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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

First post First post First post
Author
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#281 - 2014-03-24 10:06:13 UTC
It's been a long ass time since I've lived in a WH (like years pre-Odyssey) but gotta kinda agree with folks who are disliking the gank potential of this change. ESPECIALLY with mining sites being Anoms. I'm all for killing lazy stupid miners, but that is just a bit much. There is pretty much nothing they can do to save themselves.

Maybe if the mining anoms were changed to Cosmic Sigs that were 75% located so the name pops up, but still requires a probe to finish finding. Would give miners a bit more of a chance.

I'd imagine combat anoms would be fine the way they are. Targets are in combat ships, and Sleepers love to switch targets. So it's all good.... I guess. I mean they are still gonna die, it's PvE fits vs PvP. But least they can shoot back a bit.... What?



Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2014-03-24 10:11:28 UTC
Darren Fox wrote:
One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!


It's been years since I went through a new hole in a non-cloaked ship. Just pointing basic hunting mechanics out, that's all.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2014-03-24 10:13:38 UTC
SpaceSaft wrote:

Previously you had a mechanic that required action,

Now you have a mechanic that requires no action

and now you propose to change it so that action is impossible?

What's your reasoning there? The less people CAN engage with the game world the better?


That's some pretty good summing up there. /thumbsup
dirtydebbs
the wreking crew
#284 - 2014-03-24 10:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: dirtydebbs
Darren Fox wrote:
One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!


That said, I much prefer brawling/fighting over ganks. I'm still not sure how to get more of that without changing the unique nature of w-space.
At the risk of throwing out something that will catch fire: I would be happy if something was introduced that accomplishes the following: "You have something I want, and I can take if you don't defend it. I can take it through active gameplay, and it doesn't involve a 36h timer. If you successfully defend it, I get nothing."

Also, +1 to ore sites changed back to grav signatures.



yup the decloked bit is correct but having x amount of delay would be just plane gankfest, like you said forcing people to fight is what I like and I have thought about this a lot over the years with missed site fights ect, but put it plainly, only way to force a fight and even more so now with the new anchorable items in eve

if you have a npc timer you are unable to warp back to the pos even having it that the pos attacks you ( say due to sleeper site influence you ships id is unrecognisable for x amount of time ) that way they will have to get to a SS for a period of time before safely warping to a pos, the mobile depot gives them a time to quikly refit for a fight or to try and GTFO, but other wise 36hr is ure only way to effectively do it and deploy bug zapper poses to kill them when they re log back in


also if the delay was to be slightly introduced then having all anoms made to scan sites would be the key apart from the highest payd site stil to be a anom
spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#285 - 2014-03-24 10:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: spaceghost69
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.





Then grow balls and apply the same mechanics to local chat everywhere in nullsec !



CCP Fozzie should wrote:


This would obviously be a very significant change to nullsec mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up nullsec life and further encourage the best parts of the nullsec experience.

Schwa Nuts
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2014-03-24 10:26:29 UTC
spaceghost69 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.





Then grow balls and apply the same mechanics to local chat everywhere in nullsec !



Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space.
Nbonga
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2014-03-24 10:31:39 UTC
There shouldn't be a mechanic that you can't really counter. So just delay signatures appearing in overlay and let them appear instantly with probes.
Fellblade
Old Comrades
#288 - 2014-03-24 10:49:07 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I do agree with the idea as it would mean more htfu in wspace. Wspace people can make a lot of isk and the space does not have local. It should be mysterious and unknown. I do understand people position to farm in peace but i do not understand your spirit of wspace.

Chitsa, do you know how much cash people are making in class 1-4 wormholes given the time invested and the current price of melted nanos? No-where near as much as they were making a year ago and a tiny fraction of what C5/6 dwellers can make.

http://theexcession.blogspot.com - A Wormhole PvP blog.

spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#289 - 2014-03-24 10:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: spaceghost69
Schwa Nuts wrote:
Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space.


We already have a delay for escape to a gank, it's the siege timer of our capitals ships...

It's not fair to let no chance to defenders even if they take right precautions :

Nbonga wrote:


There shouldn't be a mechanic that you can't really counter. So just delay signatures appearing in overlay and let them appear instantly with probes.



+1

Recently we loose two dreads in a gank and then we have form up a fleet to **** the opponents :

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=22565239

You can say noobs if you want but we just couldn't save our dreads in siege ...
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2014-03-24 10:57:07 UTC
spaceghost69 wrote:
Schwa Nuts wrote:
Stop trying to make everybody play the game your way. Not all space has to be like w-space.


We already have a delay for escape to a gank, it's the siege timer of our capitals ships...



That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in.
Trinity Faetal
Faetal Interstellar Science Institute
#291 - 2014-03-24 11:02:42 UTC
Finally CCP does something for the WH community.. and that is f*ckign over the potential new people who want to come in and set roots.
only thing this adds is more site runners getting ganked with the added bonus that they will never see it coming or have time to respond.

GG keep messing with wormholes cuz the community is smaller then nullsec blobs.
spaceghost69
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
#292 - 2014-03-24 11:04:18 UTC
Bjurn Akely wrote:
That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in.


Well ok, just remove this bullshit of overlay everywhere in nullsec and go back to the previous system, i have no problem with that...

Are we ok ?
Cylin Rath
#293 - 2014-03-24 11:30:24 UTC
I like the idea! As for the delay I think it should be totally random within a set period.

Add more random variance to all the things:

- Mass limits on holes (Add a way to detect the total mass limit of a hole. Each wormhole class would have would have a range of sizes that a new static could be. Lets make 'hole control' interesting in a new way.)

- Ship allowances on holes (Ut oh, can't fit an Orca through this two bill hole, gotta use something else. Lets make 'hole control' interesting in a new way.)

- Random sleeper spawns near customs offices

- Make the percentage part of wormhole effects random within set ranges for each wormhole class.

- Make the size of sleeper spawns in anomalies more random

- More random wandering wormholes

- More random everything!
Veskin Sentinel
White Pearl Initiative
Podfathers
#294 - 2014-03-24 11:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Veskin Sentinel
Hey!

I'm not a wormhole resident (yet) but I find this very interesting and I think there should be some balance between both sides - aggressors and wormhole residents.

Maybe there should be some dynamic factors added to wormhole appearance on scan and overlay, depending on the wormhole type, the number of ships that pass through it, also the time during which the wormhole has been exposed to probe signals and whether there has been a cynosural field lighted near the wormhole.

So if a large group of ships suddenly pass through the wormhole, it should appear on scan and overlay sooner than if only one ship or a small group pass through. These dynamic factors should also include the ship signature radius, so when ships have larger signatures they should make the wormhole appear on scan sooner. In a lore concept this would mean that wormholes should be really sneaky when they appear, but when someone disrupts them by passing through them they would emit waves that can be easily detected.

This would bring some balance and make it fair for the wormhole residents when there is a large dangerous fleet coming to them.

Same with the cynos. When a cyno is lighted near a wormhole there should be a big delay but the wormhole would eventually appear on scan and overlay, but if a large group of ships suddenly jump in using the cyno, then this timer should be shortened significantly, depending on ship overall signature radius, or their mass, or their count - whatever applies better. This would meant that wormhole residents might be aware of the new wormhole before someone jump through.

Additionally if a wormhole has been scanned down multiple times - it should eventually appear in scan results and on overlay, maybe after a long while.

These dynamic factors should apply whether ships pass in large groups or smaller groups but continuously, meaning that if an aggressor group decide to split in smaller groups and pass through the wormhole one after the other to avoid imminent wormhole appearance on scan, they should not take that much advantage of that tactic and the wormhole would appear on scan after a large portion of their fleet has passed through, but it would still appear later than if they all pass through at the same time.

This would mean that if there is some really big danger to the wormhole residents, presented by some large fleet, they should be aware of it, but if there are smaller fleets, or just explorers/ small group of miners etc. there should be less indication of their arrival.

All these dynamic factors - one by one or combined - should bring some balance and make this fair game. I just hope things like this will be easy for the server to handle. :)

EDIT: I would also add that if some explorer has really good skills and equipment, they should be able to detect the wormhole when spamming the probes. Either way when a new wormhole appears it is important for both residents and aggressors to be aware of it, so if the latter group is looking for new wormholes, they should have the same delay of hole appearance as the ones on the other side.

www.veskin7.blogspot.com - my EVE related blog.

Ssieth
Bonzai Fleet
#295 - 2014-03-24 11:31:54 UTC
OK- my previous posts have been somewhat negative in tone (mainly due to the fact I think the idea is ill-considered) so here's my somewhat-more-considered opinion of what the "problem" is and how to fix it:

The problem at hand seems to be that folks want more fights in WH space and with the current mechanics it's almost impossible to hurt someone who runs for the pos shields (beyond a bit of inconvenience). Why is this? Because to take down fixed assets like POSs you have to do the grind which means committing ships to a stay longer than collapse of the wormhole that brought you to the system. Such sieges are slow, dull and logistically annoying.

So - what is to be done? Introduce content that encourages conflict rather than gimp the content that is there.

Basically we need stuff that is possible to profitably deploy in w-space but which can't be removed easily in the timescale in which it takes folks to get to it from an incoming wormhole.

Examples (please accept that this hasn't been exhaustively considered for problems etc):

Gas-gathering deployable that can be dropped at a gas site and sucks in gas. Takes a while to un-anchor or to empty and can be scanned down readily. Shouts to its owners if someone else tries to take stuff from it or kill it. Give it enough HP for it to stick around a while when attacked and it becomes a point of conflict that is worth attacking for invaders and worth defending for locals.

W-Spacer.  Bittervet. 75% PvP, 25% assorted other stuff.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#296 - 2014-03-24 11:37:35 UTC
MadbaM wrote:
This isn't about GOOD ******* FIGHTS, this is about risk reward!


This is about the wormhole community asking CCP for a dedicated TEAM to deal with and handle wormhole space.

This thread is a mish-mosh of issues with wormholes but it is all falling on deaf ears. So instead of having everybody just throw everything out there in every thread, how about just creating a internal CCP team to look at, review, compile and fix wormhole space as a whole?

Heck, announce it at Fanfest, even have a 4 hour sit-down with the wormhole community, write everything out, webcast it, take in questions, and have that team actually do some work on it.

That would appease the wormhole community MUCH more than suggesting the possibility of change, and you generate increased use of this half barren land.

Yaay!!!!

Tsalaroth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2014-03-24 11:48:43 UTC
I disagree that the "spamming of probes" made things "easier" in WH space. I agree that the sensor overlay DID make things easier, but to eliminate both is also eliminating the other send of your "spectrum of danger".

See, in the real world, if you analyze your risks and take steps to cover those risks, you can potentially profit greatly in a high-risk field.

A LOT of wormhole space is filled with folks like us, finding folks who DON'T d-scan, who DON'T use the overlay or DON'T use probes to look for K162's.

Either you're out of touch with what is REALLY going on in wormhole space, or you're listening to a small number of loud nerds.
stierkobb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#298 - 2014-03-24 11:49:46 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
I would support that K162's not show up on passive dscan immediately, but to delay them being detected by probes is a total no-go. Anyone that is actively scanning should be rewarded for their vigilance, while those who resort to detecting incoming enemies via d-scan overlay should be sacrificed to Bob.

This.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#299 - 2014-03-24 12:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.


Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner.

I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared.

I would also like to point at the post above this one and second it.

tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2014-03-24 12:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Axloth Okiah
1) It is great that CCP is paying attention to WHs and want to make them better.

2) The immediate and automagical propagation of new signatures needs to go, at least in Wspace. This where the delay should be. They should still appear eventually, because its a nice user-friendly thing and we need that to increase the WH population, but they should not appear instantly.

3) Forced delay even when using probes is a bad idea because it prevents people from gathering information even through their own active endeavour. In sum: passive intel is bad, active intel is good. This is why we hate local so much - you dont need to do absolutely anything and it serves you perfect and up to date intel which cannot be avoided. And it is also why we respect combat scanning - its a learned skill that requires effort and patience and can be countered by vigilant victims, so the scanner actually needs to be good to succeed.

4) Delayed signature appearance would favour existing strong groups over smaller ones. WSpace should reward being sneaky and clever, not about getting advantage through numbers by arbitrary mechanics. This would also hurt groups in lower WH classes.

5) Proposed change would make seeding and quick defensive rolling uncounterable and usually even undiscoverable - again hurting active players. I'm especially worried about the rolling part. Engaging someone who just connected to our hole and wants to get rid of it is already very difficult and has very short time window. Preventing us from seeing it and scanning the connection altogether would make it nigh impossible and would make defensive rolling perfectly safe - which is very very bad. Wormhole pvpers do not find their content only in their static, we need incoming connections with which to interact as well.

6) This gets me to the overall aim of the proposal. It seems to be tailored towards ganking c5/c6 escalation runners but it is very narrow and without consideration to both other activities and to other WH classes. Imho the real problem of the often mentioned ease of avoiding pvp in wspace is NOT seeing the new connection (esp. if their automagical apperance on the overlay gets fixed) but how easy it is to get rid of it.

Rolling wormholes with capitals is just too safe, too risk-free. This is what I think needs adjusting. People who want to avoid pvp can currently simply isolate their system from other players and prevent interaction. And even if new connection spawns, unless its already bubbled (which shows enemy presence and removes any surprise) they can simply warp their rolling fleet to 0, jump in, jump out, and its done. Only possible counters are cloaky carrier and/or crossjumping T3 blob and getting trapped, which is less than ideal and highly disproportional (we usually dont mind getting collapsed in, many actually love going balls deep, the issue is that even if you're willing to commit to this highly risky "maneuver" it still is difficult to time it right and requires luck/ignorance).

Wormholes need more interaction between all kinds groups, not giving one of them advantage. We need more connections between all classes and we need those connections to be more risky (but not more difficult) to sever. We need it to be more difficult to isolate yourself, not to actively defend yourself from people you might meet. There were already suggestions for multiple static C4s, more roaming connections, making K162 sides spawn automatically without the need to warp to the sig, even spawing extra connections to wormholes with current sleeper kills. Add to that some new mechanic for riskier rolling (like the warp-in deviation increasing with ship mass I suggested earlier, or anything else) and you have a very good WH shakeup. All these would I think be much better for fixing the "pvp avoidance issue" without collaterally screwing someone or something else up.