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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#261 - 2014-03-24 08:04:39 UTC
Hey! Let's make wh-space all about ganking expos and miners - as if much content didn't revolve around pve/ganking already. Idea

More seriously though: I appreciate that CCP seems to be taking an interest in our space (thank you) and is tackling a real issue. As a compromise, I like Arkon's idea about having K162s appear as soon as somebody jumped it - or just going back to the pre-odyssey system.
Loan--Wolf
Ace's And 8's
#262 - 2014-03-24 08:07:23 UTC
Fozzy here is my thought instead of ******* people in whs even more lets **** with k space and make a becon that jams local in null

yes i like this idea lets jam null local and scram warpgates so they dont take you where you want to go i like this


worm holes are fine how they are lets fix null to much isk not enouff reward there
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#263 - 2014-03-24 08:08:07 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
I'm sure this came about from 'leet' pvpers whining about not having enough targets that won't/can't fight back.

W-space has no local. This is it's inherent danger. Don't punish players for being efficient at game mechanics such as scanning down signatures quickly and keeping d-scan up. Stop rewarding whiny pvpers who only have the balls to attack soft targets with easier and easier mechanics.

If a w-space corp is lazy then they will be punished appropriately by losing many many assets.

If you want to fight go to low or nullsec you pussies. Or just live with the perfectly fine scanning mechanics as is. You will find all the pvp you want... Problem is, you are AFRAID. You are the REAL carebears of Eve.


lol! 4/10

No trolling please
Viscis Breeze
Abrupt Decay
Deteriorated
#264 - 2014-03-24 08:11:45 UTC
I feel this has gone from one extreme to the other. Eve is best when encouraging players to be actively engaged, with the old system of using probes there was a reasonably fair balance on both sides. Players could choose to actively have probes out scanning for wormholes and from personal experience lots did not bother. Remove the "passive" signature popup, return to the active - scanning for new signatures.

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Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2014-03-24 08:25:36 UTC
While I am happy that CCP is recognizing the problems that the new scanning changes are causing a lot less PvP I must point out that there are some big problems with the time delay solution. Let me be a bit long-winded:

Before the changes you had to actively look for holes. This meant that lots of people did run sites unsafe, not bothering or having the means og having scanning alts with probes out continuously looking for new sigs. On the plus side they wher pretty safe if as long as they where not running an anomaly.

After the changes anyone in his right mind where pretty safe, in sigs and anomalies. Just keep looking for the new sigs and POS up when you see one. For miners this somewhat made up for the mining sites being removed from anomalies to sigs. Personally I find it way to easy to find miners now, unless they do pay attention and ou find them in a POS. They are after all very vulnerable and having to probe them down as in the old days was very exciting and rewarding - when you managed to do it without them noticing.

In the future:
I foresee real problems with the implementation of hiding new sigs altogether. Especially for miners and entry level PvE runners. The awesome balance of the OLD system was that you could be safe, but you had to have the skills (deep space probes for large solar systems to name one) and you had to divert assets to scan. The current system feels to safe, and delaying the sigs showing up EVEN TO PROBES seems unsafe. Especially for miners as they will have no way of warning what so ever.

My advice:
Bite the bullet. The balance was perfect before. It might be a fluke that it was, but it still was. Just make the sigs not show up AT ALL in the scanner unless you probe them. Re-introduce Deep Space Probes (for those huge solar systems) and move mining sites back to being sigs. Make up any excse you want when the LoreMasters question how this can be. Perhaps the same things that provide Local do provide the sigs showing up?
Ssieth
Celestial Inc
Dracarys.
#266 - 2014-03-24 08:42:08 UTC
Can I propose a simple test before bringing ideas to the table (and facing the inevitable screams from the forum)?

Ask yourself:

1. Will this change increase risk for a group of players?
2. Can that risk be entirely mitigated by some tedious process?

If the answer to both 1 and 2 is yes then assume that the change is just introducing a new source of tedium for said group of players and will have little other effect on the game.

This proposal clearly ticks the above boxes.

W-Spacer.  Bittervet. 75% PvP, 25% assorted other stuff.
Rena Senn
Halal Gunnery
#267 - 2014-03-24 08:55:23 UTC
This is a bad change for smaller groups in w-space that will push fights even more towards the numbers game that they already are. As it now stands, defending groups can use the fast intel to pull their PvE fleet and swap to combat ships and force multipliers to defend their hole, or offer terms of x vs x arranged fights in the case that they are severely outnumbered. They can also blueball, but that's always done under the threat of evictions for gaining a reputation in denying fights.

Changing the sig appearance delay instead limits the defenders to a two second window to catch incoming hostiles on d-scan if they are in range, or leave the PvE group all but defenseless if they're not. This will mean the only reasonably way to defend one's space from an inbound gang will be having many more PvP ready pilots on standby, since a locked down or podded PvE pilot is incapable of mounting an effective defense regardless of their desire for PvP. This gives a disproportionate and unnecessary advantage to larger groups, who will remain just as capable of defending their home holes while now being able to ambush less populated holes with impunity.

I'd rather CCP didn't turn wormholes into another area where nullsec style blobfests become mandatory for success.
Shpongleye
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2014-03-24 08:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Shpongleye
@ CCP Fozzie

+1
I like that you are working on W-space, much appreciated.

The proposed changes will sure make wormhole space feel more dangerous and it will be easier to gank a site running fleet. But is this the change we are looking for? I am all for the idea and would love it as I'm always hunting and never running sites BUT I am not sure this is the way to go. We want wormholers to bring in ISK so that we can get more PVP content by actual brawls rather than ganks.
I definitely agree that K162 should not show up instantly or you'd at least have scan for it, instant spawn on Signature Overlay has to be changed in some form.

I personally would like to see a change that embraces PVP as a fight and not as a gank.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#269 - 2014-03-24 09:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Being someone who bounces between High, Null, and wormhole space I will offer my thoughts as well:

1 - Just remove the sensor overlay and remove instant detection outside of pressing scan.
2 - do not have any delay between the appearance and the ability to detect with probes. The person actively engaged in probing should be rewarded.
3 - outside of probes, your scan range should be limited to your Dscan range. You want people to explore or just be lookie-loos?

It is not clear how a delay to the appearance would improve the game overall.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

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DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2014-03-24 09:09:30 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.


Chitsa, this does nothing to prevent logoff gangs, and does everything to assist the bigger praying on the weaker.

If I am playing dumb, then I deserve to be ganked. My objection to the blocking of active probes from finding K162's (sacrificing at least a highslot, and certainly some attention), is that the weak have the remaining option of not logging in.

Now I am a little dumb; I will remain relatively weak and still log in. I will be the exception.

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Schwa Nuts
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2014-03-24 09:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Schwa Nuts
So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets.

Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think what this change will do is not bigger praying on the weaker but rather stopping the log off gangs in favor of rolling gangs.


In my opinion, this comment is very naive. Logoff traps are an incredibly effective way to rack up 20b in killmails in just a few minutes. They will only continue to grow in popularity no matter what changes are implemented.

_____________


Many people have been talking about finding ways to increase the delay of a K162 appearing. But perhaps the best idea to make w-space less safe for carebears that I've heard come from this debate is to go the opposite route. In my experience, the way to "secure" your wormhole is to roll all your holes before you run sites. This way you know that your static hole has not appeared on the other side, and nobody can jump into you unless a new hole appears.

Perhaps a better option is to make it so that when a new wormhole spawns, it appears on both sides simultaneously, rather than when someone warps to it.

This way, your hole is never truly closed to the threat of someone else jumping into you.
Winthorp
#272 - 2014-03-24 09:18:05 UTC
Schwa Nuts wrote:
So far the bulk of the people I see supporting this change are the large w-space PVP corps -- the likes of AHARM, No Holes Barred, Verge of Collapse, and Sleeper Social Club. This is, of course, expected. All it does is give them an advantage. Hilariously, some of them even want a delay in appearing in local when exiting a wormhole into k-space -- an advantage no other area of New Eden gets..


To be fair you need to look a little further as a lot of us also think these changes as set by CCP Fozie would be inherently unbalanced.

I want to be able to kill farmers but i will want there to be farmers in Wh's in 6 months after CCP makes changes.
Schwa Nuts
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2014-03-24 09:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Schwa Nuts
I like the general strategy of trying to find ways to encourage combat. The notion that w-space should be wildly dangerous is of course a great thing. But often times these changes result in a different reality than was intended. A great example of this would be the recent attempt to introduce more combat into nullsec ratting.

The ESS was originally touted as a way to pinch the ez-mode nullbear in favor of those who are actively seeking battle. But the reality has been different. It took people maybe a week to figure out that you can drop them in an anomaly, kill all the trigger rats, and make it virtually impossible to loot an ESS unless you are in a pod. Of course, if you are trying to steal the ESS, a pod does you no good, because the isk drops as redeemable tokens. So the afk Ishtar ratting crowd just continues to rack up free LP and a 5% bonus to the bounty payout. Roaming hostiles don't even bother warping to them anymore.

Similarly, many people have stated that this change will almost certainly have a consequence of lowering an already low wormhole population. During the ESS debate, Mynnna stated that you must put a carrot on the end of your stick (paraphrasing here). If you make it too difficult to PvE in a system, so excessively leveraged toward the gankers, you'll drive the targets away. You can already see the result of this in systems with a black hole effect -- they are all unoccupied.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#274 - 2014-03-24 09:33:03 UTC
Do it !

In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early.

For C1: The K162 appears after 1 minuts or as soon as a ship goes through including a pod.
For C2: The K162 appears after 2 minuts or as soon as a total equal to destroyer mass goes through.
For C3: The K162 appears after 3 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through.
For C4 : The K162 appears after 4 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. (combo breaker ! BC mass in C4 would enable hard points from T3s to catch stuff before the rest of the fleet jumps through. Which in my opinion would be bad regarding to the already low popularity of C4s.

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Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2014-03-24 09:38:37 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Do it !

In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early.

For C1: The K162 appears after 1 minuts or as soon as a ship goes through including a pod.
For C2: The K162 appears after 2 minuts or as soon as a total equal to destroyer mass goes through.
For C3: The K162 appears after 3 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through.
For C4 : The K162 appears after 4 minuts or as soon as a total equal to cruiser mass goes through. (combo breaker ! BC mass in C4 would enable hard points from T3s to catch stuff before the rest of the fleet jumps through. Which in my opinion would be bad regarding to the already low popularity of C4s.


I don't get it. What is the reasoning behind the different delay times?
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#276 - 2014-03-24 09:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemon Ceed
I would support that K162's not show up on passive dscan immediately, but to delay them being detected by probes is a total no-go. Anyone that is actively scanning should be rewarded for their vigilance, while those who resort to detecting incoming enemies via d-scan overlay should be sacrificed to Bob.
Rena Senn
Halal Gunnery
#277 - 2014-03-24 09:42:27 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Do it !

In the massive isk-farms that are C5 and C6, add a fixed timer. like 5 minutes in C5, 10 minutes in C6. No mass would trigger this timer early..


Flip the situation around and imagine your d-scan not working for 10 minutes after warping into a C6 and you'll see why this idea has a fatal case of the dumbs.

If the delay can't be actively mitigated then it's an uncounterable advantage. If it can be then it's just forcing players to do more busywork along the lines of "click a button every five seconds to not explode" which by itself adds no gameplay value.
dirtydebbs
the wreking crew
#278 - 2014-03-24 09:57:38 UTC
this idea makes my head hurt a lot with good or bad ideas

lets just roll it back a little firstly,

good old times, you had to actively spam d scan also probe scan, yes both 1 looking for new sigs in space I,e, K162s also d scanning looking for log off crews or spy's or cloky hunters logged off in ure system, ontop of that also concentrating on running ure site triggers reps ect,

that is a lot of concentration it also meant trust in ure scanning guys or there alts to do there jobs,

weird new times, simple easy risk free pve'ing, sigs appear in ure face so technically once u have rolled ure static and closed all incoming connections all you need to do is watch ure sigs and click d scan as you know damn well that you cant possibly miss a new sig spawn so the d scan is not totally important anymore,

effectively making solo work so much easier and safer even miners are safeish in there new anom grav sites if there switched on,

personally my point is this,

yeh remove the auto sig trash it hard and make people have scan alts or get the noobie to scan for them make it a team effort again, put the grav sites back in there correct places and make them proper old school scan grav sites,

everyone preaching about 1-5 min delay on sigs, wheres the ying and yang in that? go to high sec and become gankers and not pvpers, w-space are pvpers and people who ARE htfu and should kick people who don't HTFU in the TEETH, if you don't like all these carebears who pos up then do something about it, oh yeh that's right not mentioning names but some people used to in the good old times it was called evictions yeh boring at time I know but it removed them from the problem if you don't like it then sort it or just deal with it,

the timer idea would only be slightly a good idea if 1 it was for 5-6 class whs due to the fleets sizes and I still think it is a very very bad idea as even the guys about to get ganked should have some idea whats going down before there put down.

what im seeing at the moment is this god dam it people keep posing up or logging off,

hmm posing up means 1 they already finished there sites ure to late or 2 your scout was to slow in catching them either or its bad luck deal it it or deal with them force them to fight, there behind a pos ok problem solved remove pos = problem solved,

problem 2 they wont fight ok make them evict them or do what some of us used to do and flood there system with berserker alts to harass them for ever with intention of seeding log off cap alts to gank them in future. or simply remove them for w-space,

rant over that's been building up for a few years now but in a nut shell with w-space

get rid of sig overlay go back to spam probes and d-scan again, put grave sites back where they belong again, hell if you want people to be committed to earning the good old risk reward make all sleepers scram that way ure in it till its over


peace out 07
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#279 - 2014-03-24 10:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceSaft
Only read to page seven, so excuse me if I have missed something that was said p.7-16. Both sides have presented enough reasons and arguments and suggestions on why or why not and if how.

I'm against it because it's bad game design imo:

Previously you had a mechanic that required action,

Now you have a mechanic that requires no action

and now you propose to change it so that action is impossible?

What's your reasoning there? The less people CAN engage with the game world the better?

That just defies all logic. I don't live in whs but invaders must have to do something to gain the advantage. I know you've been thinking about overhauling the d-scan, the local issue is something for k-space but I'm sure it's in this discussion somewhere because instant intel. There is the overhaul of the POS system that players don't know about yet and that will heavily influence the topic as well.

Therefore I'd prefer leaving it as it is to not break it further OR to introduce more gameplay mechanics for both sides to increase depth to the mechanic.

Create a beaconless scan inhibitor that lasts for 5 minutes or less if you must. But don't just remove gameplay.

It's supposed to be the dangerous unknown. Apparently that means for you that defenders that already don't have the element of surprise unless they spam the scan should be disadvantaged even more. This ties directly into "But if they warp to the POS we can't take them on" and following that train of thought you somehow assume content won't happen. What if I told you avoiding a fight can be content too?

This change would decrease player involvement, decrease the possibillity for action in the sandbox and therefore decrease my fun. I'm against it.
Darren Fox
Overload This
#280 - 2014-03-24 10:06:11 UTC
One thing some people seem to forget; Even if the K162 hasn't spawned yet, if a ship has jumped through and broken cloak it is on Dscan. If you pay attention to Dscan and notice a new ship/unknown tag: Surprise, someone has connected!


That said, I much prefer brawling/fighting over ganks. I'm still not sure how to get more of that without changing the unique nature of w-space.
At the risk of throwing out something that will catch fire: I would be happy if something was introduced that accomplishes the following: "You have something I want, and I can take if you don't defend it. I can take it through active gameplay, and it doesn't involve a 36h timer. If you successfully defend it, I get nothing."

Also, +1 to ore sites changed back to grav signatures.