have a risk when they initiate a fight is ridiculous.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#339 - 2014-03-24 15:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. -Fozzie


What would stop us from spamming combat probes to check for new and unexpected ships?

I appreciate it'd be less reliable given the popularity of cloaky fits in W-space, but still, all it takes is the appearance of some unknown probes in system or a lucky bit of timing and we'd at least know something was going on and be able to respond accordingly. "Maybe a K162 spawned" would be near the top of our scenario list, especially if we have eyes on the static.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#340 - 2014-03-24 15:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
Stitcher wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. -Fozzie


What would stop us from spamming combat probes to check for new and unexpected ships?


Cloaking. Especially considering the time a probe scan takes to happen, even on max skills.

What's wrong with "the old trick" of spamming probe scans. Isn't that just sort of... what you're supposed to be able to do? the system was fine before the new system scanner was introduced. I don't agree that there was a problem before, because you had to have probe coverage and actively be scanning.