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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
Ssieth
Bonzai Fleet
#301 - 2014-03-24 12:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssieth
Liafcipe9000 wrote:

Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner.


No argument there.

Liafcipe9000 wrote:

I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared.


Precisely -if you're willing to do a tedious, simple, manual task then the new mechanic won't have any effect on your gameplay.

Yay \o/ let's make EVE more tedious - that's what it needs.

Liafcipe9000 wrote:

tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not.


Those who are willing to put up with added tedium will be fine. Those that don't will migrate elsewhere (possibly out of the game).

This isn't a realistic solution. Tedium rarely solves problems.

On the other hand - we _could_ add things to realistically fight over rather than making existing gameplay less enjoyable for someone? Is that too radical an idea?

W-Spacer.  Bittervet. 75% PvP, 25% assorted other stuff.

Winthorp
#302 - 2014-03-24 12:33:18 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
1) It is great that CCP is paying attention to WHs and want to make them better.

2) The immediate and automagical propagation of new signatures needs to go, at least in Wspace. This where the delay should be. They should still appear eventually, because its a nice user-friendly thing and we need that to increase the WH population, but they should not appear instantly.

3) Forced delay even when using probes is a bad idea because it prevents people from gathering information even through their own active endeavour. In sum: passive intel is bad, active intel is good. This is why we hate local so much - you dont need to do absolutely anything and it serves you perfect and up to date intel which cannot be avoided. And it is also why we respect combat scanning - its a learned skill that requires effort and patience and can be countered by vigilant victims, so the scanner actually needs to be good to succeed.

4) Delayed signature appearance would favour existing strong groups over smaller ones. WSpace should reward being sneaky and clever, not about getting advantage through numbers by arbitrary mechanics. This would also hurt groups in lower WH classes.

5) Proposed change would make seeding and quick defensive rolling uncounterable and usually even undiscoverable - again hurting active players. I'm especially worried about the rolling part. Engaging someone who just connected to our hole and wants to get rid of it is already very difficult and has very short time window. Preventing us from seeing it and scanning the connection altogether would make it nigh impossible and would make defensive rolling perfectly safe - which is very very bad. Wormhole pvpers do not find their content only in their static, we need incoming connections with which to interact as well.

6) This gets me to the overall aim of the proposal. It seems to be tailored towards ganking c5/c6 escalation runners but it is very narrow and without consideration to both other activities and to other WH classes. Imho the real problem of the often mentioned ease of avoiding pvp in wspace is NOT seeing the new connection (esp. if their automagical apperance on the overlay gets fixed) but how easy it is to get rid of it.

Rolling wormholes with capitals is just too safe, too risk-free. This is what I think needs adjusting. People who want to avoid pvp can currently simply isolate their system from other players and prevent interaction. And even if new connection spawns, unless its already bubbled (which shows enemy presence and removes any surprise) they can simply warp their rolling fleet to 0, jump in, jump out, and its done. Only possible counters are cloaky carrier and/or crossjumping T3 blob and getting trapped, which is less than ideal and highly disproportional (we usually dont mind getting collapsed in, many actually love going balls deep, the issue is that even if you're willing to commit to this highly risky "maneuver" it still is difficult to time it right and requires luck/ignorance).

Wormholes need more interaction between all kinds groups, not giving one of them advantage. We need more connections between all classes and we need those connections to be more risky (but not more difficult) to sever. We need it to be more difficult to isolate yourself, not to actively defend yourself from people you might meet. There were already suggestions for multiple static C4s, more roaming connections, making K162 sides spawn automatically without the need to warp to the sig, even spawing extra connections to wormholes with current sleeper kills. Add to that some new mechanic for riskier rolling (like the warp-in deviation increasing with ship mass I suggested earlier, or anything else) and you have a very good WH shakeup. All these would I think be much better for fixing the "pvp avoidance issue" without collaterally screwing someone or something else up.



This guy gets it.
Peter Drakon
The Drakon Family Enterprise Covenant
#303 - 2014-03-24 12:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Drakon
CCP Fozzie wrote:
...and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience...


When you wrote the best parts of the wormhole experience what did you mean exactly?

For me, this is the unknown, the exploration, the boldly go where no man has gone before part of wormhole life. Every wormhole is a new unknown, a new chance to explore, to find richness, enemies or friends. But this does not include the PvP, because that is everywhere in EvE, from the moment you log in into the game, wormholes are not a special PvP place, at least not any more special than any other game parts.

In my experience in the best games there are no one rules them all kind of win-buttons, but the mechanics are based on a rock-scissors-paper-lizard-spock meta game.

EvE is such a game: every action has a counter, every attack a possible defense. In high there is CONCORD and manual piloting, in low and null there is the local channel, and in wormholes there is the dscan and the probes. Every one of those things needs a player action to work, and any AFK playing is what surely will send someone back into a station to wake up in a fresh clone.

Your proposal tries to make more conflict without any chance to counter it, offering no rock to beat the scissor. I can accept that in your opinion at the moment it is too easy to escape from an attack, though I don’t agree with it, as it needs the defender player to be active, to play, to watch, to scan. If you have to change this, then I would like to ask for a mechanic that involves some action, that has a counter to the scissor’s attack.

Thinking about this problem this is the best I came up:

Make the dscan and the sensor overlay linked, neither automated, but the actual scan triggered from the press of the scan button, and make the scanning precision affected by the scanning skills.

For example the Astrometric Acquisition skill can change how fast a scan can happen after the button was pressed, so when you press the scan button the scan done is not instantaneous, but actually takes a few seconds to finish, and the skill can also effect the delay between the scans. Also, the sensor overlay should not be done instantly and automated, but the scan button should be pressed for an update. Maximum dscan range could be affected by the Astrometric Rangefinding (it could be 14AU only with maximum skills) and the distance and signature types shown in the description could be affected by the Astrometric Pinpointing skill (if low skill then a farther object would be "unkown").

Regards,
Peter
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#304 - 2014-03-24 12:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: MaxDEL
А может разработчики уже начнут думать над более координальным изменением вормхолов, добавлением новых систем, аномалий, возможностей заработка и разнообразия пвп, а не создавать темы форума ради обсуждения какой-то глупости.

- Где нормальный менеджмент ассетов на ПОСах? Разделение прав не только вещей но и кораблей?
- Где расширение спейса, добавление аномалий?
- Где новые ПОСы?
- Где новые классы ВХ?
и т.д. и т.п.

С момента появления червоточин (Apocrypha) Вы (ССР) не сделали ничего нового, что бы касалось только W космоса, зато сделали тему по обсуждению задержки K162 что для нормальных ВХ жителей вообще не имеет смысла.

Это авторитетное мнение русских ВХ-альянсов. Постарайтесь перевести и задуматься. Как-никак в ВХ мы лучшие.
alex 121
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2014-03-24 13:00:55 UTC
Верхушку пищевой цепочки ВХ занимает русское сообщество. Смысла что то обсуждать тут, с теми кто живет в с1-с3 нет
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2014-03-24 13:02:44 UTC
spaceghost69 wrote:
Bjurn Akely wrote:
That's the point he is making. You say 'OUR CAPITAL...'. There needs to be a solution that solves the problem for all classes of holes not just the ones you fly in.


Well ok, just remove this bullshit of overlay everywhere in nullsec and go back to the previous system, i have no problem with that...

Are we ok ?


Yeah, that's my suggestion anyway. Smile
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
#307 - 2014-03-24 13:12:06 UTC
I think it`s not good idea! If K162 will be detected with delay, when you scan with ProbesShocked

It`s awesome nerf of PvE and awesome bust of Covro gangs. For total nerf PvE in WH you must give prop subsystem with InterdictionLauncher&WarpDisraptionField!

In WH no Local, if you do this, WH resedent will be WILD paranoid... This is not normal game, it would be sheer misery. Тhis will cause a decline in popularity WH, if you want it, do it. It not so much will make life in WH more dangerous, how many will force players to suffer, that is. There will be an outflow of players.

If you are not satisfied with the current state of affairs in WH, you can do old system, when K162 see only with Probes. I living in WH and can say: at the moment there is very dangerous and no one will even 50% guarantees that next to you is not a pirate declock.

PS^ Sorry for my eng...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2014-03-24 13:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ali Aras wrote:
Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible?


Yes, it's very possible, but (as talked about at the summit) it doesn't potentially handle the problem as comprehensively as this.

To clarify, delaying the appearance in just the overlay and delaying it in both the overlay and probe scans would likely take a similar amount of development time.


Delaying the appearance of a new signature for the discovery scanner is fine and the way it should but also having a delay with scan probes would be a mistake.

If there is a signature in the system, you should be able to scan it down regardless of how long ago it spawned.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#309 - 2014-03-24 13:18:52 UTC
The core issue seems to be the binary nature of scanning- every signature of interest appears, thus when a new one comes into existence, be it a site or a wormhole, its existence is immediately apparent and only its position is uncertain (which can be rectified by probing).

The only way existence can be made uncertain is to a) stop all signatures auto-magically appearing (perhaps based on strength), b) have a way to confirm a 'weak' signature, but most importantly c) have false positives that must be cleared. A dedicated scanner that keeps bopping false positives is likely to detect a genuine new signature a lot faster, which favours those who put in effort.

Add to this a dynamic signature strength based on, perhaps, expended mass-limit (which could push it above the auto-magical limit), then you have a nice continuum between hard-to-locate unknown signatures and obvious incursions.
Rainbow Eyes
Sora no Otoshimano
#310 - 2014-03-24 13:29:30 UTC
And most importantly, you will make it impossible farm for single pilots, while, as a group of pilots will be farmed almost unchanged...
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#311 - 2014-03-24 13:32:49 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
And Mynnna, please keep your nose out of areas you have no understanding. A WH "ESS" is just a total BS idea given the nature of WH income to begin with.

The idea isn't _that_ bad tbh.
You could explain it along the lines of.. "WH effects prevent the use of normal tractor devices" or something..



No it is bad.

There is a major difference between WH income and 0.0 income.

....

So no WH ESS is bad. Turn the blue loot into bounties maybe, but otherwise no.


Cause apparently you're too stupid to recognize the point was about the structure that notifies locals of player activity. THAT was the point. It had nothing to do with how wormholers make money.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#312 - 2014-03-24 13:33:20 UTC
Schwa Nuts wrote:
So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets.


No, the hilarious part is the nullsec farmers coming out and complaining about losing ships to logoff gangs.

I'd say the split is pretty clearly:

folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor
newer folks: opposed

All the complaints about w-space PVE being boring and terrible is also hilarious, since this would change that.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#313 - 2014-03-24 13:40:34 UTC
Two step wrote:

folks who have been in w-space for more than say 2 years: In favor


In favour of what ? Reading the thread there seem to be a fair number of veterans of w-space who in favour of a pre-odysessy situation where the delay only applies to the sensor overlay (in fact it just going on the first 10 pages it would appear to be a majority opinion).

Quote:

All the complaints about w-space PVE being boring and terrible is also hilarious, since this would change that.


Well, it would give additional reasons why PVE is 'terrible'.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#314 - 2014-03-24 13:43:15 UTC
alex 121 wrote:
Верхушку пищевой цепочки ВХ занимает русское сообщество. Смысла что то обсуждать тут, с теми кто живет в с1-с3 нет
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY
mechform
#315 - 2014-03-24 13:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: mechform
I am a fan of K162 not appearing on passive scan, but i think it should be appear on scan if a player is actively scanning.

Black Power - Brotha's in space unite!

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#316 - 2014-03-24 13:51:59 UTC
I haven't read all 17 pages. So apologies if this has already been mentioned.

But why not have the delay be based off of system class? A K162 is the destination end of a static wormhole iirc. How about 1 minute per class, with class 1s having no delay? So like this:


  1. Class 1 - No delay
  2. Class 2 - 1 minute
  3. Class 3 - 2 minutes
  4. Class 4 - 3 minutes
  5. Class 5 - 4 minutes
  6. Class 6 - 5 minutes


tbh though, this doesn't stop someone from coming into your hole (pardon the pun) from your static or a roaming hole before you go probe it out. So honestly, I don't see how this changes anything in a significant way. If you're going to do something like this, make it apply to all wormholes, not just K162s.

Also, I told you [CCP] how putting grav sites into no-scan-required anoms would screw miners. But no one listened.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Veskin Sentinel
White Pearl Initiative
Podfathers
#317 - 2014-03-24 13:52:34 UTC
Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.

One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.

I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough.

www.veskin7.blogspot.com - my EVE related blog.

Angux Thermopyle
Negative Density
#318 - 2014-03-24 13:55:54 UTC
Terrible idea.

I've lived in WH space for over 3 years and my primary role is PvP.

WH's should reward the vigilant and punish the lazy. Return the mechanics to pre-Odyssey.

Current mechanics reward the lazy.
Suggested mechanics punish even the vigilant.
Pre-Odyssey is the correct balance.

Wormhole income in the lower classes has already been greatly reduced and this change will make them unlivable. I can be on grid with a fleet running sites under a minute after I jump into the system and the fleet behind me...on them in under two. The people running the sites would have less than three seconds to detect me on D-scan as I enter their system. No warning I am there until I decloak to tackle... and by then the rest of my fleet is in warp. Imagine if you are a lowerclass Wormhole dweller and you are having to replace a tengu every week and taking the SP hit. You never get ahead. This is not a good change. Its not about protecting the carebears, its about rewarding the vigilant and punishing the lazy.

If the code is borked and you can't restore the previous mechanics then just leave it alone.

Can we please just do something about POS's and corp roles and stop screwing with stuff that isn't broke. Jeez.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#319 - 2014-03-24 13:55:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole


This please. Fits well with the rest of EvE.

A lone scout can thus be sneaky and useful. But if a fleet is moving in to engage, the local dwellers are notified.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#320 - 2014-03-24 13:56:40 UTC
Veskin Sentinel wrote:
Actually I'm starting to dislike this idea of delayed wormhole appearance on probe scan and overlay.

One good question about that is: What will happen when current wormhole exits collapse and new ones appear? They should be able to be scanned immediately or else people would be stuck in there.

I'm pretty sure that the current mechanics work good enough.


I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here... If someone's trapped in a wormhole after a connection closes, it's either a K162 or wandering connection which will not be replaced in the hole that they are in, or a static connection which will reappear immediately even with the proposed changes...