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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Inspiration
#1441 - 2014-03-23 21:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Emuar wrote:
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax


How is that different from current grinding for good refine with stations of specific corporations?
At least now is becomes practical to mine in systems where before logistics would not allow for it by using a POS.

Get rid of that boilerplate in your head and look at the bugger picture instead of i loose this or that. You get many opportunities too, that can more then offset any loss you mention.

Said that, I do agree that the current system of confiscating part of the refined ore as payment is a bad one. Better would be simply to may a small ISK fee like you do for other services.

I am serious!

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1442 - 2014-03-23 21:50:03 UTC
Emuar wrote:
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax


you can buy a corp with the standings for as little as 100 million
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1443 - 2014-03-23 21:50:27 UTC
Emuar wrote:
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax

Yes so that a combat pilot can get just as good refine as a dedicated industrialist right?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1444 - 2014-03-23 21:53:33 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1445 - 2014-03-23 21:54:42 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax


How is that different with stations of specific corporations?
At least now is becomes practical to mine in systems where before logistics would not allow for it.

Get rid of that boilerplate in your head and look at the bugger picture instead of i loose this or that. You get many opportunities too, that can more then offset any loss you mention.

Said that, I do agree that the current system of confiscating part of the refined ore as payment is a bad one. Better would be simply to may a small ISK fee like you do for other services.



my argument is about the POS refining array not being affected by hard earned and learned skills or implants...
the idea has merit but skill should be rewarded!!!
Inspiration
#1446 - 2014-03-23 21:56:45 UTC
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

I am serious!

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1447 - 2014-03-23 22:03:27 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

Then you lose your moon. Depending on where you are, this could be a grave mistake.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1448 - 2014-03-23 22:03:59 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

unless this has changed since I last did it, unanchoring a POS takes an hour.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Inspiration
#1449 - 2014-03-23 22:06:46 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

unless this has changed since I last did it, unanchoring a POS takes an hour.


It depends on the size of the tower, small ones are real quick.

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1450 - 2014-03-23 22:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

unless this has changed since I last did it, unanchoring a POS takes an hour.

I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1451 - 2014-03-23 22:08:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

Then you lose your moon. Depending on where you are, this could be a grave mistake.


If we talk about High sec; you cannot shot an offline POS without a war dec or else you get Concorded, as far as I know. So it should be fine, and during a war dec you don't mine or have a POS up anyways.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1452 - 2014-03-23 22:12:34 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

Offlining a pos is generally not advised. You lose your stront timer doing this.


You can un-anchor them at great speed, it doesn't need to be offline at all, it can....not be there!

unless this has changed since I last did it, unanchoring a POS takes an hour.

I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.



additionally, CCP explained that they wanted refining to be a hard and rewarding profession that u need to skill up and invest time and money in it to be rewarding. having an untrained char be as good as a fully trained with implant char is really frustrating and unrewarding. I was personnaly planning to spend two months to finish my lvl 4 and 5 in refining, but now i ll just upgrade my POS...
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1453 - 2014-03-23 22:15:17 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax


How is that different with stations of specific corporations?
At least now is becomes practical to mine in systems where before logistics would not allow for it.

Get rid of that boilerplate in your head and look at the bugger picture instead of i loose this or that. You get many opportunities too, that can more then offset any loss you mention.

Said that, I do agree that the current system of confiscating part of the refined ore as payment is a bad one. Better would be simply to may a small ISK fee like you do for other services.


that's not about specific corporations that's about standing with npc corporation everywhere (low, high. npc null)

i know about opportunities but i am indeed looking to larger picture, not only about what is good for me or my playstyle.

think about:

people in npc corporations, new players or those who refuse leave it (that's their choice)

someone already pointed that with pos you will get better refine than with perfect skills - that's is not normal

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1454 - 2014-03-23 22:16:59 UTC

If you add up the PLEX cost it takes to train all the skills up vs buy a PoS and keep it fueled, you don't break even on training the skills for almost 4.5 YEARS. This is why its a hudge problem, along with breaking how the game has always worked. Skill is important.

A player fresh off trial should not be able to refine at the same rate as a dedicated industrialist with 15 million skill points in refining.
Inspiration
#1455 - 2014-03-23 22:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1456 - 2014-03-23 22:29:34 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!

A new player can get into a mining barge in 8 days though, join a player corp, and refine at the same rate as the vet without depending on anyone else in the corp to do it for them.

Instead it should be a new player gets into a mining barge in 8 days, joins a player corp, and learns to count on other players to help him out along the way.

The new way it works is broken, it works this way now even with older players refining for newer players. The new PoS mod will break that.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1457 - 2014-03-23 22:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!



first the advantage is not worth it, why spend month learning skills to refine at a 4% loss in a station...
the comparison is sound bcz CCP introduced these changes by saying they wanted to encourage ppl to skill up for refining
why would any current industrialist do that?
when he can just get a POS or use his corp pos and refine at a +4% advantage than a maxed out char wiht implants (in low sec that becomes +8)

it doesn't make sense and undermine the whole philosophy of the change

PS i haven't learned the skills yet and if this stays like it is then i will definitely not learn them!
Inspiration
#1458 - 2014-03-23 22:35:00 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!

A new player can get into a mining barge in 8 days though, join a player corp, and refine at the same rate as the vet without depending on anyone else in the corp to do it for them.

Instead it should be a new player gets into a mining barge in 8 days, joins a player corp, and learns to count on other players to help him out along the way.

The new way it works is broken, it works this way now even with older players refining for newer players. The new PoS mod will break that.


Do you know what you are emotionally asking for?

Suppose your wish comes true. Then you are suddenly required to train all to level 5 to get the max. Where you now likely have nothing trained past level 4. Do not shoot yourself in the foot, just because you feel sorry for your existing now seemingly 'unused' SP. Put away the emotion of loss and start being rational.

And again, only one character in a corporation needs really those skills, do you think new players refine their own ore? You just make thinks more complicated then they need to be and force everyone that want to use that POS structure to train even more then they have now. It is not helping the new guy and not helping the old guy...it is not helping anyone!

I am serious!

Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1459 - 2014-03-23 22:37:17 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Inspiration
#1460 - 2014-03-23 22:39:10 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!



first the advantage is not worth it, why spend month learning skills to refine at a 4% loss in a station...
the comparison is sound bcz CCP introduced these changes by saying they wanted to encourage ppl to skill up for refining
why would any current industrialist do that?
when he can just get a POS or use his corp pos and refine at a +4% advantage than a maxed out char wiht implants (in low sec that becomes +8)

it doesn't make sense and undermine the whole philosophy of the change

PS i haven't learned the skills yet and if this stays like it is then i will definitely not learn them!


You are only looking at part of the playing field. I can tell you who will go the effort and train up to Level 5. People with access to an upgraded outpost comes to mind! There is a choice each player can make for himself, depending on his own situation and that of his corp. You are trying to reason for all using a single situation and then force this on all.

I am serious!